James Toney: How will he be remembered?

[caldo2025]

If you don't think James Toney should be in the Hall of Fame you either (a) see it as the most exclusive of clubs, or (b) don't know much about boxing.

I actually agree with some of what you say re: him not knowing when to hang them up, but I can see no argument that he is not easily worthy of Hall of Fame.

James Toney will probably get into the HOF with the way they usher anyone and everyone into it each year. Heck, Sylvester Stallone is in the HOF for pretending to be a boxer. I'm just saying that if I had a ballot, I'd be more particular about who we let in to the HOF.

I lived through James Toney's professional boxing career and even paid $180 for a ticket to UFC 118 to see him fight and get killed by Randy Couture. To get into the HOF, you should have an effect on the sport on top of titles. Here's a guy that has been caught numerous times with steroids in post fight tests after winning belts. I'd argue that he's done more bad than good to the sport and honestly, boxing would have been better had they not had the James Toney era.

In my book, once you get caught cheating...you're done. That calls into question every fight you've ever been in and we have to assume he had an unfair advantage with PEDS. Sorry, you don't get in James Toney. Once dirty, always dirty.

It's completely reasonable to think that any fighter who is a proven drug cheat should be barred from the Hall of Fame, but in your original post you stated he was an over rated boxer. He's clearly Hall of Fame worthy from a pure boxing perspective.

Toney has been caught dirty multiple times so you have to call his whole resume in question and all of those wins. The fact that those instances happened in the same period of time that he had his best victories, to me, means that he shouldn't get credit for them. Hence, he's overrated in that regard as well. Overrated ability and overrated record. Wins should be vacated IMO.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I disagree with that, James. I think that steroids are way more prevalent north of 170 pounds than south of it. Weight loss and Steroids do not mix. Most boxers under 170 are sucking weight to get to a number and that would be very difficult with steroids. Plus a lot of boxers now are slowly coming aboard to using VADA in their contracts.

I don't think that it's fair to label all boxers as dirty. You either need to have a bad test or some solid evidence with multiple witnesses's to officially be labeled as dirty. I prefer to believe that most boxers are clean and doing it correctly.

I wish it were otherwise, I really do, but I've come to the opinion, that athletic sports as a whole are absolutely riddled with substance abuse, the pressures to gain an edge are intense, and at top level I think people are hitting it hard - they have the money and science to avoid detection, even VADA and other anti-doping agencies freely admit they are always several steps behind.

The only sport that i'll agree with you is with American Football and NBA Basketball. It's so clearly obvious in those sports by merely using the eye test that humans do not grow like this normally without some kind of enhancements. Just 40 years ago, it was an anomaly to have a lineman weighing over 300 pounds. Usually that player was just a fat slow load. Now you can't play the line unless you're over 300 and can run a 4.6-40 yard dash. So I agree with you on some pro athletes but not all.

I think that Boxers end up with muscles from the ears on down just due to the fact that training in boxing is way more complete and extensive than other sports.

Most elite athletes in most disciplines have extensive training regimes- until recently boxing has lagged behind somewhat, but finally seems to be catching up. I used to correspond with a sports nutritionist and trainer, who worked with baseball and basketball players amongst others, he'd also worked with some high profile boxing gyms, and said that many boxing trainers, were in the dark ages with their training regimes. Things have moved on now, most successful fighters and gyms, now have separate strength and conditioning and nutritional specialists.

There have been recent exposes in athletics about how poor the testing is in many countries, they are now talking about doing testing at the Jamaican junior trials, as it seems there have been known dopers working with youngsters, who are often looking for a scholarship to the US or to become a part of the hugely successful Jamaican setup.

The fact that fighters are adding huge blocks of ripped solid muscle, and moving through the weights and seem to be hitting harder as they move up, really doesn't make sense, whilst training methods may have changed, basic human physiology hasn't, and the fact is, it is incredibly difficult to add muscle mass without also adding body fat, we all have a natural size, and gains made in muscle mass are hard won, and it is very suspicious to do so, whilst also doing loads of cardio also - bodybuilders avoid cardio like the plague because it uses up calories that would otherwise go to building muscle tissue.

[DrDuke]

In my opinion, Toney should be remembered first of all for his middleweight and super middleweight achievements. His prime was there, his best performance was there, when he outclassed Iran Barkley in brilliant fashion. There were some bad moments for James, including being outclassed by refrigerator and by Roy Jones, but that was good time for Toney in general. Moving up was more ambiguous. His light heavyweight run wasn't the most interesting, the cruiserweight one was better and in most ways because of Jirov fight, which had been just amazing. I'd even call it his second best fight after Barkley bout.

His heavyweight run, I'd say, sucked overall. Toney started good there on the first look defeating the shadow of Holyfield's shadow. He won the title from John "The gift for wannabe-heavyweight shorties" Ruiz, but there's no value in that, as he failed the drug test. Then there was the first Rahman fight, where Toney performed poor and was awarded a draw. Then those Peter losses, both pretty fair. Then NC in another Rahman bout. All of that stuff shouldn't have been, I'm not even talking about his future career. He should have retired after failing to become HW champ.

[littlepug]

In my opinion, Toney should be remembered first of all for his middleweight and super middleweight achievements. His prime was there, his best performance was there, when he outclassed Iran Barkley in brilliant fashion. There were some bad moments for James, including being outclassed by refrigerator and by Roy Jones, but that was good time for Toney in general. Moving up was more ambiguous. His light heavyweight run wasn't the most interesting, the cruiserweight one was better and in most ways because of Jirov fight, which had been just amazing. I'd even call it his second best fight after Barkley bout.

His heavyweight run, I'd say, sucked overall. Toney started good there on the first look defeating the shadow of Holyfield's shadow. He won the title from John "The gift for wannabe-heavyweight shorties" Ruiz, but there's no value in that, as he failed the drug test. Then there was the first Rahman fight, where Toney performed poor and was awarded a draw. Then those Peter losses, both pretty fair. Then NC in another Rahman bout. All of that stuff shouldn't have been, I'm not even talking about his future career. He should have retired after failing to become HW champ.

Dont forget Nunn fight ! Thats a helluva scalp to take against an unbeaten champion, he looked good that night did Nunn but Toney would not be denied, great win.

[Ruthless-RKO]

Can we move this to 'Boxing History' please.

[dickbelden]

james toney= 1st ballot IBHOF !

[Best Coast]

My best memory of Toney was his masterful, methodical breakdown of then-unbeaten world cruiser champ Vasily Jirov. He employed something similar to Ali's rope-a-dope by leaning on the ropes and letting Jirov expend his energy by pounding on his mid-section (while blocking most of those shots with his arms and elbows).

Then sealing the deal with that brutal knockdown right before the final bell. Jirov was clearly spared a certain KO loss if there had been more than 7 seconds left on the clock.

That 12th round was definitely one of the alltime greatest rounds in history!!

[Fist of Legend]

at MW SMW and CW he was a certified bad ass, at Heavyweight he was a certified fat ass

[lazboy]

at MW SMW and CW he was a certified bad ass, at Heavyweight he was a certified fat ass

funny and true

[jamesmcdonnell]

My best memory of Toney was his masterful, methodical breakdown of then-unbeaten world cruiser champ Vasily Jirov. He employed something similar to Ali's rope-a-dope by leaning on the ropes and letting Jirov expend his energy by pounding on his mid-section (while blocking most of those shots with his arms and elbows).

Then sealing the deal with that brutal knockdown right before the final bell. Jirov was clearly spared a certain KO loss if there had been more than 7 seconds left on the clock.

That 12th round was definitely one of the alltime greatest rounds in history!!

in hindsight his total destruction of holyfield was an amazing performance.