SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[oogiebe]

Geez, we've been through this over and over again. If not for the cut, Lewis was coming on anyway and would have probably won. I know Kalan is not refuting that, but that clip showed either an inadvertent or purposeful thumb along the eyelid. I doubt Lennox had the kind of body control to throw a punch with a perfect twist into the eyelid. JMHO.

[Kalan]

Geez, we've been through this over and over again. If not for the cut, Lewis was coming on anyway and would have probably won. I know Kalan is not refuting that, but that clip showed either an inadvertent or purposeful thumb along the eyelid. I doubt Lennox had the kind of body control to throw a punch with a perfect twist into the eyelid. JMHO.

Even an accidental butt or thumb strike goes to the scorecards.. And Lewis ground his head and hair into the cut.

Lewis was NOT coming on... The last punch Lewis threw as WELL AFTER THE BELL RANG... The commentators noted that Lewis was so tired he could barely stand... BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THE FIGHT WAS STOPPED ON CUTS... Lewis was a practiced dirty fighter... He was known for dirty fighting, particularly holding and hitting... When Guerrero was holding and hitting Berto with impunity (with Lou Moret as referee) Max Kellerman shouted "SHADES OF LENNOX LEWIS!!"

Saying Lewis would have won if Vitali wasn't cut is speculative... Vitali was winning on all scorecards and he was never knocked down in his entire career... Lewis was FLATTENED TWICE so Vitali had a big advantage in the chin department. He had Lewis rocking all over the ring in the 1st two rounds from big right hands -- before he was half blinded.

[oogiebe]

Geez, we've been through this over and over again. If not for the cut, Lewis was coming on anyway and would have probably won. I know Kalan is not refuting that, but that clip showed either an inadvertent or purposeful thumb along the eyelid. I doubt Lennox had the kind of body control to throw a punch with a perfect twist into the eyelid. JMHO.

Even an accidental butt or thumb strike goes to the scorecards.. And Lewis ground his head and hair into the cut.

Lewis was NOT coming on... The last punch Lewis threw as WELL AFTER THE BELL RANG... The commentators noted that Lewis was so tired he could barely stand... BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THE FIGHT WAS STOPPED ON CUTS... Lewis was a practiced dirty fighter... He was known for dirty fighting, particularly holding and hitting... When Guerrero was holding and hitting Berto with impunity (with Lou Moret as referee) Max Kellerman shouted "SHADES OF LENNOX LEWIS!!"

Saying Lewis would have won if Vitali wasn't cut is speculative... Vitali was winning on all scorecards and he was never knocked down in his entire career... Lewis was FLATTENED TWICE so Vitali had a big advantage in the chin department. He had Lewis rocking all over the ring in the 1st two rounds from big right hands -- before he was half blinded.

a bit dramatic, but not off base.

[gilgamesh]

Well neutral corner, would've only delayed the count nothing more. Liston took a dive.

[MrGuy]

Congrats your vid proved it opened from a straight right.

What I proved is you're blind as a bat.... If that right hand was straight....so were Liberace and Rock Hudson.

Lewis's right hand thumb strike was clearly NOT thrown from the shoulder... It was swatted from the elbow and his wrist rotated as the thumb caught the corner of the eye as the thumb passed the left side of Vitali's head.... Lewis then swiped his thumb the other direction to do more damage.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

[Kalan]

Well neutral corner, would've only delayed the count nothing more. Liston took a dive.

You don't get up and resume fighting if you intend to take a dive.... If you did that would be beyond idiotic... You stay down until the count is administered by the referee if you intend to tank the fight.

[gilgamesh]

Well neutral corner, would've only delayed the count nothing more. Liston took a dive.

You don't get up and resume fighting if you intend to take a dive.... If you did that would be beyond idiotic... You stay down until the count is administered by the referee if you intend to tank the fight.

Usually it doesn't take the referee 40 seconds to count to 10. Liston rolled around on the mat long enough for a 15 count.

[Kalan]

Congrats your vid proved it opened from a straight right.

What I proved is you're blind as a bat.... If that right hand was straight....so were Liberace and Rock Hudson.

Lewis's right hand thumb strike was clearly NOT thrown from the shoulder... It was swatted from the elbow and his wrist rotated as the thumb caught the corner of the eye as the thumb passed the left side of Vitali's head.... Lewis then swiped his thumb the other direction to do more damage.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

I guess trying to think makes you woozy and you need a nap... Take a good long one...

[Kalan]

Well neutral corner, would've only delayed the count nothing more. Liston took a dive.

You don't get up and resume fighting if you intend to take a dive.... If you did that would be beyond idiotic... You stay down until the count is administered by the referee if you intend to tank the fight.

Usually it doesn't take the referee 40 seconds to count to 10. Liston rolled around on the mat long enough for a 15 count.

Usually a boxer goes to the neutral corner as instructed.... And if he doesn't the neutral corner rule is in effect and the count is suspended... There was not supposed to BE ANY count until Ali complied with the neutral corner rule...

And you're full of hogwash... Liston wasn't down for 40 seconds... He got up as soon as Ali was at a safe distance and he resumed fighting... Why did Walcott, Ali, and Liston all assume the fight was still on???? .... Cuz Liston got no count and the neutral corner rule was in effect that's why... Walcott just had his head up his ass and listened to Fleischer, who wasn't a boxing official... This was the first Heavyweight Championship Fight decided by a non-official.

[gilgamesh]

Liston would've just found a soft spot on the canvas a few seconds later even if it hadn't stopped when it did. He took a dive.

[Kalan]

More hogwash from you.... Liston trained for many months and was in perfect condition... The knockdown was real, but he wasn't hurt... He easily slipped and ducked Ali's follow up punches showing his reflexes were intact...

He had no reason in the world to deliberately deny himself the most valuable prize in sports.

[MrGuy]

More hogwash from you.... Liston trained for many months and was in perfect condition... The knockdown was a real, but he wasn't hurt... He easily slipped and ducked Ali's follow up punches showing his reflexes were intact...

He had no reason in the world to deliberately deny himself the most valuable prize in sports.

Except he knew he was going to get another beat down. Regarding Lewis didnt come in at a career high for Vitali? Not his best.

[Kalan]

He didn't get a beat down when he had one arm out of commission in the first fight... The scorecards were even at the end of the fight.... With 2 good arms he expected to do a lot better... There was no beatdown coming.

[BoxBuzz]

He didn't get a beat down when he had one arm out of commission in the first fight... The scorecards were even at the end of the fight.... With 2 good arms he expected to do a lot better... There was no beatdown coming.

Ignore Kalan, and just you tube Liston's next fight......Watch it carefully.....what you will see is the same Liston that lost to Ali 2X not one iota better than he was in his last two fights. He wins against someone with no real chance.....drop Ali in there and Liston gets Clowned again. Well unless they can get some liniment on the ol gloves....then he can probably look effective again for a round or two.

And that's the name of that tune.

Now you can believe Kalan, or you can believe your own lyin' eyes.

[MrGuy]

He didn't get a beat down when he had one arm out of commission in the first fight... The scorecards were even at the end of the fight.... With 2 good arms he expected to do a lot better... There was no beatdown coming.

He faked the bad arm because the Lip embarrassed him.

[oogiebe]

He didn't get a beat down when he had one arm out of commission in the first fight... The scorecards were even at the end of the fight.... With 2 good arms he expected to do a lot better... There was no beatdown coming.

Ignore Kalan, and just you tube Liston's next fight......Watch it carefully.....what you will see is the same Liston that lost to Ali 2X not one iota better than he was in his last two fights. He wins against someone with no real chance.....drop Ali in there and Liston gets Clowned again. Well unless they can get some liniment on the ol gloves....then he can probably look effective again for a round or two.

And that's the name of that tune.

Now you can believe Kalan, or you can believe your own lyin' eyes.

That would be interesting...I'm going there now.

[Kalan]

He didn't get a beat down when he had one arm out of commission in the first fight... The scorecards were even at the end of the fight.... With 2 good arms he expected to do a lot better... There was no beatdown coming.

Ignore Kalan, and just you tube Liston's next fight......Watch it carefully.....what you will see is the same Liston that lost to Ali 2X not one iota better than he was in his last two fights. He wins against someone with no real chance.....drop Ali in there and Liston gets Clowned again. Well unless they can get some liniment on the ol gloves....then he can probably look effective again for a round or two.

And that's the name of that tune.

Now you can believe Kalan, or you can believe your own lyin' eyes.

You're extremely selective aren't you Buzzbox???

You KNOW DAMNED WELL Liston was rusty as HELL for Zech... He boxed a total of 3 rounds in 3 years before he fought Ali... But between Howard King and Gerhard Zech -- a span of 76 months -- Liston fought a total of 10 rounds... That's one round every 7.6 months for a period of well over 6 years... Many of those were shortened rounds..

That's not enough action to keep ANY boxer sharp - much less an aging warrior... With the 7 rounds Liston had against Zech he looked a lot sharper against Amos Johnson the following month... Why not use THAT fight to gauge him??? A year earlier Johnson beat Henry Cooper in England before the Ali's defense against Cooper... Liston DESTROYED Johnson.

Or better yet... How about the Patterson fight which Liston fought before Ali??? ... Liston was closer to his prime... Drop Ali in there instead of Patterson and Ali gets smashed with a lot of those sharp devastating punches.

Liston continued to look very sharp for a dozen fights following the Amos Johnson fight... Age eventually caught up with Sonny the same way it caught up to Ali... He was at least 37 against Leotis Martin ... and if you believe that?

[gilgamesh]

He didn't get a beat down when he had one arm out of commission in the first fight... The scorecards were even at the end of the fight.... With 2 good arms he expected to do a lot better... There was no beatdown coming.

Ignore Kalan, and just you tube Liston's next fight......Watch it carefully.....what you will see is the same Liston that lost to Ali 2X not one iota better than he was in his last two fights. He wins against someone with no real chance.....drop Ali in there and Liston gets Clowned again. Well unless they can get some liniment on the ol gloves....then he can probably look effective again for a round or two.

And that's the name of that tune.

Now you can believe Kalan, or you can believe your own lyin' eyes.

[Kalan]

He didn't get a beat down when he had one arm out of commission in the first fight... The scorecards were even at the end of the fight.... With 2 good arms he expected to do a lot better... There was no beatdown coming.

Ignore Kalan, and just you tube Liston's next fight......Watch it carefully.....what you will see is the same Liston that lost to Ali 2X not one iota better than he was in his last two fights. He wins against someone with no real chance.....drop Ali in there and Liston gets Clowned again. Well unless they can get some liniment on the ol gloves....then he can probably look effective again for a round or two.

And that's the name of that tune.

Now you can believe Kalan, or you can believe your own lyin' eyes.

You're extremely selective aren't you Buzzbox???

You KNOW DAMNED WELL Liston was rusty as HELL for Zech... He boxed a total of 3 rounds in 3 years before he fought Ali... But between Howard King and Gerhard Zech -- a span of 76 months -- Liston fought a total of 10 rounds... That's one round every 7.6 months for a period of well over 6 years... Many of those were shortened rounds..

That's not enough action to keep ANY boxer sharp - much less an aging warrior... With the 7 rounds Liston had against Zech he looked a lot sharper against Amos Johnson the following month... Why not use THAT fight to gauge him??? A year earlier Johnson beat Henry Cooper in England before the Ali's defense against Cooper... Liston DESTROYED Johnson.

Or better yet... How about the Patterson fight which Liston fought before Ali??? ... Liston was closer to his prime... Drop Ali in there instead of Patterson and Ali gets smashed with a lot of those sharp devastating punches.

Liston continued to look very sharp for a dozen fights following the Amos Johnson fight... Age eventually caught up with Sonny the same way it caught up to Ali... He was at least 37 against Leotis Martin ... and if you believe that?

[gilgamesh]

Gotta give yourself your own thumbs up?

[Kalan]

Gotta give yourself your own thumbs up?

Beats you coming in and wiping out my post jackass.

[gilgamesh]

Gotta give yourself your own thumbs up?

Beats you coming in and wiping out my post jackass.

Wiping out your post?

[oogiebe]

Gotta give yourself your own thumbs up?

Ouch...ran into that one...

[Sidney Carton]

Sonny Liston, a solid HW for his time.

That's a winner.

[APerno]

Well neutral corner, would've only delayed the count nothing more. Liston took a dive.

Liston didn't take a dive. Liston tried to take a dive but Ali wouldn't let him. I have always been of the mind that when Ali went over an taunted Liston it was because he realized Liston was going to lay down.