SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[APerno]

or, maybe they just fought tougher opponents.

And maybe that's just a pack certified BS.... Take a close look at Ali and Frazier's super stinky opponents:

Zyglewitz.. Dainels.. Stander.. Coopman.. Evangelista.. Wepner.. Ramos.. Blubber Mathis.. Lubbers.. Blinn.. Dunn.. Neon Leon.. London.. Mildenbooger.. all stink worse than anyone Klitschko, Joshua, or even Wilder fought as champ.. Ali and Frazier specialized in fighting some of the weakest and worst opponents Heavyweight Champions ever faced.

Nice one! Neon Leon!

Honestly, how do you think Neon Leon would have fared against Joshua (the Spinks from the first Ali fight)? I think that Leon Spinks gives everyone a hard fight, including Anthony.

Hey this guy Joshua has got to get off Showtime. Not enough exposure. I heard the offered for a Wilder fight came in low.

[Kalan]

You never said it, but you might as wel have.. AJ beats every Heavyweight that ever lived from what I can tell as far as you're concerned. I've never seen you pick against him or even suggest anybody could beat him until Dubois in this thread.

Nobody can beat everybody who ever lived even if he's the best there ever was... I thought he was going to win all of his fights and haven't picked against him - it doesn't follow that he was destined to win them all... That was my opinion.

[Kalan]

Nice one! Neon Leon!

Honestly, how do you think Neon Leon would have fared against Joshua (the Spinks from the first Ali fight)? I think that Leon Spinks gives everyone a hard fight, including Anthony.

As John McEnroe would say "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!!"

Spinks would NOT have been able to give the top contenders of his day a hard fight... They would have knocked Spinks out early like Coetzee did... Leon needed many more fights to compete with the best Heavyweights (like Marvis did).

And I thought Ali was going to stop Spinks... I didn't realize how bad Ali was til the fight started... He was shitt.

Neon Leon would have been an ice lump on the canvas if he fought Joshua... It wasn't Leon... It was Ali... He sucked...

If Bobick didn't fight Norton and they nursed DB along for an Ali fight... I'm not sure what would have happened.

[APerno]

Nice one! Neon Leon!

Honestly, how do you think Neon Leon would have fared against Joshua (the Spinks from the first Ali fight)? I think that Leon Spinks gives everyone a hard fight, including Anthony.

As John McEnroe would say "YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!!!!"

Spinks would NOT have been able to give the top contenders of his day a hard fight... They would have knocked Spinks out early like Coetzee did... Leon needed many more fights to compete with the best Heavyweights (like Marvis did).

And I thought Ali was going to stop Spinks... I didn't realize how bad Ali was til the fight started... He was shitt.

Neon Leon would have been an ice lump on the canvas if he fought Joshua... It wasn't Leon... It was Ali... He sucked...

If Bobick didn't fight Norton and they nursed DB along for an Ali fight... I'm not sure what would have happened.

What do you think of the $50 million offer? I think it is low for two undefeated HW 'champions' (claimants as of now) - If Mayweather, a blown up Junior Lightweight can muster 180 for a big fight, the numbers up front should be bigger than $50 million. I don't think either if these two fighters has been handled well (promotion wise.)

[Kalan]

Well... I don't think it's a low ball offer... I think it's a serious offer because Joshua hasn't made that much in a fight yet.

Wilder's people are throwing the dice right now and they have people on their side... The Ortiz fight was definitely a big gamble... But the referee asking the doctor to check Wilder to give him extra time to recover after almost getting knocked out by Ortiz shows Wilder has the officials in his pocket like Canelo does... Then the refree made the fighters march to neutral corners before starting the action which was very weird...

Wilder continuously stating that Parker had to knock Joshua out to win shows his team doesn't want to go to England.. That's why the 50 million dollar offer was made... They're going to move Heaven and Earth to get the NSAC involved with this fight... They're going to have VADA testing and it's going to be a lot of bullcrap...

This is a battle of wills... Joshua will make 100MM with the right split if the fight stays in the UK so they can afford to offer Wilder more than a 12MM flat fee... Eddie Hearn knows it's bigger than a 40MM fight because it's for a ALL the marbles... It's going to be the first fight of it's kind because it pits 2 reigning and defending Heavyweight Champions who are undefeated with over 60 fights between them -- for ALL the Heavyweight Championship belts...

Plus both are dynamite hitters who seek the KO.... It's a match made in Heaven.

[MrGuy]

You're right there... Whyte doesn't load up left hooks and get knocked into the ring lights by a guy weighing 217.

Club footed 203-pound Bonavena floored Frazier twice... Anyone over 200 pounds who could punch hard floored Frazier... The bums Frazier fought wouldn't get within a million miles of a Title Fight today... Zyglwitz... Daniels.... Ramos... Stander... Blubber Mathis... Ellis was no bum, but he fought most of his career as a Middleweight... Quarry ate punches and didn't train... Chuvalo was a punching bag who couldn't beat Pete Rademacher... Light Heavyweight Bob Foster??? GTFO

Zyglewitz lost to tomato cans with losing records..

Blubber Mathis weighed 220 for one fight and 280 for another...

Stander had rolls of fat on him.

Ramos lost to a guy who Too Tall Jones CRUSHED in 40 seconds.

Daniels wouldn't get within 10,000 miles of a Title Fight today.

If all those weren't worthy at all, than tell me about the worth of Joshua's 19 opponents of out those 21 scalps.

A few of the more significant Heavyweights who Joshua has vanquished would be:

Joseph Parker was a 6’4” X 236 undefeated Heavyweight Champion 24-0 who beat undefeated challengers…

Wladimir Klitschko wa a 6’6” X 240 ATG Heavyweight Champion 64-4 who beat many World Champions

Charles Martin was a 6’5” X 245 undefeated Heavyweight Champion 25-1-1 who beat Vyacheslav Glazkov, 21-1-1

Dillian Whyte is a 6’4” X 250 Heavyweight with a 23-1 record. He iced Heavyweight Champion Lucas Brown, 25-0

Dominic Breazeale is a 6’7” X 255 Heavyweight with a 19-1 record. He blasted out tough Izuagbe Ugonoh 17-0

Taken together those 5 opponents have 155 wins and 4 of them lost only lost to Joshua. Joshua came through those fights without a lot of damage and will probably fight until he’s 40 while suffering little or no damage.

Most of Joe Frazier's challengers stunk... Ali and Foreman were good--but they were hittable guys who didn’t duck punches well.... Joe looked like a punching bag versus Foreman and lost his trilogy to Ali – getting his head pounded in.

What you're saying is he basically beat nobody, except a washed up overeated former champ. His opponents with their glossy records have trounced bums.

[Kalan]

Even you have to be smarter than that...

Each of Joshua's top undefeated opponents beat tough opponents themselves... While the guys Liston beat were very small Heavyweights and Light Heavyweights who had losses and KO defeats on their records.

[Cojimar 1946]

For the Joshua era my top 16 would probably be as follows. It's hard to know for sure though because the era is not over yet.
1.Anthony Joshua
2.Tyson Fury
3.Petar Milas
4.Joseph Parker
5.Deontay Wilder
6.Otto Wallin
7.Simon Kean
8.Jarrell Miller
9.Kubrat Pulev
10.Luis Ortiz
11.Dominic Breazeale
12.Dillian Whyte
13.Hughie Fury
14.Adam Kownacki
15.Agit Kayabel
16.Tom Schwartz

Overall it seems to have considerable talent but many of the top guys have not fought each other thus far.

[Kalan]

It's ALWAYS been VERY difficult to match the best boxers in ANY division in ANY era.... Risky fights are super tough.

Larry Holmes and George Foreman were very close in age... They were both ATG Heavyweight Champions. They both were had careers that extended beyond 30 years... They never fought...

Ali and Holmes wouldn't have fought if Ali's neurological exam hadn't been finessed by Don King and Dr Howard.... That fight should not have happened -- or should have happened years earlier instead of Ali-Spinks.

Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe never fought.... Bowe threw his Title Belt in the trash can.

Floyd Mayweather and Paul Williams never fought after Williams beat Margarito... That was a natural match-up... Williams also didn't get the Miguel Cotto fight following the Margarito win... He was supposed to get that fight.

Oscar De La Hoya and Winky Wright didn't unify when they were 154-pound Champions at the same time.

Erik Morales never fought Juan Manuel Marquez.

An obvious fight was MIke Tyson vs Riddick Bowe.

Mike McCallum never got to fight Tommy Hearns... Roberto Duran... Ray Leonard... or Marvin Hagler
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKMOqDLVFuk

Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills obviously didn't fight.

Earnie Shavers and George Foreman never fought.

Ken Norton and Joe Frazier never fought.

[Ambling Alp II]

First of all Joshua did beat Klitschko, second Joshua is still improving and gaining experience. I don't think a prime Klitschko could beat the current Joshua. As far as using Corrie Sanders as a gauge of the era it's worth noting that Hasim Rahman and Vitali Klitschko are both from the same era as Wladimir Klitschko (Rahman turned pro in 1994 and Vitali Klitschko in 1996) and they both beat Sanders. So clearly there are guys from Klitschko's era who can beat Sanders because two of them actually managed to pull the feat off. Maybe Wladimir had some sort of stylistic issue with Sanders but using him to claim the era sucked is clearly nonsense otherwise he would have repeated his success against these two guys.

Also, the best 90s heavyweight was knocked out by someone from Wladimir's era who barely even rates in the top 10 and who lost in his prime to Oleg Maskaev and John Ruiz.

The problem for someone like Foreman is he was not particularly hard to hit. Joshua clearly hits hard and has demonstrated his power against guys like Kevin Johnson and Dillian Whyte who have shown themselves to be durable and difficult to stop. Joshua is almost certainly the biggest hitter Foreman has faced and also possesses advantages in size, strength and reach.

First of all I think a prime Klitschko would have beaten Joshua because a way past his prime almost did. That is common sense. Jousha looked awful in his last fight so we shall see how much he is improving. So far, he has not proven anything.
Sanders losses to Rahman and Vitaly Klitschko doen't man anything because he was not a contender during the 1990s. Them beating him doesn't count for anything.
If you consider Lewis the best of the 1990s ( arguable) he was past it by the time he fought Rahman.
Joshua would not be the hardest fighter Foreman ever fought. Going by his last two fights there is a huge question whether he can punch at all. And no, being big doesn't mean you can punch.

[Kalan]

None of the above post makes any sense.

Klitschko didn't almost beat Joshua... Instead he was knocked down 3 X and knocked out... Klitschko wasn't way past his prime. Many thought he fought the best fight of his career. He fought a dramatic fight and scored a knockdown.. Tony Galento knocked Joe Louis down, but it doesn't mean he was threatening to win the fight.. Pete Rademacher knocked Floyd Patterson down and was winning the fight to that point. Then he got smeared.

Joshua did not look awful versus Parker... He used a brilliant jab and dominated the fight.. Anybody who thinks Joshua can't punch "at all" is freakin' stupid.. He he has a higher KO ratio than anyone from the 70's, 80's, or 90's and Parker has been acknowledged as somebody with an cast iron jaw... No retired Heavyweight Champ knocked out everybody.

Lewis was not past it when he fought Rahman... He was getting better, which was apparent when he fought Tyson.

Joshua would certainly be Foreman's toughest opponent.... Ali lacked the punching power and body attack... Young lacked the size, punching power, and range.... Frazier was too small, and was so easy for a big, powerful Heavyweight to nail it was ludicrous.... Norton led with his head and was wide open for big right hands.... Holyfield was a Cruiserweight who ate right hands from big, tall, aggressive boxers....Bowe knocked Ev down 3 X..... Moorer was easy to rip with straight punches... Holyfield exposed Moorer in their rematch -- Tua couldn't miss Moorer, ending their fight in 20 seconds.

[gilgamesh]

Put Anthony Joshua in a fantasy match and watch Kalan go

[Kalan]

Why don't you take your stupid trolling posts and piss off??? If you don't have an argument GTFO!!!!

[gilgamesh]

"Why don't you take your stupid trolling posts and piss off"

I could say the same thing to you, but instead I inject a little humor into it by putting up a picture of a silly monkey wind up toy.

Tomato, Tomotto.

[Kalan]

You could also screw off.... You're as funny as a heart attack.

[gilgamesh]

Wasn't a personal attack Kalan, merely a reference to the fact that you've banged on and on for 18 pages on this thing and show no sign of stopping. Most threads peter out after about 4 or 5 pages, but you just keep on going...like a wind up toy...hence the reference.

[gilgamesh]

You could also screw off.... You're as funny as a heart attack.

I agree, but only if you mean THIS Heart Attack...which was pretty damn funny

[MrGuy]

You could also screw off.... You're as funny as a heart attack.

Maybe shot Klinchko looked good because his comp was overrated.

[Kalan]

You could also screw off.... You're as funny as a heart attack.

I agree, but only if you mean THIS Heart Attack...which was pretty damn funny

Heart attacks aren't funny.... I prefer you stay on topic instead of trying to be a comedian.... Either that or piss off.

[gilgamesh]

You could also screw off.... You're as funny as a heart attack.

I agree, but only if you mean THIS Heart Attack...which was pretty damn funny

Heart attacks aren't funny.... I prefer you stay on topic instead of trying to be a comedian.... Either that or piss off.

[Kalan]

Another trolling post.... You're stinking up the thread because you have ZERO to contribute...

[gilgamesh]

Another trolling post.... You're stinking up the thread because you have ZERO to contribute...

You're the only person on this entire forum I ever pester like this Kalan.

You have single handedly ruined this section of the forum which used to have some of the most stimulating and well thought conversation about the sport anywhere on the forum.

With you around it's become "Tall beats All".

When you first came along with the Wilt can beat Ali stuff you pretty much guaranteed that I'd never respect anything you ever have to say about anything.

So enjoy reaping what you have sewn....or don't enjoy it...I don't care. I'll enjoy it for ya.

[Kalan]

I never said "TALL beats ALL" .... That's the most insidiously stupid comment from you yet Gilgmesh

I always maintained that athleticism combined with size, work ethic, and coaching almost guarantees a Heavyweight success... Chamberlain was the world's greatest athlete and he also happened to be massively BIG!!!! not just TALL.

There are thousands of 7-footers in the world.... Almost NONE of them can make the NBA... Chamberlain was not only tall, but he was the best athlete in the history of the NBA and maintains more NBA records than anyone else... Who else could qualify to fight Muhammad Ali if they've never had a fight??? ... Just about nobody... That fight was taken very seriously and legal teams were hired to draw up a contract... Ali and Chamberlain promoted their fight on TV.... IT WAS REAL!!! Why are they on television promoting a Heavyweight Championship Fight if the public wasn't interested???? They wouldn't be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s

BTW... If you watch the above video, you'll see that Ali came up with all kinds of excuses for not signing to fight Chamberlain... He says... "I accept your challenge... As soon as I fight a few more contenders... IF I best THEM" .... Yeah right!!

When that excuse wouldn't fly any longer Ali said that he couldn't get his manager Herbert Muhammad to agree to the fight....and he would only sign to fight Wilt if Herbert Muhammad allowed him to sign ..... Yeah right!!

BTW.... NFL great Jim Brown was excited about Chamberlain vs Ali... He always said Chamberlain was the greatest athlete in the world. He raced Wilt once in a footrace and was blown away, and Wilt could handle weights that Brown couldn't imagine. Brown wanted to manage Chamberlain for the fight and set up his training camp. Brown bought Ali's final excuse... Ali said he wouldn't sign the contract unless his manager Herbert Muhammad agreed.... Start this video at 1:20 and listen for 30 seconds to 1:50... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyrP3HqkpRw

[Cojimar 1946]

Joshua has demonstrated his power by stopping guys who are hard to stop. He is the only one to stop Dillian Whyte, the first to stop Kevin Johnson and the first to stop Dominic Breazaele and Gary Cornish. His credentials as a puncher seem pretty solid so far. The only guy he failed to knockout, Parker, has never been stopped so we don't know how durable he is.

[Cojimar 1946]

Also I don't see anything to suggest Lewis was past his prime against Rahman. He looked fine in his previous fight and following fights. I would say Lewis's peak was 1995-2002 (Morrison fight to the Tyson fight). He was world-class as far back as 1991 but seems to have improved under Stewart. The Klitschko fight appears to be the first fight where you could argue he was slipping.