Jimmy Wilde and his early opponents

[prewarboxing]

A lot has been aired about the matter of Jimmy Wilde in the last few days and his supposed padded record. Now that the dust appears to have settled it is perhaps a good time to review this matter properly.

I have maintained my position that his record was not padded and have presented as evidence for this my record for Billy Padden.

Currently the BoxRec database of results is not especially advanced for boxing in Edwardian Britain, especially for Wales. I will play my part in improving this situation.

To begin with, there were some quite specific factors which influence the general availability of boxing results in Wales particularly. I will explain what these are.

In England boxing was very well reported in the first twenty years of the twentieth century. The weekly periodical "Boxing News" commenced in September 1909 (at the time, and until 1941 it was known simply as "Boxing") There were three other rich sources of results around at the time that "Boxing" first hit the shelves in 1909. They are all as good as each other and there are many results in the three of them that did not appear at all in "Boxing". These three journals were :

Sporting Life - a daily sporting paper primarily covering horse racing but excellent for boxing. I have a complete set of this paper from 1903 to 1929. I obtained them by photocopying the boxing information from the microfilm held in the British Library. It has taken many years to do this but I now have them all. There is some great stuff there and I will post articles from them on some of the major contests if there is sufficient interest in me doing so.

The Mirror of Life - a weekly paper that mainly covered boxing. This paper commenced in the late nineteenth century and by 1900 was excellent for boxing results in the UK. It remained a rich source of material but started to decline around 1919/20, by which time coverage was poor.

Boxing World - a weekly boxing paper that was an early rival to "Boxing" and which ran between 1909 and 1912. It was then swallowed up by the Mirror of Life, which then became known as "Mirror of Life and Boxing World".

There were a huge number of local newspapers spread across the UK and the majority of these covered boxing in detail when it occurred locally. I have waded through many of these in pursuit of results.

In Wales the situation was different for two reasons, both of which affect the availability of results.

1. At the time South Wales, where most of the boxing occurred, was a deeply religious society, primarily non-conformist. As a consequence the sale of alcohol was prohibited on a Sunday. I can still remember this being the case in parts of Wales into the 1970s. Boxing was frowned upon by the most fanatical non-conformists as barbaric. Unfortunately, some of these powerful non-conformists were newspaper proprietors and editors and they would not have the sport covered in their newspapers. This was not the case in England, generally. It means that a lot of boxing that did take place in Wales was not reported in the press and then did not feed into the four boxing journals I have listed above. Don't get me wrong, a lot did get into "Boxing" etc, but a lot didn't.

2. In England boxing booths were very prominent and numerous. These booths tended to tour the fairgrounds of the country and boxers would be challenged by the local tough guys, who wanted to last three rounds with them in order to win a pound or two. What took place on them were not legitimate contests and therefore nothing hit the press. In Wales it was different. The boxing booths of South Wales toured the pit villages of the valleys right until the end of the 1930s. Organised and legitimate contests took place on them every week and these were often reported in the press. Examples include the booths run by Joe Gess, Tim Sullivan and Jack Scarrott. There were many others. There were many times, however, when legitimate contests that took place on these booths were not reported in the press, as the local newspaper did not send a reporter along to cover the show.

For these two reasons then, Welsh boxing records are not complete, they suffer in comparison to English records.

Many of the early Welsh records will always remain incomplete.

There are a number of bouts listed in the record for Jimmy Wilde which came from the 1914 booklet, "Boxing's Book of Records". I have never been able to find a newspaper source for them and have excluded them from my record for him.

My record for Wilde currently shows 116 contests. BoxRec lists 136 and includes a lot of those contests listed in the 1914 record book and attributed to Pontypridd with a precise date. I am quite sure that these bouts took place but I cannot find a newspaper source for them. There are about 20 in total. Until I find a source and I excluding them from my records. I only ever include a result if there is a trustworthy source.

The records for many of Wilde's early opponents on BoxRec are also very incomplete but this is only because the research on them has not yet been done by those worthy people who update the database. The record for Jim Easton, for instance, shows him as having nine bouts (2-6-1) between 1908 and 1914. My record has him as 40 bouts (12-21-7).

This is why all the recent controversy has arisen. His record is not padded at all. BoxRec has not yet caught up with the relevant material needed to put his opponents into a better light.

This where I can help. I am happy to post a lot of my records for his early opponents and I will start with Jim Easton. If anyone is willing to then update the database accordingly then they can do so with my blessing.

What I now need to be able to do is to insert images into the body of a post such as this one, and I don't know how to do so. Help needed! Can someone advise please on how I do this. I can then upload the Easton record as an image file, or a pdf.

Miles Templeton

[Senya13]

Do you have the issue of Mirror of Life from the earliest date past March 23, 1923? That's the day when the former editor of the publication, J. Frank Bradley, died in South London. He was likely the author of the articles that were published in the Illustrated Police Budget and then then Famous Fights Past & Present, but to confirm that I need to know his year of birth (if it is around 1834, then it must be Bradley) and/or maybe some other details from his obituary. See this blog, for details - http://john-adcock.blogspot.ru/2010/01/ ... ditor.html , including comments.

[Controversial]

What I now need to be able to do is to insert images into the body of a post such as this one, and I don't know how to do so. Help needed! Can someone advise please on how I do this. I can then upload the Easton record as an image file, or a pdf.

Miles Templeton

Interesting read, thank you Miles.

Check out the below thread for uploading images, this might help

http://boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... d#p4845539

[prewarboxing]

Do you have the issue of Mirror of Life from the earliest date past March 23, 1923? That's the day when the former editor of the publication, J. Frank Bradley, died in South London. He was likely the author of the articles that were published in the Illustrated Police Budget and then then Famous Fights Past & Present, but to confirm that I need to know his year of birth (if it is around 1834, then it must be Bradley) and/or maybe some other details from his obituary. See this blog, for details - http://john-adcock.blogspot.ru/2010/01/ ... ditor.html , including comments.

The last copy of Mirror of Life was dated 8 March 1924. Bradley died, as you say, on Mar 23 1923. In the obituary from him by John Murray, the editor of Boxing, it states that his age was something of a mystery. The obituary does confirm that he edited Famous Fights as well as the Mirror of Life. I think that this comment by John Murray, who really knew his stuff, is sufficient for you to feel confident that he was the author of the articles in the two journals you have mentioned.

I have most copies of Mirror of Life up until 1918 but not afterwards as its quality declined as a source of reference.

Interesting blog by the way.

I will post the obit from Boxing shortly if that would be useful

Miles

[prewarboxing]

Thanks Controversial for that. I am going to try and give it a go.

This should be the obituary for J Frank Bradley as promised to Senya13

[prewarboxing]

Blimey .... it works !

Miles

[Controversial]

Blimey .... it works !

Miles

You got it. If you want to upload fighters records theres a Record Queries & Updates part on this forum in case you didn't know

[Senya13]

Thank you. The decline of the publication may have been due to Mr. Bradley's health gradually getting worse during his last years. If he was born in 1834, he'd be 89 years old when he died, and about 84 by the time you say the coverage of boxing got to the worse. But if there is a chance to look up just one issue for his obituary in his own journal, can you take a look on one of your visits to the library? Interesting that it mentions him writing a book on history of boxing, it could probably surpass Pugilistica for bareknuckle boxing history if it were finished, since Henry Downes Miles only wrote about heavyweight championship lineage.

[prewarboxing]

Thank you. The decline of the publication may have been due to Mr. Bradley's health gradually getting worse during his last years. If he was born in 1834, he'd be 89 years old when he died, and about 84 by the time you say the coverage of boxing got to the worse. But if there is a chance to look up just one issue for his obituary in his own journal, can you take a look on one of your visits to the library? Interesting that it mentions him writing a book on history of boxing, it could probably surpass Pugilistica for bareknuckle boxing history if it were finished, since Henry Downes Miles only wrote about heavyweight championship lineage.

I will order it for my visit next week and get back to you with what is in there

[BitPlayer]

Good work. You could post the articles in the record update sections but they don't always update them.

[Senya13]

Another short question, if you don't mind. There was no bout between Kid McCoy and Matthews Curran on August 2, 1914 in London, correct?

[BoxBuzz]

This read is truly outstanding. Thanks for the contribution.

Miles, you should take this info and begin a conversation in the records forum.

My guess is your way ahead of me....

[Bladder]

Something doesn't tie up for me.

If J Frank Bradley was born in 1834 as Senya suggests, that would make him around 48 years of age when he entered the ABA Champs in 1882 according to Miles's obituary for him!

The only death I can find for a J Frank Bradley in London in the quarter ending March 1923 is 62 years old and recorded in the Wandsworth district. He is listed as Joseph F Bradley.

That would make him around 21 years of age when he entered the 1882 ABA's, which is much more likely.

Also, the Wandsworth district covers Tooting where he died and Streatham where he was buried.

[Senya13]

The obituary also says he was a pupil of Jem Ward, who died in 1884, aged 83 years old. I highly doubt Ward was teaching boxing when about 80 years old.

[prewarboxing]

I am not sure what we are trying to clarify here. Wasn't the question along the lines of "is J Frank Bradley, who was involved with Famous Fights the same chap who was the editor of the Mirror of Life". I think that it is clear that he was.

What has his year of birth got to do with anything? I am interested in knowing this anyway because I would like to know the year his birth myself, but we have established a link between the Famous Fights contributor and the Mirror of Life editor. Murray confirms that it is the same man and Murray knew him well.

If you know for certain that the Famous Fights contributor was born in 1834 then could there be two J Frank Bradleys both interested in boxing? Not uncommon in those days for a father to name a son after himself. And not uncommon for the son to follow the same interests as his father.

I have photographs of Bradley circa 1912 and 1913 and he looks to be in his fifties not his late seventies but people looked different back then and age is not always easy to guess at for photos of this period, particularly if they are on newsprint.

Miles Templeton.

[Senya13]

Famous Fights Past & Present (Police Budget Edition), Vol. I.-No. 12., page 186.
Josh Hudson, of course, was long before my time, but I have a portrait of him, and I have heard many a yarn of his obesity from Jem Ward, who for years was an intimate friend of mine.

[Bladder]

The obituary also says he was a pupil of Jem Ward, who died in 1884, aged 83 years old. I highly doubt Ward was teaching boxing when about 80 years old.

Yes, I did notice that. But it doesn't say what age Bradley was when he was a pupil of Ward or what sort of input Ward had.. I don't know what sort of set up Ward had or what his physical state was as an old man. Maybe Bradley was just an 11 or 12 year old kid working out in the background and Ward used to offer him some sage advice or something, that wouldn't be too much of a stretch of the imagination.

[Bladder]

I am not sure what we are trying to clarify here. Wasn't the question along the lines of "is J Frank Bradley, who was involved with Famous Fights the same chap who was the editor of the Mirror of Life". I think that it is clear that he was.

What has his year of birth got to do with anything? I am interested in knowing this anyway because I would like to know the year his birth myself, but we have established a link between the Famous Fights contributor and the Mirror of Life editor. Murray confirms that it is the same man and Murray knew him well.

If you know for certain that the Famous Fights contributor was born in 1834 then could there be two J Frank Bradleys both interested in boxing? Not uncommon in those days for a father to name a son after himself. And not uncommon for the son to follow the same interests as his father.

I have photographs of Bradley circa 1912 and 1913 and he looks to be in his fifties not his late seventies but people looked different back then and age is not always easy to guess at for photos of this period, particularly if they are on newsprint.

Miles Templeton.

Have you read the link to Senya's blog just below your opening post, it will make it clearer what he is trying to establish?

And yes, I also thought about a father-son connection and that maybe he was relaying his father's recollections.

[Senya13]

1923-04-15 Brooklyn Daily Eagle (page D4)
Frank Bradley Dies in London
--------
One of the best known authorities on boxing in the world, a man well known both in the United States and Europe to the followers of the game three or four decades ago, passed away in London the other day in the person of Joseph Frank Bradley, aged 70 years.

Mr. Bradley was a protege of the famous Jem Mace, father of the English school of scientific boxing, and was considered a star amateur boxer about 1882, being entered for the championships that year, but was forced out of them through an injury. After the accident Mr. Bradley gave up boxing and took up journalism.

In the latter 80's Frank, the boys always called him, came to America and became a regular writer for the Blade at Toledo, Ohio, and other American journals. In the early 90's Mr. Bradley brought over Billy Plimmer, one of the cleverest lads in England, and it was at the old Coney Island Club that Plimmer defeated George Dixon, "Little Chocolate," on Aug. 22, 1893. Later Mr. Bradley returned to England and devoted most of his time to writing. He also acted as referee once in a while. He contributed to many journals and was author of "Famous Fights," "Boxing Referees," "Pugilistic Pointers," and others. He was a recognized authority on knuckle fighting.

The past few years Mr. Bradley drew a pension from the Boxers Benevolent Fund, which was started by Sir Walter de Frece and the National Sporting Club of London. The aged editor was always a stanch friend of the American boxers when they visited England.

[Senya13]

If he was 70, then he'd have been born around 1853 and couldn't be present at Tom Sayers' bout with Nat Langham on October 18, 1853 (which was the first fight the author of the write-ups of FFP&P had seen). Then Bradley either used somebody else's write-ups or something just doesn't match.

[Bladder]

If he was 70, then he'd have been born around 1853 and couldn't be present at Tom Sayers' bout with Nat Langham on October 18, 1853 (which was the first fight the author of the write-ups of FFP&P had seen). Then Bradley either used somebody else's write-ups or something just doesn't match.

It seems pretty clear that the death record I posted above is the Joseph Frank Bradley in question.

Next question I suppose is do you believe his age was 62 (from death record) or 70 (from Brooklyn Eagle obituary) at time of death.

I would be more inclined to believe he was 62 from the record I posted as that is from The General Register Office. When you register a death in the UK now, you have to provide a birth certificate and other official documents for the deceased person. Whether that was the case in 1923 though, I don't know.

A newspaper obituary from a different country 3,500 miles away, I would be less inclined to treat as gospel.

[Senya13]

Even a fellow journalist stated he didn't know the real age of the deceased, so I wouldn't trust 62 any more than I trust 70 (the author of the obituary published in BDE revealed details that were not available in Murray's).

In any case, neither age suits the details revealed by the author of the Famous Fights Past & Present in his write-ups.

Even though the sources state that Bradley was connected with the Famous Fights, it could be Bradley writing the section dedicated to contemporary (1890s and early 1900s) boxers and tactics/rules write-ups in that publication. I still would like to see the obituary from his former journal, maybe it'd clear the mud somewhat.

The Illustrated Police Budget, where many of the articles from the FFP&P originally appeared several years earlier, had this to say about Bradley:

1899-09-23 The Illustrated Police Budget (page 7)
Sportive Sparkles.
--------
Edited by "ACTAEON."
Herewith we present a portrait of Mr. J. Frank Bradley, who is famous as a journalist, club-manager, and litterateur. His new work, entitled "Boxing: Its History and Art," is now in the press, and will be published about the end of December. We have had the privilege of looking over some of the advance proof-sheets, and we can safely say that we have never read any work which so thoroughly exhausts the subject treated on.
* * *
The work has been in preparation for some years, and a host of celebrities have assisted in giving their advice and lending their portraits for reproduction. Mr. Bradley is not sparing of criticism, either of men or of methods, but his criticism is intelligent, his arguments logical, his opinions matured, and his views in accord with those of such modern champions as Charley Mitchell, Dick Burge, Ben Jordan, Billy Plimmer, and Jabez White. The first edition of the book, an "edition de luxe," will consist of two volumes, containing over 600 pages, in addition to numerous plates. The number of copies will be limited to 250, and will be issued to subscribers only. The price for the two volumes is J1 1s. Already numerous applications for this most interesting work have been received, and those wishing to secure a copy should make immediate application to Mr. George Redway, publisher, 9 Hart Street, Bloomsbury, London.


The same issue, on page 3 has a write-up No. 142 from "Records of the ring. By an Old-Time Sportsman", about Tom Belcher-Dan Dogherty fight, which is identical (but shorter) to the write-up which appeared in Vol. IV. No. 46 of the Famous Fights Past & Present (Police Budget Edition), pages 106-108. For some reason ACTAEON doesn't mention Bradley being the author of that series.

On the other hand, the obituaries mention Bradley bringing Billy Plimmer to America to fight George Dixon. FFP&P Vol. V. No. 65, on page 208 has a write-up on Billy Plimmer and it says:
"and finally astonished America by beating the redoubtable George Dixon in a four-round contest at Madison Square Garden in August 1893. The writer was present at this contest, and can speak with authority on the matter."
So this one must have been authored by Bradley, indeed.

Extracts from the book by Bradley mentioned above appeared in FFP&P starting from Vol. XI No. 139

[Bladder]

Here he is in the 1911 census and all details fit (Wandsworth, Tooting, Streatham, editor of weekly journal).
His age is estimated as 50 as enumerators often rounded ages down to the nearest multiple of 5.




Above, it lists his birthplace as Preston and here is his record of birth. He was born in the quarter ending September 1857, making him 53 years (rounded down to 50) when the above census was taken and therefore he was aged 65 when he died.

[prewarboxing]

Here he is in the 1911 census and all details fit (Wandsworth, Tooting, Streatham, editor of weekly journal).
His age is estimated as 50 as enumerators often rounded ages down to the nearest multiple of 5.




Above, it lists his birthplace as Preston and here is his record of birth. He was born in the quarter ending September 1857, making him 53 years (rounded down to 50) when the above census was taken and therefore he was aged 65 when he died.

That's the guy!

Miles Templeton.

[gilgamesh]

I can already see the improvement in the conversation around here