SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[oogiebe]

But beyond dispute.... I separated fact from fiction.

Could be. The Black Muslim and Mob stuff was never proved. So long ago, I'm not sure why we've taken up so much space on it. Good thing it's not a JFK thread!!!! lol!

[Kalan]

When people tell you to save your moral indignation for whore monger Jimmy Swaggart... because they don't want to see justice done or see justice served – then it gets a little rich.... I had plenty of contempt for Swaggart and he has nothing to do with this.... Liston's been smeared as a quitter and a tanker for 2 generations... High time to set the record straight.

The facts as thoroughly as they can be known... since we’re not God.

Ali defied the referee’s order to go to a neutral corner... Walcott didn’t enforce the neutral corner rule by pausing the count... Walcott never issued a count to Liston because he was busy trying to get Ali to a neutral corner... Liston got up from the knockdown and resumed fighting... Liston prove to be in full control of his body and reflexes by ducking and slipping every follow up punch, showing he was unfazed by the knockdown punch... Nat Fleischer hated Liston and interfered with the officiating... The Time Keeper was unfamiliar with the neutral corner rule and incorrectly marked the end of the fight at 1 minute into the round... The boxing commissioners present blew their job by not immediately notifying the time keeper, referee, and judges of the neutral corner rule and ordering the fight resumed... The Maine Boxing Commission covered the asses of their inept commissioners by making Liston the fall guy... Liston broke no rules but had his license to fight revoked for years in all 50 states... Men like Cus D’Amato came to Liston’s defense and tried in vain to talk sense to the commissioners who were immovable... Foreign boxing commissions didn’t recognize the suspension and eventually allowed Liston to make a living fighting, stating that the neutral corner rule wasn’t enforced and Liston resumed fighting because Ali, Liston, and Walcott all assumed the fight was still on.

Here is the speculation and bull-crap for which there is NO evidence.

Liston took a dive... Liston wanted to take a dive... Liston was about to take a dive... If the fight had continued Liston would have gone down again and tanked the fight... Ali was in full control of the fight and Liston was no match for him anyway so it didn’t matter that the officials all blew their jobs and created the biggest debacle of all time... Liston’s wife was kidnapped... Black Muslim assassins were planted in the audience... Liston was threatened with death if he didn’t throw the fight... Liston was scared to death there was an assassin in the audience and wanted to get the Hell out of there.

...um...wow...a lot to swallow.

People are going to believe what they want to believe... Very few people want to be confused by facts... That's why we have so many ideologies, religions, political parties, and it takes forever and ever to get political resolutions to problems. You know we went over and over on Johnson-Willard but people still think the temperature was hotter than Hell that day.

[gilgamesh]

I believe my own two eyes. I've SEEN Ali vs Liston 2. Multiple times, and multiple times I've seen Liston take a dive. Nothing anybody can say is gonna tell me different than what my own 2 eyes tell me.

[oogiebe]

I believe my own two eyes. I've SEEN Ali vs Liston 2. Multiple times, and multiple times I've seen Liston take a dive. Nothing anybody can say is gonna tell me different than what my own 2 eyes tell me.

Believe me, he (Liston) was a horrible actor...I concur and don't GAS about anyone else's opining, no matter how incessant or voluminous or belligerent.

[DrDuke]

I believe my own two eyes. I've SEEN Ali vs Liston 2. Multiple times, and multiple times I've seen Liston take a dive. Nothing anybody can say is gonna tell me different than what my own 2 eyes tell me.

I tend to agree. Liston didn't look dazed, but just ineptly preteding to be so.

[oogiebe]

I believe my own two eyes. I've SEEN Ali vs Liston 2. Multiple times, and multiple times I've seen Liston take a dive. Nothing anybody can say is gonna tell me different than what my own 2 eyes tell me.

I tend to agree. Liston didn't look dazed, but just ineptly preteding to be so.

LOL! More pretending than acting! Better said!

[APerno]

. . . Quarry got up in the Chuvalo fight and then decided to take a 9-count. That was not a veteran move. Either you get up quickly because you’re unhurt – or you wait out the count as Tunney did to give yourself more time to recover. . .

Off topic, but you made me think (I know you think more highly than most regarding Carnera.) - Recently I was watching the Bear fight and thought Carnera would have been better served had there been a mandatory eight count. He jumped up too quickly after the first knockdown and virtually doomed himself, taking too many punches while he was still groggy. (He repeated the 'bad' move for several knockdowns.)

It goes to show that Tunney was smart at all aspects of the game.

[oogiebe]

. . . Quarry got up in the Chuvalo fight and then decided to take a 9-count. That was not a veteran move. Either you get up quickly because you’re unhurt – or you wait out the count as Tunney did to give yourself more time to recover. . .

Off topic, but you made me think (I know you think more highly than most regarding Carnera.) - Recently I was watching the Bear fight and thought Carnera would have been better served had there been a mandatory eight count. He jumped up too quickly after the first knockdown and virtually doomed himself, taking too many punches while he was still groggy. (He repeated the 'bad' move for several knockdowns.)

It goes to show that Tunney was smart at all aspects of the game.

Tunney may have been the most intelligent HW of all time. Brilliant ring technician. Great point!

[APerno]

P.S. I think I remember one fighter (on a lesser card; ESPN in the '80s) getting burned because he rose quickly from a knockdown and then decided it was better to 'take a knee.' The referee waived off the fight; technically he went back down after having risen.

[oogiebe]

P.S. I think I remember one fighter (on a lesser card; ESPN in the '80s) getting burned because he rose quickly from a knockdown and then decided it was better to 'take a knee.' The referee waived off the fight; technically he went back down after having risen.

I'm somewhat surprised to hear that. Was it considered controversial? I've seen fighters do that with no impact. Hmmm...it goes against the flavor of the rule which is safety. The fighter went to one knee without a punch thrown, so it's a curiosity to me. Anyone know the ruling on that sort of thing?

[APerno]

P.S. I think I remember one fighter (on a lesser card; ESPN in the '80s) getting burned because he rose quickly from a knockdown and then decided it was better to 'take a knee.' The referee waived off the fight; technically he went back down after having risen.

I'm somewhat surprised to hear that. Was it considered controversial? I've seen fighters do that with no impact. Hmmm...it goes against the flavor of the rule which is safety. The fighter went to one knee without a punch thrown, so it's a curiosity to me. Anyone know the ruling on that sort of thing?

There is a common rule if a fighter gets knockdown, gets up, and then falls back down he is considered out. The key word of course is "falls" - this kid chose to take a knee to receive his mandatory eight count. (Which is kinda an athletic move, 'taking a knee.")

It was way too small of a card to create any controversy. I.e. no one cared.

On the other hand Zab Judah is a good example of why the rule should exist.

[oogiebe]

P.S. I think I remember one fighter (on a lesser card; ESPN in the '80s) getting burned because he rose quickly from a knockdown and then decided it was better to 'take a knee.' The referee waived off the fight; technically he went back down after having risen.

I'm somewhat surprised to hear that. Was it considered controversial? I've seen fighters do that with no impact. Hmmm...it goes against the flavor of the rule which is safety. The fighter went to one knee without a punch thrown, so it's a curiosity to me. Anyone know the ruling on that sort of thing?

There is a common rule if a fighter gets knockdown, gets up, and then falls back down he is considered out. The key word of course is "falls" - this kid chose to take a knee to receive his mandatory eight count. (Which is kinda an athletic move, 'taking a knee.")

It was way too small of a card to create any controversy. I.e. no one cared.

On the other hand Zab Judah is a good example of why the rule should exist.

Getting up and taking a knee during an 8 count is one thing. Having dancing legs while b$tching to ref is entirely different! LOL! Good point though.

[Kalan]

I believe my own two eyes. I've SEEN Ali vs Liston 2. Multiple times, and multiple times I've seen Liston take a dive. Nothing anybody can say is gonna tell me different than what my own 2 eyes tell me.

The took a dive eh??? .... I guess part of taking a dive is getting up, squaring off, and resuming the fight.. Brilliant.

[Kalan]

Ali was my fistic hero at the time... A lot of young people loved Ali because of his big personality and insane cockiness... Guys in my age group liked him. He was a polarizing figure because many wanted to see him get knocked out. I thought his antics were great fun... His showmanship was terrific.. I knew he was pulling everyone’s chain.. I knew it was an act.

I remember thinking “Get your ass to a neutral corner and stay there.. You’ll get disqualified.” Even though I liked Ali, I have to confess, I would have DQ’d him if I were the referee and he defied my orders to go to a neutral corner several times.

But it wouldn't have come to that..

I would've called TIME.. TIME.. TIME!!!.. When officials are stupid you have to repeat yourself.. I'd tell Nat Fleischer "You're not an official. Shut your face." I would order Liston to a neutral corner and take 2 points from Ali for defying my orders. I would then shout at Ali, “GET YOUR ASS TO THAT NEUTRAL CORNER AND STAY THERE!!” I would then give Liston an 8-count though he’s been standing around for a minute or so.. The RULE states the count is SUSPENDED until the fighter scoring the knockdown goes to a neutral corner. I would then resume the fight.. Both fighters would get the message.. That fight was the Keystone Kops on steroids.. It always rankled me that Liston got robbed .... though most folks could GAF less because their all-time hero benefited from the massive debacle, historic fuk up, and outrageous screw job handed to Liston.

[gilgamesh]

I believe my own two eyes. I've SEEN Ali vs Liston 2. Multiple times, and multiple times I've seen Liston take a dive. Nothing anybody can say is gonna tell me different than what my own 2 eyes tell me.

The took a dive eh??? .... I guess part of taking a dive is getting up, squaring off, and resuming the fight.. Brilliant.

The part of taking a dive is going down from a punch that doesn't look particularly damaging, then getting to a knee as if you're about to stand, and then just flopping back over onto your back to make sure the fight is over.

When he stood up he was probably thinking "Jesus Christ why isn't this fight over?"

[oogiebe]

I believe my own two eyes. I've SEEN Ali vs Liston 2. Multiple times, and multiple times I've seen Liston take a dive. Nothing anybody can say is gonna tell me different than what my own 2 eyes tell me.

The took a dive eh??? .... I guess part of taking a dive is getting up, squaring off, and resuming the fight.. Brilliant.

The part of taking a dive is going down from a punch that doesn't look particularly damaging, then getting to a knee as if you're about to stand, and then just flopping back over onto your back to make sure the fight is over.

When he stood up he was probably thinking "Jesus Christ why isn't this fight over?"

I know my agreement with EPIC won't stop the ever-repeating onslaught, but I agree 100%. Bad acting bad diving.

[DrDuke]

Walcott's actions a bit spoiled everything for Sonny, but Liston had still succeeded in his venture, as we know.

[oogiebe]

Walcott's actions a bit spoiled everything for Sonny, but Liston had still succeeded in his venture, as we know.

LOL! It ruined his academy award, no doubt! LMAO!

[Kalan]

The took a dive eh??? .... I guess part of taking a dive is getting up, squaring off, and resuming the fight.. Brilliant.

The part of taking a dive is going down from a punch that doesn't look particularly damaging, then getting to a knee as if you're about to stand, and then just flopping back over onto your back to make sure the fight is over.

When he stood up he was probably thinking "Jesus Christ why isn't this fight over?"

I know my agreement with EPIC won't stop the ever-repeating onslaught, but I agree 100%. Bad acting bad diving.

You do NOT agree 100%... You agreed Ali should have or could have easily been DQ'd for defying Walcott's orders... You agreed Liston was screwed because the neutral corner rule WAS NOT enforced... You agreed that the whole enterprise was an episode out of Keystone Kops because you said you agreed pretty much 100% with a post I put out stating all those arguments and a few more...

Plus it's much more likely to assume ALI was trying to tank the fight than Liston... Why would Ali defy the referee and the neutral corner rule if he didn't want to get disqualified????

Why was Ali jumping around like a spastic jack rabbit, high on cocaine if he didn't want the referee to DQ him and tank the fight???? .... That seems a lot more suspicious than somebody getting up to resume fighting -- slipping and ducking every folllow up punch... Liston wanted to keep on fighting or he wouldn't have resumed fighting and ducked and dodged Ali's follow up attack like rain falling off a duck... If you want to tank a fight you wait patiently for the referee to get Ali to a neutral corners (only takes a few minutes for that to happen) and comes back and counts you out.

[oogiebe]

The part of taking a dive is going down from a punch that doesn't look particularly damaging, then getting to a knee as if you're about to stand, and then just flopping back over onto your back to make sure the fight is over.

When he stood up he was probably thinking "Jesus Christ why isn't this fight over?"

I know my agreement with EPIC won't stop the ever-repeating onslaught, but I agree 100%. Bad acting bad diving.

You do NOT agree 100%... You agreed Ali should have or could have easily been DQ'd for defying Walcott's orders... You agreed Liston was screwed because the neutral corner rule WAS NOT enforced... You agreed that the whole enterprise was an episode out of Keystone Kops because you said you agreed pretty much 100% with a post I put out stating all those arguments and a few more...

Plus it's much more likely to assume ALI was trying to tank the fight than Liston... Why would Ali defy the referee and the neutral corner rule if he didn't want to get disqualified????

Why was Ali jumping around like a spastic jack rabbit, high on cocaine if he didn't want the referee to DQ him and tank the fight???? .... That seems a lot more suspicious than somebody getting up to resume fighting -- slipping and ducking every folllow up punch... Liston wanted to keep on fighting or he wouldn't have resumed fighting and ducked and dodged Ali's follow up attack like rain falling off a duck... If you want to tank a fight you wait patiently for the referee to get Ali to a neutral corners (only takes a few minutes for that to happen) and comes back and counts you out.

No I didn't Kalan. I always say if the ref don't call it, it isn't a foul. It was a flop. I agreed with some of the minutia of landing/throwing punches and Liston's disposition, but it was a dive in my unwavering opinion. Could have and should have are different. I didn't comment on the neutral corner rule. If I appreciated your points that also doesn't mean I agreed. Chilax. (Lord I didn't want to get into this again.)

[APerno]

We should create one of those radio button polls: Do you think Sonny Liston intended to throw the second Ali-Liston fight?

I am curious how many think Liston was trying to tank the fight, and how many think he wasn't.

[oogiebe]

We should create one of those radio button polls: Do you think Sonny Liston intended to throw the second Ali-Liston fight?

I am curious how many think Liston was trying to tank the fight, and how many think he wasn't.

3,782 - 1 in favor of a flop.

[oogiebe]

Please Kalan, don't go fishing for previous posts looking to make your point. I'm not up for that.

[Kalan]

Please Kalan, don't go fishing for previous posts looking to make your point. I'm not up for that.

I'm not fishing previous posts... You know we went over the neutral corner rule and how Ali defied the referee's orders... You agreed with all that... You said Ali could have been DQ'd... So now you're changing up... Fine.

But if Ali defied the referee and defied the neutral corner rule why wasn't he trying to tank the fight by DQ???? He sure as Hell was RISKING a DQ.... Was he trying to tank the fight??? Sure looked like it right??

So here we have 2 scenarios... I... Ali deliberately defied the referee and refused to go to a neutral corner risking a DQ.... Liston got up in plenty of time according to the rules and resumed boxing...

Which boxer was in violation of the rules???? .... Which boxer would have been legitimately DQ'd????

Which boxer got up and continued fighting??? .... Which boxer slipped and ducked all the follow up shots???

Questions you don't like to answer.... You just read Liston's mind and know he intended to tank the fight as it went on.

[Kalan]

Walcott's actions a bit spoiled everything for Sonny, but Liston had still succeeded in his venture, as we know.

Yeah.... The referee SHOULD have been in the process of awarding the fight to Liston by DQ -- because NO OTHER BOXER in the HISTORY OF MARQUIS OF QUEENSBERRY World Heavyweight Title Fights DEFIED a referee's repeated orders like Ali did.

Have there been DQ's??? .... Yeah!!! ... Sharkey was DQ'd for hitting Schmeling low... What is a more egregious violation??? Running around the ring like a jack rabbit when you're supposed to be in a neutral corner or a low blow??? Liston knew the count was supposed to be suspended according to the neutral corner rule... Why wasn't it????

Oh, and you're another guy who can read minds... You know what Liston was going to do in the future.