Lennox Lewis vs Anthony Joshua

[DrDuke]

I don't see any breakthrough boxing skills that Frazier, Norton, Foreman or Ali had...

That's strange. It's possible to agree about Foreman though, his main advantages were size and special power.

Many of their opponents were so laughable it made for funny comedy on late night talk shows...

And? Every top boxer's scalps are mostly journeymen, who are aimed to help higher class fighters to build records.

There is nothing breakthrough about leading with your head like Norton and Frazier.... That made them easy marks for Foreman... Leaning straight back from punches, like Ali did, isn't a breakthrough... It's a very common flaw and gets you hit with left hooks and blooping shots... Ali's jab delivery was also badly flawed because he left his face wide open.. Walking in while loading left hooks like Frazier did isn't a breakthrough... Right hands can get there faster can take your head off.

You're never going to see Anthony Joshua pad his challenger list with guys like: Jean Pierre Coopman, Brian London, Chuck Wepner, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Terry Daniels, Manuel Ramos, Ron Stander, Dave Zyglewitz, Joe Roman, Crawford Grimsley, and other characters who shouldn't even be main event fighters.

Frazier's offence was special. Before there was no such relentless bobbing-and-weaving puncher, that fast and that sharp. Ali's movement was special also. Before him there were not much fighters establishing such kind of movement, building the entire game on it. And we've already seen Joshua picking Breazeale in the moment, when his biggest win was a one over Mansour, who had been injured luckily for Breazeale. And we've already seen Joshua picking Molina right after that.

[Kalan]

That's strange. It's possible to agree about Foreman though, his main advantages were size and special power.



And? Every top boxer's scalps are mostly journeymen, who are aimed to help higher class fighters to build records.

There is nothing breakthrough about leading with your head like Norton and Frazier.... That made them easy marks for Foreman... Leaning straight back from punches, like Ali did, isn't a breakthrough... It's a very common flaw and gets you hit with left hooks and blooping shots... Ali's jab delivery was also badly flawed because he left his face wide open.. Walking in while loading left hooks like Frazier did isn't a breakthrough... Right hands can get there faster can take your head off.

You're never going to see Anthony Joshua pad his challenger list with guys like: Jean Pierre Coopman, Brian London, Chuck Wepner, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Terry Daniels, Manuel Ramos, Ron Stander, Dave Zyglewitz, Joe Roman, Crawford Grimsley, and other characters who shouldn't even be main event fighters.

Frazier's offence was special. Before there was no such relentless bobbing-and-weaving puncher, that fast and that sharp. Ali's movement was special also. Before him there were not much fighters establishing such kind of movement, building the entire game on it. And we've already seen Joshua picking Breazeale in the moment, when his biggest win was a one over Mansour, who had been injured luckily for Breazeale. And we've already seen Joshua picking Molina right after that.

Breazeale is 6'7" X 255 with 1 loss in 20 fights.. AT the time he had more fights than Joshua and he caused the injury that made things difficult for Mansour... Amir bit his tongue and there's nothing Breazeale can do because that's Boxing.. Molina was 6'4" X 235 and had only 2 losses since his pro debut -- one was against a contender and one was a good showing in a Title Fight against Deontay Wilder... He had just knocked out Tomasz Adamek to get the shot at AJ.

Frazier's head bobbing wasn't fast or sharp... Foreman dribbled him around like a basketball... Joe bobbed and weaved into a lot of punches... Ali's movement was not special... It frequently found him trapped on the ropes eating hoards of punches that did him no good... Jaw busted, pounded, floored, and pretty much beaten to trash during his career... I'm not saying Ali wasn't a good boxer.. But there was nothing ground breaking going on except flash and mouth.

[DrDuke]

There is nothing breakthrough about leading with your head like Norton and Frazier.... That made them easy marks for Foreman... Leaning straight back from punches, like Ali did, isn't a breakthrough... It's a very common flaw and gets you hit with left hooks and blooping shots... Ali's jab delivery was also badly flawed because he left his face wide open.. Walking in while loading left hooks like Frazier did isn't a breakthrough... Right hands can get there faster can take your head off.

You're never going to see Anthony Joshua pad his challenger list with guys like: Jean Pierre Coopman, Brian London, Chuck Wepner, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Terry Daniels, Manuel Ramos, Ron Stander, Dave Zyglewitz, Joe Roman, Crawford Grimsley, and other characters who shouldn't even be main event fighters.

Frazier's offence was special. Before there was no such relentless bobbing-and-weaving puncher, that fast and that sharp. Ali's movement was special also. Before him there were not much fighters establishing such kind of movement, building the entire game on it. And we've already seen Joshua picking Breazeale in the moment, when his biggest win was a one over Mansour, who had been injured luckily for Breazeale. And we've already seen Joshua picking Molina right after that.

Breazeale is 6'7" X 255 with 1 loss in 20 fights.. AT the time he had more fights than Joshua and he caused the injury that made things difficult for Mansour... Amir bit his tongue and there's nothing Breazeale can do because that's Boxing.. Molina was 6'4" X 235 and had only 2 losses since his pro debut -- one was against a contender and one was a good showing in a Title Fight against Deontay Wilder... He had just knocked out Tomasz Adamek to get the shot at AJ.

Frazier's head bobbing wasn't fast or sharp... Foreman dribbled him around like a basketball... Joe bobbed and weaved into a lot of punches... Ali's movement was not special... It frequently found him trapped on the ropes eating hoards of punches that did him no good... Jaw busted, pounded, floored, and pretty much beaten to trash during his career... I'm not saying Ali wasn't a good boxer.. But there was nothing ground breaking going on except flash and mouth.

Breazeale had never fought in the big fights for that moment, except Mansour, where he was losing. Molina was knocked out by Arreola, was beaten by Wilder pretty clear just with catching him for a couple of times. Adamek was old and past prime. Btw, Breazeale's and Molina's sizes weren't big deal, as such sizes are normal now and Joshua is a big man himself.

Styles make fights, Foreman's style was good for winning Frazier. You mention that loss, as if it was something shameful for Joe. Ali being trapped sometimes on the ropes doesn't discredit his movement in general. Nothing works perfect. Nobody is perfect. EXCEPT JOSHUA

[Kalan]

Frazier's offence was special. Before there was no such relentless bobbing-and-weaving puncher, that fast and that sharp. Ali's movement was special also. Before him there were not much fighters establishing such kind of movement, building the entire game on it. And we've already seen Joshua picking Breazeale in the moment, when his biggest win was a one over Mansour, who had been injured luckily for Breazeale. And we've already seen Joshua picking Molina right after that.

Breazeale is 6'7" X 255 with 1 loss in 20 fights.. AT the time he had more fights than Joshua and he caused the injury that made things difficult for Mansour... Amir bit his tongue and there's nothing Breazeale can do because that's Boxing.. Molina was 6'4" X 235 and had only 2 losses since his pro debut -- one was against a contender and one was a good showing in a Title Fight against Deontay Wilder... He had just knocked out Tomasz Adamek to get the shot at AJ.

Frazier's head bobbing wasn't fast or sharp... Foreman dribbled him around like a basketball... Joe bobbed and weaved into a lot of punches... Ali's movement was not special... It frequently found him trapped on the ropes eating hoards of punches that did him no good... Jaw busted, pounded, floored, and pretty much beaten to trash during his career... I'm not saying Ali wasn't a good boxer.. But there was nothing ground breaking going on except flash and mouth.

Breazeale had never fought in the big fights for that moment, except Mansour, where he was losing. Molina was knocked out by Arreola, was beaten by Wilder pretty clear just with catching him for a couple of times. Adamek was old and past prime. Btw, Breazeale's and Molina's sizes weren't big deal, as such sizes are normal now and Joshua is a big man himself.

Styles make fights, Foreman's style was good for winning Frazier. You mention that loss, as if it was something shameful for Joe. Ali being trapped sometimes on the ropes doesn't discredit his movement in general. Nothing works perfect. Nobody is perfect. EXCEPT JOSHUA

I never suggested Joshua was perfect. He's 28 and can still get a lot better... Wilder can get better... He won't peak for another 3 years or more... Ortiz is fat, and at 39 he looks wasted... The thing with Ali. Frazier, and Norton is they stopped working hard and stopped getting better... Foreman got better after age 38. But that was all in his mental game... He wasn't going to beat the top players.. He did a great job setting up Moorer after getting trashed for 10 rounds. He had Moore psyched and bided his time... He proved that wiles and experience can beat youth and speed on occasion.

Ali, Norton, and Frazier weren't able to conserve any craft in old age... That's the true success... How you finish.

[DrDuke]

Breazeale is 6'7" X 255 with 1 loss in 20 fights.. AT the time he had more fights than Joshua and he caused the injury that made things difficult for Mansour... Amir bit his tongue and there's nothing Breazeale can do because that's Boxing.. Molina was 6'4" X 235 and had only 2 losses since his pro debut -- one was against a contender and one was a good showing in a Title Fight against Deontay Wilder... He had just knocked out Tomasz Adamek to get the shot at AJ.

Frazier's head bobbing wasn't fast or sharp... Foreman dribbled him around like a basketball... Joe bobbed and weaved into a lot of punches... Ali's movement was not special... It frequently found him trapped on the ropes eating hoards of punches that did him no good... Jaw busted, pounded, floored, and pretty much beaten to trash during his career... I'm not saying Ali wasn't a good boxer.. But there was nothing ground breaking going on except flash and mouth.

Breazeale had never fought in the big fights for that moment, except Mansour, where he was losing. Molina was knocked out by Arreola, was beaten by Wilder pretty clear just with catching him for a couple of times. Adamek was old and past prime. Btw, Breazeale's and Molina's sizes weren't big deal, as such sizes are normal now and Joshua is a big man himself.

Styles make fights, Foreman's style was good for winning Frazier. You mention that loss, as if it was something shameful for Joe. Ali being trapped sometimes on the ropes doesn't discredit his movement in general. Nothing works perfect. Nobody is perfect. EXCEPT JOSHUA

I never suggested Joshua was perfect. He's 28 and can still get a lot better... Wilder can get better... He won't peak for another 3 years or more... Ortiz is fat, and at 39 he looks wasted... The thing with Ali. Frazier, and Norton is they stopped working hard and stopped getting better... Foreman got better after age 38. But that was all in his mental game... He wasn't going to beat the top players.. He did a great job setting up Moorer after getting trashed for 10 rounds. He had Moore psyched and bided his time... He proved that wiles and experience can beat youth and speed on occasion.

Ali, Norton, and Frazier weren't able to conserve any craft in old age... That's the true success... How you finish.

That kind of success is so rarely can be noticed in boxing.

[oogiebe]

Breazeale is 6'7" X 255 with 1 loss in 20 fights.. AT the time he had more fights than Joshua and he caused the injury that made things difficult for Mansour... Amir bit his tongue and there's nothing Breazeale can do because that's Boxing.. Molina was 6'4" X 235 and had only 2 losses since his pro debut -- one was against a contender and one was a good showing in a Title Fight against Deontay Wilder... He had just knocked out Tomasz Adamek to get the shot at AJ.

Frazier's head bobbing wasn't fast or sharp... Foreman dribbled him around like a basketball... Joe bobbed and weaved into a lot of punches... Ali's movement was not special... It frequently found him trapped on the ropes eating hoards of punches that did him no good... Jaw busted, pounded, floored, and pretty much beaten to trash during his career... I'm not saying Ali wasn't a good boxer.. But there was nothing ground breaking going on except flash and mouth.

Breazeale had never fought in the big fights for that moment, except Mansour, where he was losing. Molina was knocked out by Arreola, was beaten by Wilder pretty clear just with catching him for a couple of times. Adamek was old and past prime. Btw, Breazeale's and Molina's sizes weren't big deal, as such sizes are normal now and Joshua is a big man himself.

Styles make fights, Foreman's style was good for winning Frazier. You mention that loss, as if it was something shameful for Joe. Ali being trapped sometimes on the ropes doesn't discredit his movement in general. Nothing works perfect. Nobody is perfect. EXCEPT JOSHUA

I never suggested Joshua was perfect. He's 28 and can still get a lot better... Wilder can get better... He won't peak for another 3 years or more... Ortiz is fat, and at 39 he looks wasted... The thing with Ali. Frazier, and Norton is they stopped working hard and stopped getting better... Foreman got better after age 38. But that was all in his mental game... He wasn't going to beat the top players.. He did a great job setting up Moorer after getting trashed for 10 rounds. He had Moore psyched and bided his time... He proved that wiles and experience can beat youth and speed on occasion.

Ali, Norton, and Frazier weren't able to conserve any craft in old age... That's the true success... How you finish.

In life how you finish is everything. (except at the end) lol! Nice post Kalan!!!!

[Kalan]

Well, life is funny in a several respects... It is how you end isn't it??? You want to end your boxing career healthy, strong, and mentally fit... The Good Thief was hanging on his cross next to Jesus when he said a few simple words, "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom" Jesus promised him redemption and that made up for his life of crime apparently.

I wonder if there is ever the opposite scenario... A person is holy and obedient to God all his life but does something dreadful and deserving of damnation just before his death... That'd be a tragedy and I'd think that wouldn't be allowed.

[Cojimar 1946]

Back in Lewis's day he generally held physical advantages over his opponents in that he was usually the bigger, stronger man. Would Lewis adjust his style of fighting if he fought in an era with many guys that were bigger than him?

[Datsue]

Back in Lewis's day he generally held physical advantages over his opponents in that he was usually the bigger, stronger man. Would Lewis adjust his style of fighting if he fought in an era with many guys that were bigger than him?

He went after big guys—Klitschko, Akinwande, Golota, Grant. Some more successfully than others, but he went out there to level fighters of a comparable size to himself or bigger.

He had more stylistic trouble with shorter dudes (Holyfield, Mavrovic, McCall, Rahman).

On-topic, Lewis was quite obviously the superior technician here, & I think he'd win. Dunno how, but unless he walks on to one (which is of course possible with a hitter like Joshua) Lewis takes this IMO.

If he was fighting Lewis, the state Joshua was in the sixth round of the Wlad fight (hell, even the seventh!), he doesn't hear another bell, I reckon.

[Flump]

Back in Lewis's day he generally held physical advantages over his opponents in that he was usually the bigger, stronger man. Would Lewis adjust his style of fighting if he fought in an era with many guys that were bigger than him?

Well he knocked out guys like Grant and Klitschko, so it looks like he could.

[Kalan]

Back in Lewis's day he generally held physical advantages over his opponents in that he was usually the bigger, stronger man. Would Lewis adjust his style of fighting if he fought in an era with many guys that were bigger than him?

Well he knocked out guys like Grant and Klitschko, so it looks like he could.

Grant was an awkward stumbling giant like Golota.... Gary Cornish lasted 90 seconds with Joshua and it means nothing... Cornish a big, tall, strong guy who can't box... Lewis DIDN'T KO or even floor a half blind Klitschko... Vitali was WINNING on ALL SCORECARDS so it should have been a TD win for VK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q
The above video shows Lewis committing 5 consecutive fouls to slash open and worsen the eyelid cuts.

[Flump]

Back in Lewis's day he generally held physical advantages over his opponents in that he was usually the bigger, stronger man. Would Lewis adjust his style of fighting if he fought in an era with many guys that were bigger than him?

Well he knocked out guys like Grant and Klitschko, so it looks like he could.

Grant was an awkward stumbling giant like Golota.... Gary Cornish lasted 90 seconds with Joshua and it means nothing... Cornish a big, tall, strong guy who can't box... Lewis DIDN'T KO or even floor a half blind Klitschko... Vitali was WINNING on ALL SCORECARDS so it should have been a TD win for VK https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q
The above video shows Lewis committing 5 consecutive fouls to slash open and worsen the eyelid cuts.

You can live to be 150 Kalan and even then Lennox Lewis will have beaten Vitali Klitschko by Technical KNOCKOUT. You're going to have to show the intestinal fortitude to deal with that fact.

[oogiebe]

Um...no one knocked down Vitali Klitchko...did I miss something.

[Kalan]

He went after big guys—Klitschko, Akinwande, Golota, Grant. Some more successfully than others, but he went out there to level fighters of a comparable size to himself or bigger.

Flump wrote...

You can live to be 150 Kalan and even then Lennox Lewis will have beaten Vitali Klitschko by Technical KNOCKOUT.

Lewis was almost KO'd by Klitschko before he slashed his eye https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q open with foul blows as you see in the above video.... Deal with it... Vitali Klitschko was robbedl... I don't shut my mind to flagrant robberies because I like the robber better than the victim... YOU do that... I'm a stickler for the truth.

Akinwande was crushed by McCall (and so was Lewis)... who did Akinwande ever beat??? ..... Golota was a punching bag who smashed out quickly many times..... Grant was smashed out by diminutive Dominic Guinn...

Lewis walked right into KO punches... Joshua has never done anything like that... If Lewis were aggressive it would be more likely he'd walk into a big AJ right.... Joshua is a better boxer and puncher than Lewis ever was and doesn’t get knocked cold by 20/1 underdogs like Lewis did... Lewis never KO'd an ATG Heavyweight Champion who stood 6'6" X 245.

[DrDuke]

Vitali was WINNING on ALL SCORECARDS so it should have been a TD win for VK

It looks like, you don't know boxing rules.

[Kalan]

Vitali was WINNING on ALL SCORECARDS so it should have been a TD win for VK

It looks like, you don't know boxing rules.

YOU DON'T.... After 4 rounds have been scored... You go to the scorecards if fouls caused or contributed to cuts... Vitali as robbed and YOU KNOW IT!!! .... You just hate him and love Lewis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q

BTW... Later in the fight Lewis was warned for flagrantly palming Vitali in the face to worsen his cuts.... You can go to the scorecards for that ALONE... You wouldn't even need the earlier fouls which are well documented in the above vid.

[DrDuke]

Vitali was WINNING on ALL SCORECARDS so it should have been a TD win for VK

It looks like, you don't know boxing rules.

YOU DON'T.... After 4 rounds have been scored... You go to the scorecards if fouls caused or contributed to cuts... Vitali as robbed and YOU KNOW IT!!! .... You just hate him and love Lewis.

I like both Vitali and Lewis. But if the cut is sustained due to a punch like in the Lewis-Vitali fight, it's a TKO. Go and learn rules, dummy.

[Flump]

He went after big guys—Klitschko, Akinwande, Golota, Grant. Some more successfully than others, but he went out there to level fighters of a comparable size to himself or bigger.

Flump wrote...

You can live to be 150 Kalan and even then Lennox Lewis will have beaten Vitali Klitschko by Technical KNOCKOUT.

Lewis was almost KO'd by Klitschko before he slashed his eye https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtdOteT5G0Q open with foul blows as you see in the above video.... Deal with it... Vitali Klitschko was robbedl... I don't shut my mind to flagrant robberies because I like the robber better than the victim... YOU do that... I'm a stickler for the truth.

Akinwande was crushed by McCall (and so was Lewis)... who did Akinwande ever beat??? ..... Golota was a punching bag who smashed out quickly many times..... Grant was smashed out by diminutive Dominic Guinn...

Lewis walked right into KO punches... Joshua has never done anything like that... If Lewis were aggressive it would be more likely he'd walk into a big AJ right.... Joshua is a better boxer and puncher than Lewis ever was and doesn’t get knocked cold by 20/1 underdogs like Lewis did... Lewis never KO'd an ATG Heavyweight Champion who stood 6'6" X 245.

Joshua's career hasn't played out, you don't seem to be able to get your head around that, we don't know what will happen to him yet do we. The only 6'6" x 245 (arguably) ATG Heavyweight Lewis ever fought he smashed up and won by technical KNOCKOUT after overcoming some tough moments. That my friend is a fact.

[Kalan]

YES.... Joshua overcame tough moments and that is a fact.... Lewis had tough moments that he COULDN'T overcome when he was leveled by punches by big underdogs and LOST... You'll never see Joshua losing to a 20/1 underdog.

[Flump]

YES.... Joshua overcame tough moments and that is a fact.... Lewis had tough moments that he COULDN'T overcome when he was leveled by punches by big underdogs and LOST... You'll never see Joshua losing to a 20/1 underdog.

Let's hope not, as a Brit I'd like to see him retire undefeated. Until then we won't know until his career is over. And from what I've seen so far I'd give him a chance of knocking Lewis out, but would favour Lewis by the same route. In 10 years I might have a different opinion.

[Kalan]

Lewis was wide open... You saw how Vitali nailed him with big right hands in the 1st two rounds when he could see.

Joshua has a much tighter defense and never lets his chin hanging out there... He's also a lot slicker with his left jab and right counter... He doesn't heave his right hand like Lewis, missing by 3 feet and running into right hands...

[oogiebe]

YES.... Joshua overcame tough moments and that is a fact.... Lewis had tough moments that he COULDN'T overcome when he was leveled by punches by big underdogs and LOST... You'll never see Joshua losing to a 20/1 underdog.

Let's hope not, as a Brit I'd like to see him retire undefeated. Until then we won't know until his career is over. And from what I've seen so far I'd give him a chance of knocking Lewis out, but would favour Lewis by the same route. In 10 years I might have a different opinion.

[Kalan]

YES.... Joshua overcame tough moments and that is a fact.... Lewis had tough moments that he COULDN'T overcome when he was leveled by punches by big underdogs and LOST... You'll never see Joshua losing to a 20/1 underdog.

Let's hope not, as a Brit I'd like to see him retire undefeated. Until then we won't know until his career is over. And from what I've seen so far I'd give him a chance of knocking Lewis out, but would favour Lewis by the same route. In 10 years I might have a different opinion.

Hopefully... But certain conclusions can be drawn right now, if you compare their form, speed, athleticism and skills... I also see Lewis as a corrupt and dirty fighter through and through... but a HELL of a lot better than Tyson, Bowe, or Holyfield.

[Cojimar 1946]

By and large the big guys Lewis faced weren't close to Joshua's class except Klitschko. When you combine Joshua's size with athleticism, tremendous power, and decent skills you have something formidable. I don't know if Lewis can count on winning a slugfest with Joshua so his best bet might be to try to box cautiously.

[ewenhay]

I predict this thread will have the same ending as the Liston v Joshua one!