Grilling Machine wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 00:08
Froch retired at the right time, and he was right to avoid Golovkin. History records him beating Groves twice, but my own memory's of Groves being exceptionally unlucky not to win either of those.
I've always wondered if Foster was considering a count when he headlocked Groves, which he then turned into a stoppage to save his embarrassment for what would've been an overzealous interruption for anything else. He called “Stop boxing!” and was looking to intervene, but you have to say he fumbled it when Groves dipped his head in his direction. Had Groves been given a count and survived the round, he still had a chance of hearing the final bell to win. How much of a chance we'll never know.
And he was winning the rematch handily until one of the costliest lapses of concentration I've seen. And so even though Froch won 'em both, I'll remember them as highly competitive fights in which Groves outshone Froch for long stretches. But then that's the story of Froch's career! He found a way against everyone but Mr Unmentionable.
I have always loved that bit in the rematch where they cut to Amir Khan ringside. Jim "Immutable" Watt has decided within 30 seconds that Froch is controling the fight with his jab (despite the fact that Groves is landing just as many plus one or two straight rights per round). Amir tells the presenter that Groves is doing a great job controlling with his jab, only for them to try and correct him in a frantic attempt to keep control of the narrative - "Don't you mean Froch is?" "No, no, Groves is winning easily," Khan replies.
Groves deserved to win at least one of those fights,but boxing is a cruel game.
Grilling Machine wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 00:08
Froch retired at the right time, and he was right to avoid Golovkin. History records him beating Groves twice, but my own memory's of Groves being exceptionally unlucky not to win either of those.
I've always wondered if Foster was considering a count when he headlocked Groves, which he then turned into a stoppage to save his embarrassment for what would've been an overzealous interruption for anything else. He called “Stop boxing!” and was looking to intervene, but you have to say he fumbled it when Groves dipped his head in his direction. Had Groves been given a count and survived the round, he still had a chance of hearing the final bell to win. How much of a chance we'll never know.
And he was winning the rematch handily until one of the costliest lapses of concentration I've seen. And so even though Froch won 'em both, I'll remember them as highly competitive fights in which Groves outshone Froch for long stretches. But then that's the story of Froch's career! He found a way against everyone but Mr Unmentionable.
I have always loved that bit in the rematch where they cut to Amir Khan ringside. Jim "Immutable" Watt has decided within 30 seconds that Froch is controling the fight with his jab (despite the fact that Groves is landing just as many plus one or two straight rights per round). Amir tells the presenter that Groves is doing a great job controlling with his jab, only for them to try and correct him in a frantic attempt to keep control of the narrative - "Don't you mean Froch is?" "No, no, Groves is winning easily," Khan replies.
Groves deserved to win at least one of those fights,but boxing is a cruel game.
Haa yeah I remember that khan interview. Said exactly what I was thinking. Groves really let himself down in both of those fights
seriously some folk need better things to do than worry whether a happily married and retired ATG british boxer's mrs' motives for marrying him. Turned it off when he starting banging on about his hit rates on his site. not worth the time out of my life.
My advice Do one you horrible little man. stick to the boxing.
hopefully Carl treats this toxic little man with the disdain he deserves, as do I.
Pathetic.
Last edited by J on 11 May 2018, 07:34, edited 1 time in total.
As controversial as the first stoppage was Groves was fucked, he was knackered and Froch was landing more and more, he'd have been lucky to survive the round let alone a further 3. The 2nd fight was as conclusive as it gets, Groves is a good fighter but I just don't think he'd ever have beaten Froch.
banjo wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 07:33
As controversial as the first stoppage was Groves was fucked, he was knackered and Froch was landing more and more, he'd have been lucky to survive the round let alone a further 3. The 2nd fight was as conclusive as it gets, Groves is a good fighter but I just don't think he'd ever have beaten Froch.
The tactics he used vs Degale would have had him comfortably winning on points.
Problem was he always fancied that he could blast Froch out.
Grilling Machine wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 00:08
Froch retired at the right time, and he was right to avoid Golovkin. History records him beating Groves twice, but my own memory's of Groves being exceptionally unlucky not to win either of those.
I've always wondered if Foster was considering a count when he headlocked Groves, which he then turned into a stoppage to save his embarrassment for what would've been an overzealous interruption for anything else. He called “Stop boxing!” and was looking to intervene, but you have to say he fumbled it when Groves dipped his head in his direction. Had Groves been given a count and survived the round, he still had a chance of hearing the final bell to win. How much of a chance we'll never know.
And he was winning the rematch handily until one of the costliest lapses of concentration I've seen. And so even though Froch won 'em both, I'll remember them as highly competitive fights in which Groves outshone Froch for long stretches. But then that's the story of Froch's career! He found a way against everyone but Mr Unmentionable.
I have always loved that bit in the rematch where they cut to Amir Khan ringside. Jim "Immutable" Watt has decided within 30 seconds that Froch is controling the fight with his jab (despite the fact that Groves is landing just as many plus one or two straight rights per round). Amir tells the presenter that Groves is doing a great job controlling with his jab, only for them to try and correct him in a frantic attempt to keep control of the narrative - "Don't you mean Froch is?" "No, no, Groves is winning easily," Khan replies.
Groves deserved to win at least one of those fights,but boxing is a cruel game.
Haa yeah I remember that khan interview. Said exactly what I was thinking. Groves really let himself down in both of those fights
How can groves have been unlucky not to win the second fight? He was knocked spark out FFS!
banjo wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 07:33
As controversial as the first stoppage was Groves was fucked, he was knackered and Froch was landing more and more, he'd have been lucky to survive the round let alone a further 3. The 2nd fight was as conclusive as it gets, Groves is a good fighter but I just don't think he'd ever have beaten Froch.
The tactics he used vs Degale would have had him comfortably winning on points.
Problem was he always fancied that he could blast Froch out.
Possibly, it’s one of those what ifs, as in what if he‘d stayed with Booth. The timing of Adam‘s departure was strange
banjo wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 07:33
As controversial as the first stoppage was Groves was fucked, he was knackered and Froch was landing more and more, he'd have been lucky to survive the round let alone a further 3. The 2nd fight was as conclusive as it gets, Groves is a good fighter but I just don't think he'd ever have beaten Froch.
The tactics he used vs Degale would have had him comfortably winning on points.
Problem was he always fancied that he could blast Froch out.
Possibly, it’s one of those what ifs, as in what if he‘d stayed with Booth. The timing of Adam‘s departure was strange
Without knowing the details i would imagine the booth situation with haye and groves leaving was about money. Booth will probably feel vindicated in a way, groves should have paid him that bit extra. Groves has gone on to blame paddy Fitzpatrick for his losses so he obviously must think that it was a mistake.
banjo wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 11:14
I'm not so sure, I've not watched the fight since it happened but Groves didn't exactly dominate Degale, in fact I recall it being very close.
banjo wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 07:33
As controversial as the first stoppage was Groves was fucked, he was knackered and Froch was landing more and more, he'd have been lucky to survive the round let alone a further 3. The 2nd fight was as conclusive as it gets, Groves is a good fighter but I just don't think he'd ever have beaten Froch.
The tactics he used vs Degale would have had him comfortably winning on points.
Problem was he always fancied that he could blast Froch out.
It was a split decision v Degale, a fighter Froch would have dominated. Groves wasn't durable enough to take Frochs work for 12 rounds.
dookus wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 03:38
I have always loved that bit in the rematch where they cut to Amir Khan ringside. Jim "Immutable" Watt has decided within 30 seconds that Froch is controling the fight with his jab (despite the fact that Groves is landing just as many plus one or two straight rights per round). Amir tells the presenter that Groves is doing a great job controlling with his jab, only for them to try and correct him in a frantic attempt to keep control of the narrative - "Don't you mean Froch is?" "No, no, Groves is winning easily," Khan replies.
Groves deserved to win at least one of those fights,but boxing is a cruel game.
Haa yeah I remember that khan interview. Said exactly what I was thinking. Groves really let himself down in both of those fights
How can groves have been unlucky not to win the second fight? He was knocked spark out FFS!
watts commentary about froch controllng thngs wth the jab was totally bzarre. watch that fght agan and tell me what stretch at all frochs domnatng wth the jab. that was a totally manufactured thing. groves clearly had more success wth the jab whle froch scored wth those brutsh melee attacs whch you could tell had groves feelng antsy once froch got them going. close untll groves got 80k'd ...had groves ahead 1 but can see froch ahead 1 or even groves up 3
froch would always get to groves. groves fought aggressive 1st fght and then more as he dd vs degale for the 2nd. now i totally beleve groves stamna and toughness issues are overplayed but for him to beat a froch level attrition beast (or for almost anyone to beat froch) they needed a very good toughness/lasting ability or to be extremely hard to hit. groves just wasnt quite good enough in ether aspect at that p4p level
btw glen johnson was a real tough nut..one of the few who seemed even harder then froch when they fought to me. absorbed frochs best shots and just shrugged them off and kept coming and had froch rattled slghtly and appearing uncomfortable. but froch clearly outboxed glen overall. and when glen was totally shot he lasted the distance vs groves and never went down despite absorbing an unhealthy number of flush power shots. very hard guy.
froch for me really stands out as a guy who was way more effectve then he appeared. pretty slow and downrght awful technque at tmes and not hard to ht ...but man was he effectve at a very hgh level...vs guys who often seemed way nicer on the eye
I think personally that Froch was cheated out of an emphatic victory in the 1st fight; another 10 seconds and the ref would have been stepping in to save Grove from a total shelling, and everyone would have applauded.
It was a premature stoppage, but it's a tough one for a ref to call if he thinks a fighter is in danger of getting badly hurt.
jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 13:51
I think personally that Froch was cheated out of an emphatic victory in the 1st fight; another 10 seconds and the ref would have been stepping in to save Grove from a total shelling, and everyone would have applauded.
It was a premature stoppage, but it's a tough one for a ref to call if he thinks a fighter is in danger of getting badly hurt.
exactly my thoughts, although I appreciate the fact that others whose opinions I respect think differently and ultimately we will 'never know for sure'
jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 13:51
I think personally that Froch was cheated out of an emphatic victory in the 1st fight; another 10 seconds and the ref would have been stepping in to save Grove from a total shelling, and everyone would have applauded.
It was a premature stoppage, but it's a tough one for a ref to call if he thinks a fighter is in danger of getting badly hurt.
Agreed. Groves was done and Foster really fkd it up.
jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 13:51
I think personally that Froch was cheated out of an emphatic victory in the 1st fight; another 10 seconds and the ref would have been stepping in to save Grove from a total shelling, and everyone would have applauded.
It was a premature stoppage, but it's a tough one for a ref to call if he thinks a fighter is in danger of getting badly hurt.
Agreed. Groves was done and Foster really fkd it up.
I think Foster's instincts were good though, he saw the head lolling, and the eyes rolled upwards as I recall, and thought that Groves was about to get badly hurt. Froch's reputation for being a vicious finisher probably came to play, Froch would have been all over him like a horny squid.
Agree with the others on here in that I can't see in any way that Groves was unlucky or anything like it in the Froch fights.
He just couldn't take the pace with Froch, as the fights went longer he got chinned because he couldn't live with Froch's relentlessness and didn't have the engine to go the full 12 rounds at that pace.
Groves was absolutely gone in the first fight and Froch actually came out the 'victim' if you want to call it that, in terms of getting booed by a casual Manchester crowd for stating the obvious that Groves was fooked.
Second fight, Froch respected Groves a lot more, played it cagey after the surprise of the first fight when he clearly had underestimated Groves. Second fight was close-ish but I had Froch winning by 2-3 rounds and then he just waited for Groves to tire and picked a power punch to leave him flattened prone on a bendy leg.
jamesmcdonnell wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 13:51
I think personally that Froch was cheated out of an emphatic victory in the 1st fight; another 10 seconds and the ref would have been stepping in to save Grove from a total shelling, and everyone would have applauded.
It was a premature stoppage, but it's a tough one for a ref to call if he thinks a fighter is in danger of getting badly hurt.
Agreed. Groves was done and Foster really fkd it up.
I think Foster's instincts were good though, he saw the head lolling, and the eyes rolled upwards as I recall, and thought that Groves was about to get badly hurt. Froch's reputation for being a vicious finisher probably came to play, Froch would have been all over him like a horny squid.
He was bang on that Groves was ready to go but way too soon.
I still maintain that if Groves came in with the intention of outboxing Froch on the run like he did with Degale, he wins the fight. He blew himself out trying to KO Froch in the first and still held his feet too long at times in the second. I've said it before but getting KO'd by a right hand while throwing a lead left hook is definitely the poorest mistake I've seen him make in the ring and I can understand why he chose to blame Paddy, who probably came up with the idea of catching Froch with left hooks on the way in. However, Groves himself should shoulder some of the blame. He never accepted that Froch was way toughter than him and really underestimated Froch. That was his downfall in those fights. He did the same vs Jack.
TheCobra wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 15:39
Judges scorecards at time of Groves being KO-d in 2nd fight:
67-66 Froch
67-66 Froch
65-68 Groves
i can see all those, but not your 3 rounds up for froch. groves defo won at least 3 rounds imo, he started well with the quick jabs and movement before froch began opening up. i dont really see how froch was putting away the rounds even before that
it was certainly close, not with any 'ish' to try to lessen it. the scores you posted are split and frochs only up by 1 on his cards. basically very close
Agreed. Groves was done and Foster really fkd it up.
I think Foster's instincts were good though, he saw the head lolling, and the eyes rolled upwards as I recall, and thought that Groves was about to get badly hurt. Froch's reputation for being a vicious finisher probably came to play, Froch would have been all over him like a horny squid.
He was bang on that Groves was ready to go but way too soon.
I still maintain that if Groves came in with the intention of outboxing Froch on the run like he did with Degale, he wins the fight. He blew himself out trying to KO Froch in the first and still held his feet too long at times in the second. I've said it before but getting KO'd by a right hand while throwing a lead left hook is definitely the poorest mistake I've seen him make in the ring and I can understand why he chose to blame Paddy, who probably came up with the idea of catching Froch with left hooks on the way in.
Being pedantic I'd say it was an attempted check hook gone wrong and beaten by the right hand it was intended to 'check', rather than 'just' a lead left hook, like, Frazier style or something.
Froch had tried that long left hook-right hand combination 3 maybe 4 times before the KO. First time was horribly slow and Groves did clip him with a counter left IIRC, I think round 2. Then as the fight went on each time Froch tried that combo he got closer to landing- I don't specifically recall if Groves tried the left hook again until the KO, I don't think he did actually- so I think the KO was the next time Groves tried countering that combo with his left hook.
I wonder if he only landed it the first time as Froch tends to be so slow and sluggish early, you're certain right Groves should have kept his left hand at home- Frochs right was the only punch that was going to banjo him with one shot.
TheCobra wrote: ↑11 May 2018, 15:39
Judges scorecards at time of Groves being KO-d in 2nd fight:
67-66 Froch
67-66 Froch
65-68 Groves
i can see all those, but not your 3 rounds up for froch. groves defo won at least 3 rounds imo, he started well with the quick jabs and movement before froch began opening up. i dont really see how froch was putting away the rounds even before that
it was certainly close, not with any 'ish' to try to lessen it. the scores you posted are split and frochs only up by 1 on his cards. basically very close
I think Foster's instincts were good though, he saw the head lolling, and the eyes rolled upwards as I recall, and thought that Groves was about to get badly hurt. Froch's reputation for being a vicious finisher probably came to play, Froch would have been all over him like a horny squid.
He was bang on that Groves was ready to go but way too soon.
I still maintain that if Groves came in with the intention of outboxing Froch on the run like he did with Degale, he wins the fight. He blew himself out trying to KO Froch in the first and still held his feet too long at times in the second. I've said it before but getting KO'd by a right hand while throwing a lead left hook is definitely the poorest mistake I've seen him make in the ring and I can understand why he chose to blame Paddy, who probably came up with the idea of catching Froch with left hooks on the way in.
Being pedantic I'd say it was an attempted check hook gone wrong and beaten by the right hand it was intended to 'check', rather than 'just' a lead left hook, like, Frazier style or something.
Froch had tried that long left hook-right hand combination 3 maybe 4 times before the KO. First time was horribly slow and Groves did clip him with a counter left IIRC, I think round 2. Then as the fight went on each time Froch tried that combo he got closer to landing- I don't specifically recall if Groves tried the left hook again until the KO, I don't think he did actually- so I think the KO was the next time Groves tried countering that combo with his left hook.
I wonder if he only landed it the first time as Froch tends to be so slow and sluggish early, you're certain right Groves should have kept his left hand at home- Frochs right was the only punch that was going to banjo him with one shot.
It was a check hook correct. I haven't watched the fight in a while but from memory groves was throwing that quite a bit and did hurt froch with it early, probably in the 2nd as you say. I remember thinking he's throwing that shot a lot. It stood out because its not a shot he tended to throw. He actually said before the fight that he was going to knock froch out with a left hook so I was watch out for it.
