Luis Ortiz vs. Dillian Whyte (WBC final eliminator)

[Heretic]

I think it's clear Ortiz is not what he was, but Pulev is 37 and it's been a while since he fought anyone good enough to test whether he still justifies his lofty ranking. And while i'm not saying his injury wasn't genuine, he didn't seem exactly gutted to have to pull out of the Joshua fight did he? I think Ortiz is at this stage retaining more ambition than Pulev.

In my opinion Pulev pulling out of the Joshua fight shows that he actually still has ambitions. He could have done what Pac did and fight with broken shoulder and get career high payday. (Or at least second highest after the Wlad fight.) I think that hes refusal to fight with injury actually means that he thinks he can win against Joshua and that hes not going to fight him just for the good payday.

I think prime for prime they both beat Whyte as he is today, not forgetting that Whyte is an improving fighter learning as he goes. He may be a way short of his peak yet.

I agree with this

The thing is Joshua and Whyte might not like each other very much, but they are both with Eddie Hearn and they both want to fight each other again, only not now. Dillian would like to face AJ as a fellow champion but with Sulaiman doing Haymon's bidding, it doesn't appear he will get a chance at the only belt Joshua doesn't hold.

Sure he could fight Pulev and probably outwork him, but earning the IBF mandatory slot doesn't really advance his prospects. Joshua v Whyte II happens regardless and the mandatory earns him 25% guaranteed but against Joshua de'd probably be looking for 40/60 whether he's mandatory or not.

If I'm Whyte I think I fight Ortiz anyway. What he has got that's better?

I'd still sue the fukcers though.

Whyte is in tight spot. He is good enough that guys like Wilder want to duck him but hes not good enough that he can just fight anybody to get to the mandatory position. He needs to pick hes battles well to get to that big pay day.

I would actually like to see the Joshua rematch. I don't see Whyte getting anywhere close to 40/60 deal for that fight. Joshua holds all of the financial power in that negotiation. That mandatory 25% could actually be pretty good deal for him.

Trying to get to mandatory position for WBC is really stupid. They can and will do what the fornicate they want with their rankings. I don't think that they are braking any laws while doing it so suing them will lead to nowhere.

I really hate the WBC

[oogiebe]

"Hearn will appeal WBC’s decision to order Dillian Whyte vs. Luis Ortiz"

Eddie Hearn says he plans on appealing the World Boxing Council’s decision to order a fight between #1 WBC Dillian Whyte and #3 Luis ‘King Kong’ Ortiz for the second mandatory position to get a title shot against WBC heavyweight champion Deontay ‘Bronze Bomber’ Wilder

Hearn wants the WBC to install the 29-year-old Whyte (23-1, 17 KOs) as Wilder’s mandatory so that he can get a title shot straightaway rather than having to go through Ortiz (28-1, 24 KOs).

“We’re going to appeal that. [WBC president]" Mauricio Sulaiman said he would talk about it this week, and maybe post a resolution,” Hearn said to skysports.com.

"Hearn expects to complete Dillian Whyte vs. Kubrat Pulev deal for July 28"

Dillian Whyte (23-1, 17 KOs) will be fighting former heavyweight world title challenger Kubrat Pulev (25-1, 13 KOs) next on July 28 in an IBF heavyweight title eliminator, as Matchroom Boxing promoter Eddie Hearn is looking to finish that deal before the purse bid a week from now.

I.E. Hearn tries to have Whyte duck Ortiz. Seriously...why the max effort?

[Enlightened-One]

"Hearn will appeal WBC’s decision to order Dillian Whyte vs. Luis Ortiz"

Eddie Hearn says he plans on appealing the World Boxing Council’s decision to order a fight between #1 WBC Dillian Whyte and #3 Luis ‘King Kong’ Ortiz for the second mandatory position to get a title shot against WBC heavyweight champion Deontay ‘Bronze Bomber’ Wilder

Hearn wants the WBC to install the 29-year-old Whyte (23-1, 17 KOs) as Wilder’s mandatory so that he can get a title shot straightaway rather than having to go through Ortiz (28-1, 24 KOs).

“We’re going to appeal that. [WBC president]" Mauricio Sulaiman said he would talk about it this week, and maybe post a resolution,” Hearn said to skysports.com.

"Hearn expects to complete Dillian Whyte vs. Kubrat Pulev deal for July 28"

Dillian Whyte (23-1, 17 KOs) will be fighting former heavyweight world title challenger Kubrat Pulev (25-1, 13 KOs) next on July 28 in an IBF heavyweight title eliminator, as Matchroom Boxing promoter Eddie Hearn is looking to finish that deal before the purse bid a week from now.

I.E. Hearn tries to have Whyte duck Ortiz. Seriously...why the max effort?

You've clearly not been following the situation, have you?

Seriously kid, stop prematurely jumping to all sorts of derogatory conclusions until you understand the nature of the subject matter you're commenting on.

You shouldn't just randomly bark incoherent claims, like a keyboard Tourette's Syndrome sufferer would, if you haven't thought about your words prior to posting them!

[oogiebe]

"Hearn will appeal WBC’s decision to order Dillian Whyte vs. Luis Ortiz"

Eddie Hearn says he plans on appealing the World Boxing Council’s decision to order a fight between #1 WBC Dillian Whyte and #3 Luis ‘King Kong’ Ortiz for the second mandatory position to get a title shot against WBC heavyweight champion Deontay ‘Bronze Bomber’ Wilder

Hearn wants the WBC to install the 29-year-old Whyte (23-1, 17 KOs) as Wilder’s mandatory so that he can get a title shot straightaway rather than having to go through Ortiz (28-1, 24 KOs).

“We’re going to appeal that. [WBC president]" Mauricio Sulaiman said he would talk about it this week, and maybe post a resolution,” Hearn said to skysports.com.

"Hearn expects to complete Dillian Whyte vs. Kubrat Pulev deal for July 28"

Dillian Whyte (23-1, 17 KOs) will be fighting former heavyweight world title challenger Kubrat Pulev (25-1, 13 KOs) next on July 28 in an IBF heavyweight title eliminator, as Matchroom Boxing promoter Eddie Hearn is looking to finish that deal before the purse bid a week from now.

I.E. Hearn tries to have Whyte duck Ortiz. Seriously...why the max effort?

You've clearly not been following the situation, have you?

Seriously kid, stop prematurely jumping to all sorts of derogatory conclusions until you understand the nature of the subject matter you're commenting on.

1 - I'm sure I'm older than you
2 - It's my opinion
3 - Don't diss me/show some respect
4 - see number 1.

[oogiebe]

PS: If you can't see the manipulation and control that Hearn's seems to need, perhaps you should reflect upon it.

[Enlightened-One]

I.E. Hearn tries to have Whyte duck Ortiz. Seriously...why the max effort?

You've clearly not been following the situation, have you?

Seriously kid, stop prematurely jumping to all sorts of derogatory conclusions until you understand the nature of the subject matter you're commenting on.

1 - I'm sure I'm older than you
2 - It's my opinion
3 - Don't diss me/show some respect
4 - see number 1.

An intelligent-minded person would refrain from articulating an opinion until they've gathered a basic understanding of the situation.

[oogiebe]

You've clearly not been following the situation, have you?

Seriously kid, stop prematurely jumping to all sorts of derogatory conclusions until you understand the nature of the subject matter you're commenting on.

1 - I'm sure I'm older than you
2 - It's my opinion
3 - Don't diss me/show some respect
4 - see number 1.

An intelligent-minded person would refrain from articulating an opinion until they've gathered a basic understanding of the situation.

Now you're saying I'm not intelligent. Anything else before I fire back, because today I'm in the mood for a brawl..

[oogiebe]

In fact alleged Enlightened One, let me bask in the empty glow of your enlightenment.

[Enlightened-One]

1 - I'm sure I'm older than you
2 - It's my opinion
3 - Don't diss me/show some respect
4 - see number 1.

An intelligent-minded person would refrain from articulating an opinion until they've gathered a basic understanding of the situation.

Now you're saying I'm not intelligent. Anything else before I fire back, because today I'm in the mood for a brawl..

I'm saying that you prematurely jumped to a derogatory conclusion without understanding the subject matter you were commenting on.

[oogiebe]

An intelligent-minded person would refrain from articulating an opinion until they've gathered a basic understanding of the situation.

Now you're saying I'm not intelligent. Anything else before I fire back, because today I'm in the mood for a brawl..

I'm saying that you prematurely jumped to a derogatory conclusion without understanding the subject matter you were commenting on.

OK, fair enough. You are, Repectfully, incorrect. I've been watching/reading/seeing all the Hearn's maneuvering and have come to the conclusion that Hearns is in the driver's seat and doesn't want to give it up. Same idea, different verbiage. He is a true promoter who wants to control it all. Why wouldn't he? IT's just the plain truth.

[Enlightened-One]

Now you're saying I'm not intelligent. Anything else before I fire back, because today I'm in the mood for a brawl..

I'm saying that you prematurely jumped to a derogatory conclusion without understanding the subject matter you were commenting on.

OK, fair enough. You are, Repectfully, incorrect. I've been watching/reading/seeing all the Hearn's maneuvering and have come to the conclusion that Hearns is in the driver's seat and doesn't want to give it up. Same idea, different verbiage. He is a true promoter who wants to control it all. Why wouldn't he? IT's just the plain truth.

Do you not have any empathy over Whyte's reluctance to keep jumping through the WBC's hoops in order to gain his shot at Wilder or do you insist that it's a straightforward case of the Brit ducking the Cuban?

Your answer will determine whether you actually understand the subject matter.

[oogiebe]

Here are a sample of Eddie Hearn Headlines. He's a thug turned promoter who is a control freak. Read on:

1 Eddie Hearn warns of short deadline to agree terms on Anthony Joshua-Deontay Wilder unification clash: 'We have two or three weeks to do this'

2 Eddie Hearn pegs Joshua-Wilder chances at 70 percent

3 Eddie Hearn - Deontay Wilder doesn't want to fight Joshua

4 Eddie Hearn says he’s perplexed by Team-Wilder negotiation methods; refusal to sit down and talk with him

ETc. etc. I can provide links to the triple talking Eddie.

[oogiebe]

I'm saying that you prematurely jumped to a derogatory conclusion without understanding the subject matter you were commenting on.

OK, fair enough. You are, Repectfully, incorrect. I've been watching/reading/seeing all the Hearn's maneuvering and have come to the conclusion that Hearns is in the driver's seat and doesn't want to give it up. Same idea, different verbiage. He is a true promoter who wants to control it all. Why wouldn't he? IT's just the plain truth.

Do you not have any empathy over Whyte's reluctance to keep jumping through the WBC's hoops in order to gain his shot at Wilder or do you insist that it's a straightforward case of the Brit ducking the Cuban?

Your answer will determine whether you actually understand the subject matter.

No, I don't have any empathy for any athlete who is active and healthy. Whyte is not doing the ducking...Hearn is...again. If you can't see Hearn's strategy, then I can't help you see the light.

To ask a question and determine in your post what it means before seeing it is nothing more than Narcissism. I don't post with brick walks. Get off the soapbox and we can intelligently discuss the facts and subject matter.

[Enlightened-One]

Here are a sample of Eddie Hearn Headlines. He's a thug turned promoter who is a control freak. Read on:

1 Eddie Hearn warns of short deadline to agree terms on Anthony Joshua-Deontay Wilder unification clash: 'We have two or three weeks to do this'

2 Eddie Hearn pegs Joshua-Wilder chances at 70 percent

3 Eddie Hearn - Deontay Wilder doesn't want to fight Joshua

4 Eddie Hearn says he’s perplexed by Team-Wilder negotiation methods; refusal to sit down and talk with him

ETc. etc. I can provide links to the triple talking Eddie.

So in simple terms: you don't understand Dillian Whyte's issue with the WBC, so you're trying to use red herring debating tactics to change the topic being discussed, in order to divert the attention of those following our conversation as to your blatant lack of knowledge about the subject matter.

[oogiebe]

Here are a sample of Eddie Hearn Headlines. He's a thug turned promoter who is a control freak. Read on:

1 Eddie Hearn warns of short deadline to agree terms on Anthony Joshua-Deontay Wilder unification clash: 'We have two or three weeks to do this'

2 Eddie Hearn pegs Joshua-Wilder chances at 70 percent

3 Eddie Hearn - Deontay Wilder doesn't want to fight Joshua

4 Eddie Hearn says he’s perplexed by Team-Wilder negotiation methods; refusal to sit down and talk with him

ETc. etc. I can provide links to the triple talking Eddie.

So in simple terms: you don't understand Dillian Whyte's issue with the WBC, so you're trying to use red herring debating tactics to change the topic being discussed, in order to divert the attention of those following our conversation as to your blatant lack of knowledge about the subject matter.

Seriously EO, you are proving my point. You are being like Kalan (but without the knowledge). Agree or be wrong. If that is how you want to be perceived...more power to you. Ciao!

[oogiebe]

Whyte should fight Ortiz if that is ordered. Why not? Good fight and would do eliminate one of the fighters from contention for now. I would love to see this fight and could care less about the BS going on around it coming from Hearn.

[Enlightened-One]

Seriously EO, you are proving my point. You are being like Kalan (but without the knowledge). Agree or be wrong. If that is how you want to be perceived...more power to you. Ciao!

You’re doing it again, using yet another red herring in order to avoid conceding that you don’t really understand Dillian Whyte’s situation with the WBC.

You’ve submitted several posts to this thread in the last hour or so and none of your comments show any evidence of your understanding of the situation.

I asked you a simple question about the Whyte-WBC situation and you responded by submitting an irrational post about Hearn & Wilder.

You then decided to attack me and Kalan instead of commenting on the Whyte-Ortiz-WBC situation.

It seems you’re doing your upmost to avoid expressing any thoughts that are on topic, that directly relate to the subject matter of this thread, yet you bizarrely keep posting to it.

I couldn’t care less if you disagree with me, if you’re educated about the subject matter, but if you insist on posting derogatory comments out of sheer ignorance, then you need to expect your posts to be aggressively challenged by others.

[oogiebe]

Seriously EO, you are proving my point. You are being like Kalan (but without the knowledge). Agree or be wrong. If that is how you want to be perceived...more power to you. Ciao!

You’re doing it again, using yet another red herring in order to avoid conceding that you don’t really understand Dillian Whyte’s situation with the WBC.

You’ve submitted several posts to this thread in the last hour or so and none of your comments show any evidence of your understanding of the situation.

I asked you a simple question about the Whyte-WBC situation and you responded by submitting an irrational post about Hearn & Wilder.

You then decided to attack me and Kalan instead of commenting on the Whyte-Ortiz-WBC situation.

It seems you’re doing your upmost to avoid expressing any thoughts that are on topic, that directly relate to the subject matter of this thread, yet you bizarrely keep posting to it.

I couldn’t care less if you disagree with me, if you’re educated about the subject matter, but if you insist on posting derogatory comments out of sheer ignorance, then you need to expect your posts to be aggressively challenged by others.

Know what? One thing I understand is that you are conflating as I am and have been talking about Eddie Hearn's BS. Your psychological analysis of me is humorous but essentially incorrect. I have said "I've been wrong" and "I didn't know that" more times than I can count, but I don't believe I am inaccurate on this. So you are pointing these posts at me without any education on that particular subject matter. Troll on big boy! I'm really not interested in your views any longer.

[Enlightened-One]

Seriously EO, you are proving my point. You are being like Kalan (but without the knowledge). Agree or be wrong. If that is how you want to be perceived...more power to you. Ciao!

You’re doing it again, using yet another red herring in order to avoid conceding that you don’t really understand Dillian Whyte’s situation with the WBC.

You’ve submitted several posts to this thread in the last hour or so and none of your comments show any evidence of your understanding of the situation.

I asked you a simple question about the Whyte-WBC situation and you responded by submitting an irrational post about Hearn & Wilder.

You then decided to attack me and Kalan instead of commenting on the Whyte-Ortiz-WBC situation.

It seems you’re doing your upmost to avoid expressing any thoughts that are on topic, that directly relate to the subject matter of this thread, yet you bizarrely keep posting to it.

I couldn’t care less if you disagree with me, if you’re educated about the subject matter, but if you insist on posting derogatory comments out of sheer ignorance, then you need to expect your posts to be aggressively challenged by others.

Know what? One thing I understand is that you are conflating as I am and have been talking about Eddie Hearn's BS. Your psychological analysis of me is humorous but essentially incorrect. I have said "I've been wrong" and "I didn't know that" more times than I can count, but I don't believe I am inaccurate on this. So you are pointing these posts at me without any education on that particular subject matter. Troll on big boy! I'm really not interested in your views any longer.

In other words, you’re essentially saying that you are entitled to be utterly clueless and no one is allowed to question your thoughts, because it’ll offend your delicate nature?

[SFW]

Maybe we can be honest and point out Dillian Whyte has essentially beaten a couple dreadful heavyweights living on name recognition and has actually proven far less than advertised. The benefits of a weak division, vastly overrated fighters like Whyte get rewarded with undue praise. Making him fight an actual threat like Ortiz, to earn a title shot, is far from a big ask. I'm glad it upsets the plans, they wanna fuss every time shit doesn't go their way whine because they didn't get what they want when they want it. Any real fan would want Whyte to face the best, not the absolute shit he previously faced. A lifeless mummy and a horribly out of shape inactive doper who came to cash out. These are not valuable wins, it's sad anyone would think that. Now Ortiz could be by far Whyte's biggest win, and it's a chance to outdo Wilder. They don't fancy his chances, or like not having control. There might be extra hoops to go through, but Whyte had an easy path to get where he is now, can't feel sorry. Not when most boxers have to do far more to get the chances and backing he's already gotten.

[candyslim]

I think it's clear Ortiz is not what he was, but Pulev is 37 and it's been a while since he fought anyone good enough to test whether he still justifies his lofty ranking. And while i'm not saying his injury wasn't genuine, he didn't seem exactly gutted to have to pull out of the Joshua fight did he? I think Ortiz is at this stage retaining more ambition than Pulev.

In my opinion Pulev pulling out of the Joshua fight shows that he actually still has ambitions. He could have done what Pac did and fight with broken shoulder and get career high payday. (Or at least second highest after the Wlad fight.) I think that hes refusal to fight with injury actually means that he thinks he can win against Joshua and that hes not going to fight him just for the good payday.

cs:I would have probably reached the same conclusion were it not that Pulev definitely rejected the offer once before (the abortive mandatory shot) to face Joshua, and I can't confirm but others have agreed when I posted that I heard he had rejected more than once. Badhusker said multiple times but that could just be hyperbole.

cs: It's my feeling that he is content being a national hero, a Bulgarian sporting icon and he would rather forego even £5m for fighting Joshua if that meant another Klitschkoesque beating and loss of face in the eyes of his adoring fans . There again I could be talking out of my arse. It's a difficult technique and took me a long time to master.

I think prime for prime they both beat Whyte as he is today, not forgetting that Whyte is an improving fighter learning as he goes. He may be a way short of his peak yet.

I agree with this

The thing is Joshua and Whyte might not like each other very much, but they are both with Eddie Hearn and they both want to fight each other again, only not now. Dillian would like to face AJ as a fellow champion but with Sulaiman doing Haymon's bidding, it doesn't appear he will get a chance at the only belt Joshua doesn't hold.

Sure he could fight Pulev and probably outwork him, but earning the IBF mandatory slot doesn't really advance his prospects. Joshua v Whyte II happens regardless and the mandatory earns him 25% guaranteed but against Joshua de'd probably be looking for 40/60 whether he's mandatory or not.

If I'm Whyte I think I fight Ortiz anyway. What he has got that's better?

I'd still sue the fukcers though.

Whyte is in tight spot. He is good enough that guys like Wilder want to duck him but hes not good enough that he can just fight anybody to get to the mandatory position. He needs to pick hes battles well to get to that big pay day.

cs: I know that, and you know that, but does he know that? You might be right about the 40% and it is by no means certain he would beat Ortiz but ... I don't think defeat against Ortiz would be too damaging in that UK fans will still want Joshua v Whyte II barring a humiliating defeat against Ortiz, and if he were to win even Sulaiman might baulk at putting another obstacle in his path. His goal must be to get to Wilder before Joshua does, and to this end he appears to have a powerful ally in Hearn.

I would actually like to see the Joshua rematch. I don't see Whyte getting anywhere close to 40/60 deal for that fight. Joshua holds all of the financial power in that negotiation. That mandatory 25% could actually be pretty good deal for him.

cs: I think he'll do better than 25% even if 40% is too optimistic on my part.

Trying to get to mandatory position for WBC is really stupid. They can and will do what the eff they want with their rankings. I don't think that they are braking any laws while doing it so suing them will lead to nowhere.

cs: You're probably right and I say that primarily because it's noticeable that Hearn is careful not to overstep the mark in his very justifiable annoyance. He is talking about an appeal rather than a lawsuit so my suing them comment was more wishful thinking rather than a constructive plan of action.

I really hate the WBC

cs: Of course you do. How could any sane and right-thinking boxing fan not feel that way? Don't bother - I know the answer to that one.

My comments above preceded cs:

[oogiebe]

Know what? One thing I understand is that you are conflating as I am and have been talking about Eddie Hearn's BS. Your psychological analysis of me is humorous but essentially incorrect. I have said "I've been wrong" and "I didn't know that" more times than I can count, but I don't believe I am inaccurate on this. So you are pointing these posts at me without any education on that particular subject matter. Troll on big boy! I'm really not interested in your views any longer.
[/quote]
In other words, you’re essentially saying that you are entitled to be utterly clueless and no one is allowed to question your thoughts, because it’ll offend your delicate nature?
[/quote]

LMAO!!! Ok...!

[jamamb]

realistically in todays division whyte already has one of the best resumes, certainly of the best over the last few years. some talk of him maybe fighting pulev next and if he beats him too his resume becomes extremely hard to knock unless you do it to almost everyone else

[oogiebe]

realistically in todays division whyte already has one of the best resumes, certainly of the best over the last few years. some talk of him maybe fighting pulev next and if he beats him too his resume becomes extremely hard to knock unless you do it to almost everyone else

I agree jam. outside the top five, he's fought most of the lower top 15. Solid resume for him.

[candyslim]

Maybe we can be honest and point out Dillian Whyte has essentially beaten a couple dreadful heavyweights living on name recognition and has actually proven far less than advertised. The benefits of a weak division, vastly overrated fighters like Whyte get rewarded with undue praise. Making him fight an actual threat like Ortiz, to earn a title shot, is far from a big ask. I'm glad it upsets the plans, they wanna fuss every time poo doesn't go their way whine because they didn't get what they want when they want it. Any real fan would want Whyte to face the best, not the absolute poo he previously faced. A lifeless mummy and a horribly out of shape inactive doper who came to cash out. These are not valuable wins, it's sad anyone would think that. Now Ortiz could be by far Whyte's biggest win, and it's a chance to outdo Wilder. They don't fancy his chances, or like not having control. There might be extra hoops to go through, but Whyte had an easy path to get where he is now, can't feel sorry. Not when most boxers have to do far more to get the chances and backing he's already gotten.

Maybe they were as it turned out but before the Browne fight I was worried as a Whyte fan, that he was risking his number one status against a potentially very dangerous unknown quantity. Yes he turned out to be out of shape and little threat but that's not Whyte's fault and he probably was expecting a tough test maybe a war.

The point is Whyte has done everything asked of him by the WBC. He was even half-expecting, and was prepared to face Dominic Breazeale in a final eliminator. That would have at least made sense even if it had been a bit harsh considering Whyte was already number one and had won eliminators already.
There was absolutely no justification for Eric Molina to get nominated in an eliminator never mind a final eliminator, and how does Ortiz warrant a final eliminator just two months after being knocked out by Wilder in his previous attempt?

Whyte would would probably not complain if he had to fight a final eliminator with Ortiz provided that gave him the next mandatory shot at Wilder, but no, Breazeale is the mandatory, so even if Whyte beats Ortiz he probably won't get his shot before 2020 by which time Wilder may not even be WBC champion. Don't forget Stiverne was the only mandatory defence for Wilder in 3 years. The Hearn camp aren't saying Wilder shouldn't fight Breazeale next, only that it should be a voluntary defence, so that at least Whyte stands to get his shot if he beats Ortiz.

What happens if Ortiz is clearly fukcd and Whyte blows him away? Are you going to say he still hasn't beaten anybody decent, make him fight Parker or Miller in a finally-final eliminator?

I think Wilder beats Whyte and I've no idea why he (Wilder or Haymon take your pick) persists in ducking him, even getting Sulaiman onboard to manipulate the rules and deny him his chance. Sulaiman is so far up Haymon's arse it's a wonder he can still see daylight. How many Haymon fighters has Deontay defended against ?

I get it you guys are Wilder fans, you're American you should support your guy, but if it was Miller being fukced around by the governing body at Hearn's instigation so as to keep Joshua from having to face him this Brit would be spitting fukcing feathers.

Oogie I know it's a long post sorry, but please read it, think about it, and ask yourself whether what is going on is fair not to Hearn but to Whyte?