Lesser fighters that you think could have beaten the greats?

[ElJefe]

Bit of a niche one, this.

I was reading through the Foreman vs Vitali fantasy fight thread and read this comment - "While I rank George Foreman leagues higher than Vitali Klitschko, I think this may be a fight where the lesser ranked man prevails."

Made me think, does anyone have other examples of 'lesser' fighters that they think could have beaten (or at least seriously troubled) fighters that most would agree were 'greater' than them? Don't necessarily have to be from the same era.

[BoxBuzz]

Every fighter who ever beat Ali including Holmes,

Every fighter that ever beat Duran including Leonard Hagler and Hearns and Benitez.......on a pound for pound basis. So perhaps not the point of your title here. Not sure Duran could actually beat Hagler.......though if hearns ever became skinny enough to fight in the lw division, he would fall over on his own accord from the breeze of a single punch from Duran.

Those who beat Pep, and those who beat Monzon. (Did Monzon even have an unavenged loss?

Though most of these names are "greats" themselves so I'm not sure I've nailed the subject matter that you intended to cover.

[gilgamesh]

Given B-Hop's troubles with speedy guys I'll bet you could find a few not exactly great, but particularly fast Middleweights who could've given him hell even in his Middleweight heyday.

I mean there's definitely cases where a lesser guy just "Has your number" for whatever reason. Ken Norton and Ali being one of the all time great examples. I don't think hardly anybody would rank Ken Norton anywhere near Ali on the All Time Heavyweight list, but when they were in the ring he was more than Ali's equal, he was more than he could handle.

[DrDuke]

The greatness is achieved not only due to performance in the ring, but also due to the impact on the sport. Guys, for example, like Lewis or Wlad, had been no less professional, than Ali or Foreman, because the skillset is becoming more advanced through time. Furthermore, boxers are becoming bigger and the great big man is better than the great small man (That subject was somewhere in the forum not so long ago, by the way). Ali was more popular in his time, than Lewis or Wlad in theirs, but I doubt very much, that he could have won such kind of boxers. So , that "lesser fighter beating the greats" phenomenon is natural.

[gilgamesh]

The greatness is achieved not only due to performance in the ring, but also due to the impact on the sport. Guys, for example, like Lewis or Wlad, had been no less professional, than Ali or Foreman, because the skillset is becoming more advanced through time. Furthermore, boxers are becoming bigger and the great big man is better than the great small man (That subject was somewhere in the forum not so long ago, by the way). Ali was more popular in his time, than Lewis or Wlad in theirs, but I doubt very much, that he could have won such kind of boxers. So , that "lesser fighter beating the greats" phenomenon is natural.

For that matter Oliver McCall's win over Lennox Lewis and Lamon Brewster or Ross Purrity's wins over Wlad certainly would fit this category.

There's always a guy that provides just the problem you don't need on that night. Eventually.

[BoxBuzz]

Was Holy ever beaten by a superior fighter? Lennox possibly? Bowe for those moments only.......

[BoxBuzz]

Ooops how could we forget W.C. ?........... and I don't mean Fields.

[DrDuke]

The greatness is achieved not only due to performance in the ring, but also due to the impact on the sport. Guys, for example, like Lewis or Wlad, had been no less professional, than Ali or Foreman, because the skillset is becoming more advanced through time. Furthermore, boxers are becoming bigger and the great big man is better than the great small man (That subject was somewhere in the forum not so long ago, by the way). Ali was more popular in his time, than Lewis or Wlad in theirs, but I doubt very much, that he could have won such kind of boxers. So , that "lesser fighter beating the greats" phenomenon is natural.

For that matter Oliver McCall's win over Lennox Lewis and Lamon Brewster or Ross Purrity's wins over Wlad certainly would fit this category.

There's always a guy that provides just the problem you don't need on that night. Eventually.

Well, I wouldn't put those victories of McCall, Brewster and Purrity as examples to prove the words of my previous post. That's examples of what you've said right now - everyone of them luckily did exactly that thing, what they had to do that particular night. Those are examples of lower class boxers beating higher class boxers. And I was talking about the hypothetical match ups between higher class boxers, where one side is considered to be greater because of its impact on boxing, which actually wouldn't be a tool to achieve an actual victory in the ring.

[ElJefe]

Though most of these names are "greats" themselves so I'm not sure I've nailed the subject matter that you intended to cover.

It was more hypothetical really. Maybe it's difficult to explain. So not really a case of which great fighters were beaten by lesser fighters, but more a case of is there anyone you think could have beaten a top fighter had they fought them?

For example (and this one is completely off the top of my head and not a genuine shout), I might say "I think Ray Mercer, although he wasn't as great, would have beaten Mike Tyson had they fought."

As with Vitali and big George they don't necessarily have to have been from the same era.

Gilgamesh's suggestion that there may have been a few speedy guys that could have troubled Hopkins was more what I was getting at, but as I say it's quite difficult to explain.

[gilgamesh]

Though most of these names are "greats" themselves so I'm not sure I've nailed the subject matter that you intended to cover.

It was more hypothetical really. Maybe it's difficult to explain. So not really a case of which great fighters were beaten by lesser fighters, but more a case of is there anyone you think could have beaten a top fighter had they fought them?

For example (and this one is completely off the top of my head and not a genuine shout), I might say "I think Ray Mercer, although he wasn't as great, would have beaten Mike Tyson had they fought."

As with Vitali and big George they don't necessarily have to have been from the same era.

Gilgamesh's suggestion that there may have been a few speedy guys that could have troubled Hopkins was more what I was getting at, but as I say it's quite difficult to explain.

I think I get what it is you're going for, but it's hard to think of examples. I'll try to think a little further on the matter.

[Nile4000]

Saoul Mamby, Howard Davis Jr, and possibly Hilmer Kenty could have beaten Alexis Arguello.

Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, and possibly Tony Tubbs could have taken Larry Holmes, albeit after 1983.

Hector Camacho, Gato Gonzalez, and probably Ray Mancini would've beaten Salvador Sanchez had he moved up.

Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, and possibly Jimmy Young could have taken Joe Frazier after FOTC.

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Dave Sands could have beat Ray Robinson in the mid 50s but tragedy struck and Sands was dead at 26 years of age.

[sweetviolenturge]

Saoul Mamby, Howard Davis Jr, and possibly Hilmer Kenty could have beaten Alexis Arguello.

Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, and possibly Tony Tubbs could have taken Larry Holmes, albeit after 1983.

Hector Camacho, Gato Gonzalez, and probably Ray Mancini would've beaten Salvador Sanchez had he moved up.

Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, and possibly Jimmy Young could have taken Joe Frazier after FOTC.

You really think Mac Foster could have beaten Frazier in '72 & after? Interesting.
Jimmy Young is also an interesting choice. Especially considering that Young didn't really come into his own until '74 - '75. But, yeah, at that point I tend to agree. Same with Lyle. I'd pick him via KO over Joe too.
I'd also pick Mamby over Arguello, but not Kenty. I think Hilmer may have been ahead on points at the time that Arguello caught up to him though. Davis is a toss up though. He certainly had the style to befuddle Arguello even more so than Vilomar Fernandez but eventually, I could see Davis's chin letting him down late like it did vs Edwin Rosario. Tough pick.

[Nile4000]

Saoul Mamby, Howard Davis Jr, and possibly Hilmer Kenty could have beaten Alexis Arguello.

Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, and possibly Tony Tubbs could have taken Larry Holmes, albeit after 1983.

Hector Camacho, Gato Gonzalez, and probably Ray Mancini would've beaten Salvador Sanchez had he moved up.

Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, and possibly Jimmy Young could have taken Joe Frazier after FOTC.

You really think Mac Foster could have beaten Frazier in '72 & after? Interesting.
Jimmy Young is also an interesting choice. Especially considering that Young didn't really come into his own until '74 - '75. But, yeah, at that point I tend to agree. Same with Lyle. I'd pick him via KO over Joe too.
I'd also pick Mamby over Arguello, but not Kenty. I think Hilmer may have been ahead on points at the time that Arguello caught up to him though. Davis is a toss up though. He certainly had the style to befuddle Arguello even more so than Vilomar Fernandez but eventually, I could see Davis's chin letting him down late like it did vs Edwin Rosario. Tough pick.

Definitely feel you about Kenty, he had strong skills, but that chin could be a negative. And Davis, well, it was a close pick, but I could see him edging Alexis, but he would have to be really focused. I read he was 180 pounds and retired a few weeks before he fought Rosario.

[gilgamesh]

Though I don't consider him anywhere near the talent level of Floyd. I think Ray Mancini, and other fighters of that ilk would stand a realistic chance of beating Mayweather.

Trying to outbox Floyd don't work. Jumping all over him, and outhustling him gives you a shot.

Ray would be doing the latter.

I'm not saying he WOULD beat Floyd, but I think he'd have had a realistic shot.

[Nile4000]

Saoul Mamby, Howard Davis Jr, and possibly Hilmer Kenty could have beaten Alexis Arguello.

Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, and possibly Tony Tubbs could have taken Larry Holmes, albeit after 1983.

Hector Camacho, Gato Gonzalez, and probably Ray Mancini would've beaten Salvador Sanchez had he moved up.

Mac Foster, Ron Lyle, and possibly Jimmy Young could have taken Joe Frazier after FOTC.

You really think Mac Foster could have beaten Frazier in '72 & after? Interesting.
Jimmy Young is also an interesting choice. Especially considering that Young didn't really come into his own until '74 - '75. But, yeah, at that point I tend to agree. Same with Lyle. I'd pick him via KO over Joe too.
I'd also pick Mamby over Arguello, but not Kenty. I think Hilmer may have been ahead on points at the time that Arguello caught up to him though. Davis is a toss up though. He certainly had the style to befuddle Arguello even more so than Vilomar Fernandez but eventually, I could see Davis's chin letting him down late like it did vs Edwin Rosario. Tough pick.

Forgive me, didn't address the first part of your answer. I think Mac could have beaten Frazier aftet FOTC. He should have gotten one of those two defenses of Joes during 1972. History would have changed dramatically if Foster had won.

[Kalan]

Errol Spence would have beaten Floyd Mayweather any time
Max Schmeling would have repeated his KO of Joe Louis with an immediate rematch.
Bob Baker or Nino Valdes would have beaten Rocky Marciano
Azumah Nelson would beat Pernell Whitaker in a fairly officiated fight
Carl Froch would have beaten Joe Calzaghe
Mike McCallum would have beaten the crap out of Hagler, Leonard, or Hearns
Antonio Tarver would beat Roy Jones anytime Roy got ready
Larry Holmes would have beaten Muhammad Ali any time
Jimmy Young would have beaten George Foreman in an immediate rematch
At his best Sonny Liston would have beaten the best Ali
Ron Lyle would have beaten Joe Frazier
Terry Norris would have beaten Ray Leonard on their best nights
Gustav Scholz would have beaten Ray Robinson
Lazlo Papp would have beaten Ray Robinson
On the night he KO’d Lennox Lewis Oliver McCall would have beaten Tyson, Holyfield or Bowe
Ingemar Johansson would have beaten Zora Folley
Dmitry Bivol would have beaten Andre Ward
Winky Wright would have beaten Oscar De La Hoya

[Nile4000]

Bobby Joe Young would've beaten a prime Aaron Pryor had Pryor moved up in 1982/1983.

Lem Franklin would upset Joe Louis had they fought in the 1941 time period.

Big John Tate would have beaten Muhammad Ali had he fought him instead of Leon Spinks.

Roger Leonard would beat Ayun Kalue if they had fought.

[Bodyshot3]

I think Kirkland Laing who never fought for a world title and lost some entirely winnable fights might have been all wrong for Lloyd Honeyghan and given Lloyd a bit of a schooling.

It is debatable as to whether Kirk was a 'lesser figher' because here is a guy who beat Duran - so talent-wise he was right up there and in the elite - but he was erratic as hell on the night and when it came to training and lifestyle he was wayward.

Kirk got beaten twice by the hard, super fit and very organised Colin Jones - who was the type of fighter able to expose him - but he would have been so up for the Honeyghan fight and Lloyd took big risks and was often impatient.

All theoretical by the way........as I think Mickey Duff managed both Kirk and Lloyd.

[Counter-puncher]

I think Kirkland Laing who never fought for a world title and lost some entirely winnable fights might have been all wrong for Lloyd Honeyghan and given Lloyd a bit of a schooling.

It is debatable as to whether Kirk was a 'lesser figher' because here is a guy who beat Duran - so talent-wise he was right up there and in the elite - but he was erratic as hell on the night and when it came to training and lifestyle he was wayward.

Kirk got beaten twice by the hard, super fit and very organised Colin Jones - who was the type of fighter able to expose him - but he would have been so up for the Honeyghan fight and Lloyd took big risks and was often impatient.

All theoretical by the way........as I think Mickey Duff managed both Kirk and Lloyd.

Ray was Ricky Hatton without the footspeed, he isn't beating Floyd IMO.

Ok it was an old Mancini but watching a rerun of the Haugen fight reminds you how hottablr Ray was for a good counterpuncher

EDIT, sorry this was meant to be a response to gils post

[Duran1970]

"Bobby Joe young beats a prime Pryor? You might wanna rethink that one...the guy got a gift win over a blind coked out Pryor who lost track of the count

[Nile4000]

Bobby Joe had enough power to make Aaron realize that the 147 route was a mistake. And it would have been worse if Curry, Starling, and McCrory had gotten to him.

[gilgamesh]

I thought of a great example.

Floyd Mayweather Jr. while he was never naturally a 154 pounder he did win 3 fights at the weight class, and I'm sure would be favored over quite a few names at that weight class.

One guy that I'm all, but certain could've defeated him though he's not anywhere near his league overall is James Kirkland.

The size, and the style that Kirkland would be bringing to the table would be all wrong for Floyd.

[Kalan]

I thought of a great example.

Floyd Mayweather Jr. while he was never naturally a 154 pounder he did win 3 fights at the weight class, and I'm sure would be favored over quite a few names at that weight class.

One guy that I'm all, but certain could've defeated him though he's not anywhere near his league overall is James Kirkland.

The size, and the style that Kirkland would be bringing to the table would be all wrong for Floyd.

NO... Because you could see and slip every punch that Kirkland threw... Kirkland was super easy work for Canelo Alvarez, who Floyd Mayweather beat handily... Kirkland was even easier work for Nobuhiro Ishida, who Gennady Golovkin put into Intensive Care with 1 short but savage right hand... Hell would freeze over the day Kirkland beat Floyd.

But I think we know who would have beaten Mayweather.... From all reports Errol Spence knocked the living shitt out of Floyd in sparring.... Floyd held his left hand low (like Leonard did)... Floyd tried to do the shoulder roll under Spence's right hooks and it didn't work for a second... Spence is a lot taller and stronger and just chopped down on Floyd.

Spence slugged Floyd with short ripping right hooks which he drove right down on his temple and ear as Floyd tried to roll the hooks... At the same time Spence ripped Floyd with straight lefts, left hooks, left 45's, and left uppercuts... Floyd tried his best to grab Errol... Spence is too strong for grabbers... He has great techniques for guys who hold and wrestle.....even better than Lomachenko... Spence rips one arm loose and smashes you with that hand.

I HATE referee's who yell "Stop punching... Break" when you have one hand free and you're slaughtering the guy with it... They yell. "NO NO NO NO NO... STOP PUNCHING when I tell you." .... DON'T TELL me... It's a FIGHT ya dumb fk!!! You're not supposed to molest the boxers if they have 1 hand free to punch... You're supposed to let them fight out of the clinches... I swear, Mayweather had more referees in his pocket then any other boxer in the History of the game.

[Counter-puncher]

From all reports Errol Spence knocked the living shitt out of Floyd in sparring.... Floyd held his left hand low (like Leonard did)... Floyd tried to do the shoulder roll under Spence's right hooks and it didn't work for a second... Spence is a lot taller and stronger and just chopped down on Floyd.

Spence slugged Floyd with short ripping right hooks which he drove right down on his temple and ear as Floyd tried to roll the hooks... At the same time Spence ripped Floyd with straight lefts, left hooks, left 45's, and left uppercuts... Floyd tried his best to grab Errol... Spence is too strong for grabbers...

notice the contrast between the first phrase- 'from all reports', Kalan has NOT seen ANY footage of this sparring- to the second description, which seems to be implying kalan has actually seen any of this happen.

he hasn't seen any of this. he just likes to make up quotes that suit him, and imagine sparring sessions he hasn't actually seen and then report on them as though he has seen him.

how many '45's did you SEE Spence land on Mayweather, kalan?

did you enjoy your little trip down fantasy lane pretending to have seen all that made-up stuff you posted in the second paragraph, see him setting the atmosphere kids ,'Spence slugged Floyd... short ripping hooks' - DID YOU SEE ANY OF THIS, KALAN? Post links, please, to prove any of it actually happened.

its the disingenuousness for which kalan has become famous, 'Spence slugged Floyd', indeed. were there audible gasps in the gym, kalan? smell of sweat and leather? come on, set the scene, if you're going to create a fantasy-world at least do it properly. describe sweat flying from Floyd's head that you never saw, describe the thudding sound of Spence's punches that you never heard, and do it all as though you were actually there witnessing it- WHEN YOU WEREN'T