SONNY LISTON VS ANTHONY JOSHUA

[Kalan]

Man, I hate to change the subject, but I've just had an epiphany.

Shove your epiphany Dingleberry.

[Kalan]

Let's say you hire an ex-con... He's a good employee for 10 years... You still decide he going to rob you blind tomorrow???

But Sonny Liston didn't have ten years of good behavior, right from the start he was the IBC's move to take over the heavyweight crown and with it boxing.

Lets go to the obvious, I bet you think that Clay being blinded in the first fight was an accident., right? -- Wrong!

This man was mixed up with the hard guys his whole career. Frankie Carbo's Wikipedia page has a sub topic entitled Sonny Liston.

Come on! -- Sonny Liston is a sub-topic on Carbo's page, try to get real about the guy.

Anyone who stands close to these people gets dirty, they don't let you stay clean; you're no use to them clean.

Sonny Liston

By 1959, Carbo and his partner Blinky Palermo owned a majority interest in the contract of heavyweight boxer Sonny Liston, who went on to win the World Heavyweight Championship in 1962. From the start of his pro career in 1953, Liston had been "owned" by St. Louis mobster John Vitale, who continued to own a stake in the boxer. At the time Palermo and Carbo acquired their interest in Liston, the notorious Carbo was imprisoned on Rikers Island, having been convicted of the undercover management of prize-fighters and unlicensed matchmaking.

According to both FBI and newspaper reports, Vitale and other mobsters "reportedly controlled Liston's contract",[7] with Vitale owning approximately twelve percent.[8] Liston fought 12 fights under the control of Carbo and Palermo.

You're smearing a guy with guilt by association... The stuff Carbo did had nothing to do with anything Liston did.

Liston was a clean fighter who was good enough that he didn't need to cheat... He was an honest fighter who put in an honest day's work... He wasn't super rich, which he should have been according to his talent... He never put anything in Ali's eye's... The referee rubbed Liston's gloves on his own eyes and there was nothing. Nobody would risk that kind of BS. You'd get your license suspended forever. There was and is ZERO proof of allegations Liston tried to blind Ali.

Ali won the first fight anyway... Liston suffered a massive injury to his left shoulder and biceps and couldn't continue - with the fight even on the scorecards... Liston was a 7-1 betting favorite going into the fight.. He was in much better condition for the rematch and determined to win it.. And he should have won by DQ.

Ali should have been DQ'd for DEFYING the referee's orders and the neutral corner rule... NO other Heavyweight Champion in the HISTORY of BOXING has ever gotten away with tossing out the rule book like Ali did... Nobody defied the referee for so long that his opponent got NO count from the referee..

NOBODY had any business stopping the fight.. According to the neutral corner rule the fight was still on---as Ali, Liston, and Walcott all thought it was.. The count is suspended until Ali goes to a neutral corner and he MUST stay there.. Ali also defied the referee in his Bonavena Fight.. He hacked the referee's hand away as he tried to order Ali to a neutral corner so Bonavena could get an unmolested 8-count... The referee was physically too small and weak to hold Ali back... Ali walked right through the referee and hacked his arm away when the referee put a hand in his chest.

[DrDuke]

And now everyone should go here: http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=43798

[Kalan]

It has nothing to do with any of that.... Walcott acted like he didn't know the rules. When that happens the boxing commission is supposed to retroactively correct things and declare a No Contest. This has been done many times. Liston is immediately installed as mandatory challenger and Ali has to meet him next. Instead they compounded the errors.

The rule book was thrown out.... the COUNT IS SUSPENDED if the boxer scoring the knockdown fails to go to a neutral corner.... Liston should have won by DQ... Ali ignored the referee's orders to go to a neutral corner so Walcott was busy trying to get him there and Liston got no count... Liston cannot be counted out if the count is paused because of a rule violation by Ali.

It makes no difference when Liston gets up because the count is supposed to be suspended... The only choice the referee has is to DQ Ali if Liston did not get up and resume fighting and Ali kept refusing to go to a neutral corner.... Anybody who says anything different doesn't know what they're talking about. AGAIN the rule book was tossed out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

Go to 22:50 of the above video and listen as HOF referee Ruby Goldstein explains this to Howard Cosell.

[oogiebe]

Godwin's law II is an Internet adage that asserts that "As an online discussion [on BoxRec] grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving [Chamberlain] approaches . . .”

What if the discussion is essentially a circle???

[Kalan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

Then you go to 22:50 of the above video and listen as HOF referee Ruby Goldstein explains this to Howard Cosell.

[oogiebe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

Then you go to 22:50 of the above video and listen as HOF referee Ruby Goldstein explains this to Howard Cosell.

Seriously saying: If I ever have trouble getting information, I'm coming to you, Kalan!

[APerno]

You're smearing a guy with guilt by association... The stuff Carbo did had nothing to do with anything Liston did.

The mob's survival depends on people like you; nothing bad ever really happens it's all made up by people like me.

[Kalan]

Bad guys will always be with us APerno... They buy off the police... judges...politicians... and Trump.... They can't control a spastic jackrabbit jumping around the ring, or the addle headed Walcott, Fleischer, the time keeper, and the boxing commissioners... 23:00 of this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

You heard Cosell and Goldstein explain the neutral corner rule and why the fight was still on... There's no boogie men.

[BoxBuzz]

Godwin's law II is an Internet adage that asserts that "As an online discussion [on BoxRec] grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving [Chamberlain] approaches . . .”

A mathmatical certainty.

[BoxBuzz]

Bad guys will always be with us APerno... They buy off the police... judges...politicians... and Trump.... They can't control a spastic jackrabbit jumping around the ring, or the addle headed Walcott, Fleischer, the time keeper, and the boxing commissioners... 23:00 of this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

You heard Cosell and Goldstein explain the neutral corner rule and why the fight was still on... There's no boogie men.

Fighters don't make great refs......And JJW was poor on that day......but just like in football......it's part of the game.

Interesting that you don't want Trump to give Jackson a pardon....but you seem to be indicating you'd be happy to see this fight reclassified years later.

That's proof that you are no stopped clock. You'd just like to be King.

[oogiebe]

Bad guys will always be with us APerno... They buy off the police... judges...politicians... and Trump.... They can't control a spastic jackrabbit jumping around the ring, or the addle headed Walcott, Fleischer, the time keeper, and the boxing commissioners... 23:00 of this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

You heard Cosell and Goldstein explain the neutral corner rule and why the fight was still on... There's no boogie men.

Fighters don't make great refs......And JJW was poor on that day......but just like in football......it's part of the game.

Interesting that you don't want Trump to give Jackson a pardon....but you seem to be indicating you'd be happy to see this fight reclassified years later.

That's proof that you are no stopped clock. You'd just like to be King.

Wow! I think you pegged it Buzz.

[Kalan]

Fighters don't make great refs......And JJW was poor on that day......but just like in football......it's part of the game.

That wasn't a poor day... That was a catastrophic day from all the officials... There was something in the water.

If a referee stops a fight too quickly it's part of the game... If he throws out the rule book and ignores a massively important rule that's been part of Boxing for nearly 100 years -- and the commissioners present didn't overrule the referee and order the fight continued -- then the commission needs to declare a NC and order a rematch within a specified time frame.

And when a referee takes orders from a non-official at ringside... then throws the rule book out -- that's a time when the commission needs to step in... That fight was Sonny Liston getting the screw job of the century.

[Kalan]

That's proof that you are no stopped clock. You'd just like to be King.

Well your brain stalls out from overheating when you strain it for more than 15 seconds of figuring.

And you like to take personal digs instead of looking at facts that you don't like... If the referee doesn't enforce the neutral corner rule and a boxer is declared the loser when the count wasn't even supposed to start yet....then the losing boxer gets very seriously screwed... The fight should have been declared a NC by the commission and a rematch ordered.

[oogiebe]

Fact: It was a f'd up situation at best (we can all agree on that)
Fact: See the above.

[ewenhay]

Whilst the refereeing was inept (as discussed and agreed in the spookily similar Phantom Punch thread and several others in the recent past) I'm not sure any referee would have disqualified Ali for not going to a neutral corner. A warning would be the more likely outcome.

[oogiebe]

This thread is now longer than the amount of days since this event actually occurred. The best outcome of this fight was the classic photo now hanging in the Smithsonian photography section. The arguments are so freakin' tiresome on this website I'm going to throw up.

[ewenhay]

These threads all end the same way these days. It's all about repeating your original statement over and over again, ignoring other peoples opinions and staying the course to get the last word in. Unfortunately there's very little evidence that some people even take other people's opinions into consideration. Changing your mind is completely out of the question.

Any thread mentioning Ali, Liston, Joshua or the Klitschkos means the same result :

Joshua followed by the Klitschkos are the best Heavyweights ever. Oliver MCCall may be the 4th best heavyweight of all time.
Wilt Chamberlain is the best heavyweight ever (who never fought)
Lewis should have been disqualified against Klitschko
Ali should have been disqualified against Liston

That about sums it up I think.

[oogiebe]

These threads all end the same way these days. It's all about repeating your original statement over and over again, ignoring other peoples opinions and staying the course to get the last word in. Unfortunately there's very little evidence that some people even take other people's opinions into consideration. Changing your mind is completely out of the question.

Any thread mentioning Ali, Liston, Joshua or the Klitschkos means the same result :

Joshua followed by the Klitschkos are the best Heavyweights ever. Oliver MCCall may be the 4th best heavyweight of all time.
Wilt Chamberlain is the best heavyweight ever (who never fought)
Lewis should have been disqualified against Klitschko
Ali should have been disqualified against Liston

That about sums it up I think.

It was funny until day 257...it's all just rubbish already.

[Kalan]

Oliver McCall is the 4th greatest Heavyweight of all time.
Wilt Chamberlain is the best heavyweight ever (who never fought)
Lewis should have been disqualified against Klitschko
Ali should have been disqualified against Liston

Those are the dumbest exaggerations in the History of posting.

NOBODY is saying McCall was the 4th best Heavyweight ever.... McCall beat Lewis in superb fashion on the sole occasion when he was healthy of mind and body AND had a ATG coach in his corner (how often are you lucky enough to have an ATG coach? Not too often). Steward told everyone McCall would had the weapons, speed, and power to confuse the Hell out of Lewis and knock him out... Steward said "Lewis is easily confused." ... Nobody believed Steward including me -- but then there's the result of the fight, which was well fought, with a crisp right counter KO and not a lottery shot..

NOBODY ever said Chamberlain was the best Heavyweight ever or even close to the best.... He was the greatest ATHLETE ever and wanted to knock out Ali to prove he was... When Ali realized how serious Chamberlain was he started making every excuse in the world not to fight him...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF57P1uUG0s including the mealy mouthed excuse "I accept your challenge... After I fight a few more contenders... IF I beat THEM."

NOBODY said Lewis should have been DQ'd vs Klitschko... Klitschko was winning the fight on ALL SCORECARDS and the fight should have GONE to the scorecards for a TD..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q because the cuts were opened and worsened by fouls, in which case you go to the scorecards.

NOBODY insisted Ali be DQ'd for flagrantly defying the referee's orders... But nobody could blame a referee for DQing Ali... Liston broke NO rules and got to his feet in plenty of time according to the neutral corner rule... Liston should have been allowed to continue and he had no intention of tanking the fight... Watch 23:00 of this video and don't remain ignorant about the neutral corner rule...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCJgRU9 ... e=youtu.be

[oogiebe]

Is it me or do many posters ignore what was posted by others????

[Kalan]

They do.... They also ignore facts that don't prove their fanciful conclusions.... and come up with unprovable scenarios such as the Black Muslims had assassins in the audience... "They did eh??? .... But what about the neutral corner rule and the fact Ali defied the referee's orders for the entire count??."..... "The neutral corner rule is dumb anyway." .... "Oh it is? Okay"

[oogiebe]

(Said so calm it's like coming from a comatose patient): I'm just saying that the whole fiasco is a non-debate at this time. That is all.

[gilgamesh]

They do.... They also ignore facts that don't prove their fanciful conclusions.... and come up with unprovable scenarios such as the Black Muslims had assassins in the audience... "They did eh??? .... But what about the neutral corner rule and the fact Ali defied the referee's orders for the entire count??."..... "The neutral corner rule is dumb anyway." .... "Oh it is? Okay"

I'll tell you what else is silly. It takes a 10 count to determine whether a guy is KO'd? Why not a 40 count? That way we'll know FOR SURE he can't continue.

Black Muslims had assassins in the Audience? Wow man you're opening my eyes because that's not even what I had said, I was thinking like Mafioso or something, but you're telling me Black Muslims can be violent? I'm absolutely stunned, and floored by your knowledge.

Also why stop at Neutral Corners? I think we need Neutral Cornermen even! Guys that don't give two sh*ts about their fighters, and wouldn't hesitate to work 'em over a little bit themselves if they weren't doing what they were told.

For guys to REALLY get the point across I think everybody's cornermen should be taller than them. Because as YOU well know, if they have a cornerman that's taller than them there ain't gonna be sh*t they can do to if they question their trainers orders...because he'll just be so tall standing in front of them telling them what to do that how could they argue with the height?

[oogiebe]

WRONG!!! BULL CRAPP! YOU'RE AN IDIOT! YOU'RE A LIAR! (just practicing)