What do you think Charley Burley's all time rank should be in professional boxing's welterweight division?
What do you think Charley's all time rank should be in pro boxings "pound for pound" category?
Do you think that Charley Burley may be underrated? If so, why?
Please explain.
Charley Burley?
Re: Charley Burley?
Archie Moore called Burley the best ever and so did Eddie Futch... Burley had 100 fights, was never stopped, looked like a banker if he put a suit on.. You'd never dream he was a fighter. Moore had over 70 fights and had the weight on Burley, but was knocked down 4 times and didn't know if he'd last the 10.
CB fought Light Heavyweights way bigger than him. He knocked out Heavyweight Elmer Ray in a sparring session. Ray was a headline Heavyweight and wasn't too happy about it. But if you could make time machine fights I'd like to see him in there with Errol Spence, Jose Napoles, Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Keith Thurman, Mickey Walker, and Floyd Mayweather. He might come in right behind Spence. Or maybe he'd beat them all. Was he ever down? He lost a few.
CB fought Light Heavyweights way bigger than him. He knocked out Heavyweight Elmer Ray in a sparring session. Ray was a headline Heavyweight and wasn't too happy about it. But if you could make time machine fights I'd like to see him in there with Errol Spence, Jose Napoles, Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Keith Thurman, Mickey Walker, and Floyd Mayweather. He might come in right behind Spence. Or maybe he'd beat them all. Was he ever down? He lost a few.
Re: Charley Burley?
Kalan wrote:Archie Moore called Burley the best ever and so did Eddie Futch... Burley had 100 fights, was never stopped, looked like a banker if he put a suit on.. You'd never dream he was a fighter. Moore had over 70 fights and had the weight on Burley, but was knocked down 4 times and didn't know if he'd last the 10.
CB fought Light Heavyweights way bigger than him. He knocked out Heavyweight Elmer Ray in a sparring session. Ray was a headline Heavyweight and wasn't too happy about it. But if you could make time machine fights I'd like to see him in there with Errol Spence, Jose Napoles, Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Keith Thurman, Mickey Walker, and Floyd Mayweather. He might come in right behind Spence. Or maybe he'd beat them all. Was he ever down? He lost a few.
Spence
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montrealsuper
- Cruiserweight
- Posts: 1056
- Joined: 18 Nov 2010, 12:44
Re: Charley Burley?
Burley must have had a very very bad manager. Or he is the most ducked fighter in history.
Re: Charley Burley?
He's generally grouped with the likes of Holman William, Eddie Booker and Lloyd Marshall in the murder's row who fought each other but never got title shots.montrealsuper wrote:Burley must have had a very very bad manager. Or he is the most ducked fighter in history.
Not sure of the politics but worse fighters seem to have got title shots in that period.
Re: Charley Burley?
On other threads on this website and the Boxing 24 one, I have noted that Burley simply wasn't much of a gate attraction. It appears that Burley never drew a gate more than $15,000. or $16,000. while fighting in a "stand-alone" main event. While taking a look at Burley's record, I found it astounding that he didn't fight in such a large number of major American boxing venues. Moreover, he fought in New York City only once during his career with that bout taking place at St. Nicholas Arena. As a result, I have my doubts that any promoter or backer made a serious offer of $20,000. or $25,000. to Sugar Ray Robinson or Jake LaMotta to fight Burley.
- Chuck Johnston
- Chuck Johnston
Last edited by Chuck1052 on 02 Oct 2017, 08:18, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Charley Burley?
They would offer more than that... A fight with LaMotta or Robinson was a much bigger attraction and Burley was an odds-on threat to beat them... That's what makes big fights.. Beating guys like Archie Moore, who had over 70 fights, but hadn't attained icon status, didn't do Burley that much good at the time.. He didn't get fights with these guys when they were big... Robinson was big... He was already an established drawing card..
Re: Charley Burley?
Amazing fighter Burley but he wasn't an exciting fighter to watch really or a huge charismatic figure. Thats the general view. Being black didn't help at the time I'm sure. If he was white he'd have been a champ and made more money - i think thats a fact. To be black and make in back then you had to have huge appeal and err had that, I'm not sure burley did. Unfair times
Kalan wrote:They would offer more than that... A fight with LaMotta or Robinson was a much bigger attraction and Burley was an odds-on threat to beat them... That's what makes big fights.. Beating guys like Archie Moore, who had over 70 fights, but hadn't attained icon status, didn't do Burley that much good at the time.. He didn't get fights with these guys when they were big... Robinson was big... He was already an established drawing card..
Re: Charley Burley?
cfang wrote:Amazing fighter Burley but he wasn't an exciting fighter to watch really or a huge charismatic figure. Thats the general view. Being black didn't help at the time I'm sure. If he was white he'd have been a champ and made more money - i think thats a fact. To be black and make in back then you had to have huge appeal and srr had that, I'm not sure burley did. Unfair times
Kalan wrote:They would offer more than that... A fight with LaMotta or Robinson was a much bigger attraction and Burley was an odds-on threat to beat them... That's what makes big fights.. Beating guys like Archie Moore, who had over 70 fights, but hadn't attained icon status, didn't do Burley that much good at the time.. He didn't get fights with these guys when they were big... Robinson was big... He was already an established drawing card..
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 15646
- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
Re: Charley Burley?
While evaluating his boxing career, I put him in the top 50 greatest boxers ever pound per pound. The great Charley Burley was a top contender at welterweight and middleweight for about 8 years, and no top fighter nor world champion wanted none of him. He was ignored big time by the top fighters of his day.
Re: Charley Burley?
I don't know if I'd have him among the Top 50 Pound for Pound, but he's certainly one of the very best Boxers in the sports history to have never had the distinction of being a World Champion.elmersalsa wrote:While evaluating his boxing career, I put him in the top 50 greatest boxers ever pound per pound. The great Charley Burley was a top contender at welterweight and middleweight for about 8 years, and no top fighter nor world champion wanted none of him. He was ignored big time by the top fighters of his day.
Several of the titleholders from the modern era who won their cracker jack box titles wouldn't have had a chance against the likes of Burley.
Re: Charley Burley?
While reading John Och's massive three-volume biography of Jack Hurley, I was struck by the fact that he strongly favored boxers who were very aggressive rather than the "safety-first types." Hurley often referred to the "safety-first" boxers as "agony fighters" because It was agony to watch them in action. One reason that Hurley wanted aggressive fighters was that they were far more popular with the fans.
Yet Hurley was known for drilling his boxers relentlessly on boxing fundamentals, much of which he borrowed heavily from the great boxing master, Mike Gibbons. But Hurley also trained his fighters to be aggressive and within punching range while also avoiding telling blows. In fact, Hurley was also influenced by Jack Dempsey's fighting style.
Hurley was a matchmaker in Chicago during much of the time that Charley Burley was active. While Burley was truly a great fighter, he was never on Hurley's radar at any time. Burley simply wasn't much of a gate attraction and had a tendency to "stink out the joint" with his boxing style. It is probable that many other matchmakers and promoters felt the same way as Hurley about Burley. At the same time, Hurley used many other black fighters when putting together boxing shows in Chicago, including Sugar Ray Robinson, George Costner, Willie Joyce, Ezzard Charles, Henry Armstrong, Johnny Bratton, Freddie Dawson, Nate Bolden, Sam Baroudi and Elmer Ray. Hurley managed a black heavyweight, Lem Franklin, who was a contender for a very short time during the 1940s.
- Chuck Johnston
Yet Hurley was known for drilling his boxers relentlessly on boxing fundamentals, much of which he borrowed heavily from the great boxing master, Mike Gibbons. But Hurley also trained his fighters to be aggressive and within punching range while also avoiding telling blows. In fact, Hurley was also influenced by Jack Dempsey's fighting style.
Hurley was a matchmaker in Chicago during much of the time that Charley Burley was active. While Burley was truly a great fighter, he was never on Hurley's radar at any time. Burley simply wasn't much of a gate attraction and had a tendency to "stink out the joint" with his boxing style. It is probable that many other matchmakers and promoters felt the same way as Hurley about Burley. At the same time, Hurley used many other black fighters when putting together boxing shows in Chicago, including Sugar Ray Robinson, George Costner, Willie Joyce, Ezzard Charles, Henry Armstrong, Johnny Bratton, Freddie Dawson, Nate Bolden, Sam Baroudi and Elmer Ray. Hurley managed a black heavyweight, Lem Franklin, who was a contender for a very short time during the 1940s.
- Chuck Johnston
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prewarboxing
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 641
- Joined: 22 Jul 2007, 02:58
Re: Charley Burley?
Charley Burley wasn't worth watching??? Yet he knocked Archie Moore down 4 times and boxed the piss out of him in masterful fashion? .... Would you rather watch a crude swinger who doesn't know what he's doing?
What little of Burley there is on tape he was a pleasure to watch... Maybe he needed a publicity agent.
What little of Burley there is on tape he was a pleasure to watch... Maybe he needed a publicity agent.
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prewarboxing
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 641
- Joined: 22 Jul 2007, 02:58
Re: Charley Burley?
Might it be possible for you to respond to Chuck's intelligent and interesting post with a little more originality and thought?Kalan wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 04:12 Charley Burley wasn't worth watching??? Yet he knocked Archie Moore down 4 times and boxed the piss out of him in masterful fashion? .... Would you rather watch a crude swinger who doesn't know what he's doing?
What little of Burley there is on tape he was a pleasure to watch... Maybe he needed a publicity agent.
You come across as being a little childish here.
Miles Templeton.
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Controversial
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9152
- Joined: 13 Jul 2002, 18:29
Re: Charley Burley?
I researched Burleys career a few years ago, posting some links to newspaper articles which highlighted how much he was avoided.
He beat three future world champions, Fritzie Zivic (welterweight champ), Billy Soose (middleweight champ) and Archie Moore (light-heavyweight champ).
He was frozen out of the welterweight division because Cochrane held the title from 1941-46 without making a single defence because of WW2, so Burley was forced to fight bigger guys. Then Fritizie Zivics manager bought Burleys contract so he wouldn't have to fight him.
Often labelled the greatest fighter to have never fought for a world title and often said to have been avoided by Sugar Ray Robinson. Famously said by Eddie Futch to be "the finest all-around fighter I ever saw."
98 fights
----------
83 wins (50 KOs)
12 losses (never stopped)
2 draws
1 NC
Other wins over Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade and Bert Lytell.
Losses include 2 defeats by Ezzard Charles (in the space of 5 weeks of each other where Burley had a fight in between), a SD loss to Lloyd Marshall and a points loss to Jimmy Bivins (although Burley came close to stopping Bivins in the final round)
'Ring Magazine' had him in their top 10 for 100 months (from September 1938 to August 1947).
Some interesting articles below, from the start of his career to the end.
Charley Burley
Sept. 1936 turned pro aged 19 years exactly.
January 27th 1939 {The Pittsburgh Press}
Charley Burley, unbeaten in 8 starts but shunned by promoters for some peculiar reason
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 12,4407034
June 14th 1938 {The Pittsburgh Press} "Sure I'll fight Henry Armstrong, I'll fight anyone" claims Burley after beating Zivic, which he did beyond question. Burley showed what it takes to fight Armstong. "Zivic used his roughhouse techniques, gouging, heeling, thumbing and wrestling until the crown booed him loudly"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 53,2422718
January 28th 1939 {The Afro American} Welterweight 'sensation' Charley Burley rise has been sensational. He has blasted his way through the ranks. Ring Magazine ranks him 3rd to Armstrong.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 055,416530
May 11th 1939 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Chappie Bernstein, Burleys manager issued a writ. Fritizie Zivic got the worst beating of his career by Burley. "I cannot understand why Zivic is being lined up as a challenger to Henry Armstrong" Burley has all the skills to beat Armstrong. The WBA think so too and have ranked Burley number one challenger to Armstrong's welterweight title. Charles Burley has always given his best, never been in a bad fight, has won all his fights on his own merit and has yet to be censored for foul fighting. Its about time the local boxing scribes got behind a lad who is a credit to his profession. He is willing to meet any or all claimants for the chance to fight Armstrong. We don't go around the country fighting pushovers and setups to bolster our claim for the crack at the welterweight crown. Do Luke Carney (Zivics manager) and Zivic feel the same?"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 18,3990339
Between 03/09/1940 and 25/05/1942 (1 year and 8 months) Burley goes 20-0 (15 KOs)
February 11th 1940 {The Pittsburgh Press} "Charley Burley has had more chances than a 'fellow at a bingo game'. He beat Zivic twice and won near top rating among the welterweights. He beat Soose and began to look like there was a place for him as a middleweight contender"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 899,994319
October 29th 1940 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} "If Burley got his rightful chance at the middleweight crown..."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 13,1274899
May 6th 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette}. In just 4 years as a pro, white fighter Billy Soose has earned his title shot against fellow white fighter Ken Overlin as there are enough good stuff on his record. Burley beat Soose (WUD 10) and looked so good Soose was lucky to last past 5 rounds.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 52,4019192
July 16th 1941 {The Pittsburgh Press}. "Word about town is welterweight champion Fritzie Zivic is Burleys manager or at least holds a sizeable chunk of his contract"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 83,2663001
December 21st 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Laughlin writes that Burley is rapidly becoming a favourite in Minneapolis after two wins, he plans to put him in against a nationally known fighter after the first of the year.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 13,1178934
Cartoon from Minneapolis Star Journal and Tribune (January 21, 1942) - As early as January 1942 a cartoon in local newspaper shows Sugar Ray Robinson (top contender), Fritzie Zivic (white former champ who beat Armstrong for title, still top contender and now "owns" Burleys contract. Zivic fought SRR twice on October 31st 1941 and January 16th 1942), white Freddie 'Red' Cochrane (welterweight champ who beat Zivic for title) and white Young Kid McCoy (contender) diving through the ropes to avoid Burley.
January 2nd 1942 {Times Daily} article. Burley offers challenge to welterweight champ Freddie 'Red' Cochrane. Burley offered to donate his winnings to charity. "I'll even pay my own training expenses" said Burley.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 868,217662
February 1st 1942 {The Pittsburgh Press} Article about Zivic, he states "Tommy O'Loughlin is after me fighting Burley in Minneapolis and to think I once owned Burleys contract"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,2898981
February 7th 1942 {The Milwaukee Journal} Burley issues a new challenge to middleweight champ Tony Zale.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 42,2695465
March 13th 1942 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Loughlin (Burleys manager) wired Johnny Bay a $7,500 offer to fight recent heavyweight title challenger Billy Conn. Conns manager Bay wired back "make it $12,500 and you can fight welterweight Johnny Red Cregan" (Cregan only a journeyman!!). That night the 5'9" 151lb Burley gave away 69lbs (4st 9lbs) and 6" in height when he fought 6'3" 220lb heavyweight Jay D. Turner, but battered him anyway. Turner refusing to come out for the 7th round. The 6'1.5" 183lb Billy Conn fought Turner two months previous and beat Turner on points over 10 rounds.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 30,6306850
April 21st 1942 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Laughlin who is now handling Burley states he is still looking for a Burley-Zivic fight. If not Burley is willing to "fight anyone regardless of size and class"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 90,5264998
May 5th 1942 {The Pittsburgh Press} Burley set to fight Robinson in 1942
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 08,2141954
Between 11/12/1942 and 17/02/1947 (4 years and 2 months) Burley goes 23(12 KOs)-1-1 with 1 NC
August 4th 1945 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Maurice Slutsky, Burleys new manager looking forward to matching Burley and Robinson. Getting matches is hard because of his capabilities and unwillingness to do tank jobs. Burleys manager said Burley would do very well against the Sugar man. Burley will be kept busy with tune up fights to prepare him for the test if it comes from Robinson.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 803,249877
August 12th 1945 {The Pittsburgh Press} Just ask "Who wants to fight Charley Burley" and every named middleweight within hearing distance does not walk, but runs to the nearest exit
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 27,4190768
August 17th 1945 {The Pittsburgh Press} Burley said "I'd fight Robinson for nothing, he can have my purse".
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 83,5618807
August 22nd 1945 article {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} SRR wants $50,000 not the $25,000 offered by Burleys team. Instead SRR will fight the heavier LaMotta for a $25,000 purse.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 62,3804785
August 23rd 1945 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} SRR team are "demanding $50,000" to fight Burley (a fighter without a title). The author claiming "Robinson fears him and wants no part of him under any circumstances"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 15,3620812
December 12th 1945 {The Milwaukee Journal} Promotor Art Rooney offers SRR $20,000 to fight Burley. "Thats one we'd like to see"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 21,5389108
January 13th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} States "Robinson has refused time and time again to fight the clever Burley"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 54,3554843
February 26th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} The Rooney-McGinley company have wired $7,500 to Jimmy Johnston for Burley to fight Archie Moore again. Johnston replied saying they want $15,000.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 72,5719554
March 6th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Robinson talking about possible opponents and didn't know who to fight in Pittsburgh after beating Sammy Angott. Jake LaMotta, Beau Jack, Charley Burley and Marty Greco were mentioned as possible opponents. It was said Charley Burley would draw a tremendous throng but SRRs handlers demur (reluctance) when the Pittsburgh fighter is mentioned. SRR team turned down a $25,000 offer in 1945 to fight Burley. SRR earned $12,500 against Angott.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 45,4485876
March 14th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Charley Burley who is so good he "scares off" the better named fighters is in action tonight.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 58,3011858
July 16th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Burley one of the best middleweights is rated 2nd by Ring Magazine and the National Boxing Association ranks him the outstanding challenger for Tony Zale's title
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 49,4325836
October 3rd 1946 {The Milwaukee Journal} Jersey Jones has teamed up with Lew Burston to pilot the worlds best middleweight Charley Burley. Jones said when Burley saw the recent Zale-Graziano fracas he asked 'how long do you think it will take us to get him?' (meaning Zale)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 10,1275079
October 30th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} Charley Burley's ugly ducking of the middleweight division was officially today declared as the contender who might stop the rich middleweight division from being wrapped up for 18 months. Abe Green (President of the North Boxing Assoc) named Burley, who none of the middleweights want to fight, who might prevent the title wrap up. He urges a Burley bout and proposes Marcel Cerdan-Georgie Abrams meets the winner of a Burley-LaMotta fight for the right of a title shot. Burley managed by Lew Burston and Jersey Jones
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 468,217047
November 9th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} Charley Burley Pittsburgh middleweight made a bid for a crack for the winner of the championship bout between Tony Zale and Rocky Graziano by posting a $2,000 forfeit check with the New York State Boxing Commission
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,4091670
December 17th 1946 {The Miami News} IBHOF member Jersey Jones (former fighter, promoter, manager, newspaper reporter, magazine writer and corner man). Stating that Burley is the best middleweight in the world and avoided by all. Says LaMotta refused a $20,000 guarantee to fight him.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 024,820315
From August 1946 to his retirement in July 1950 (4 years) Burley only fought 8 times (6-2) such was the lack of opposition. His last bout was in Peru. He won his last 4 bouts. Prior to this 4 years of relative inactivity Burley fought from 1938-1946 where he had 90 bouts (averaging 10 a year)
January 3rd 1947 {Prescott Evening Courier} Jersey Jones moaning because Nat Roger, Mike Jacobs matchmaker hasn't even tried to bring Jake LaMotta and Churley Burley together while he's running the 'St Nicks Shows' in the Garden
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 346,119210
January 11th 1947 {The Afro American} Ring Magazine middleweight rankings.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 11,1035901
Champ: Tony Zale (white) - fought Graziano (x3), Abrams and Cerdan
1. Jack LaMotta (white) got title shot (fought SRR six times in 1942, 1943 (x2), 1945 (x2) and 1951)
2. Charley Burley (black) NO SHOT
3. Rocky Graziano (white) got title shot (fought SRR on April 16th 1952)
4. Marcel Cerdan (white) got title shot (beat Zale for title and defended against LaMotta)
5. Georgie Abrams (white) got title shot (fought SRR on May 16th 1947 and many thought beat him, loud boos from crowd). Abrams drew with Burley but many thought Burley won.
6. Bert Lytell (black) NO SHOT (went 1-1 with Burley and lost highly disputed decision to LaMotta in 1945)
7. Steve Belloise (white) NO SHOT lost middleweight eliminator fight to SRR on August 24th 1949
8. Artie Levine (white) NO SHOT lost to SRR on November 6th 1946 but almost knocked him out
February 13th 1947 {Reading Eagle} Marcel Cerdan and Jake LaMotta must be given their chance against Zale. Jersey Jones says Burley would slash his way through the entire list without any problem.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 72,3631945
December 31st 1947 {Ottawa Citizen} Burley interview. "The biggest purse I shared was $2,900 and I fought for as little as $20. It wasn't my managers fault, the other fighters just didn't want me or I had to fight on their terms". Burley says "the only bouts I can get are against the wolf at the door". He is compelled to earn a living as a garbage collector. He has been ranked at the top of the welterweight and middleweight divisions every year and with the same consistency has been snubbed by the top set. His partisans opined smart managers and by-passed him because he is too good.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 22,7021594
January 6th 1949 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Burley flanked by 6 others visited the Pittsburgh Gazette asking what they need to do to get a fight in his hometown (Pittsburgh).Burley said "Its the same old story, no one wants to meet me and promoters here wont give the chance to fight Sala. I can't get a bout, I'm ready to fight a prelim to prove I'm ready". The reporter says "A victim of being to good a fighter of his own good has always been Burleys trouble. The good ones and the bad ones don't want no part of him"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 71,1208361
Retires on July 22nd 1950 aged 32 years 10 months. (won his final 4 bouts)
March 29th 1981 {The Pittsburgh Press} Interview with Burley. Burley said "Jake Mintz a local manager and promoter came to me and said he might be able to get a 3 fight deal with Robinson but I would need to go down in the first bout. When I asked if I get a rematch I didn't get a definite answer"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 36,5377214
May 18th 1981 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Interview with Burley. Burley had four managers in his career. One was Zivic who bought his contract to avoid fighting him again. Another manager O'Loughlin said "Sugar Ray would never fight him, I know I tried several times"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 62,3302209
May 4th 1983 {The Pittsburgh Press} Interview with Burley. He said "The biggest purse I got in my career was $3,000". "When I was coming along as a boxer there were things you didn't talk about, other fighters, money under the table and weights. To get a fight you had to go along with anything. But that was long ago I don't want to run my mouth off about it now.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 86,3051915
He beat three future world champions, Fritzie Zivic (welterweight champ), Billy Soose (middleweight champ) and Archie Moore (light-heavyweight champ).
He was frozen out of the welterweight division because Cochrane held the title from 1941-46 without making a single defence because of WW2, so Burley was forced to fight bigger guys. Then Fritizie Zivics manager bought Burleys contract so he wouldn't have to fight him.
Often labelled the greatest fighter to have never fought for a world title and often said to have been avoided by Sugar Ray Robinson. Famously said by Eddie Futch to be "the finest all-around fighter I ever saw."
98 fights
----------
83 wins (50 KOs)
12 losses (never stopped)
2 draws
1 NC
Other wins over Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, Jack Chase, Aaron Wade and Bert Lytell.
Losses include 2 defeats by Ezzard Charles (in the space of 5 weeks of each other where Burley had a fight in between), a SD loss to Lloyd Marshall and a points loss to Jimmy Bivins (although Burley came close to stopping Bivins in the final round)
'Ring Magazine' had him in their top 10 for 100 months (from September 1938 to August 1947).
Some interesting articles below, from the start of his career to the end.
Charley Burley
Sept. 1936 turned pro aged 19 years exactly.
January 27th 1939 {The Pittsburgh Press}
Charley Burley, unbeaten in 8 starts but shunned by promoters for some peculiar reason
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 12,4407034
June 14th 1938 {The Pittsburgh Press} "Sure I'll fight Henry Armstrong, I'll fight anyone" claims Burley after beating Zivic, which he did beyond question. Burley showed what it takes to fight Armstong. "Zivic used his roughhouse techniques, gouging, heeling, thumbing and wrestling until the crown booed him loudly"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 53,2422718
January 28th 1939 {The Afro American} Welterweight 'sensation' Charley Burley rise has been sensational. He has blasted his way through the ranks. Ring Magazine ranks him 3rd to Armstrong.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 055,416530
May 11th 1939 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Chappie Bernstein, Burleys manager issued a writ. Fritizie Zivic got the worst beating of his career by Burley. "I cannot understand why Zivic is being lined up as a challenger to Henry Armstrong" Burley has all the skills to beat Armstrong. The WBA think so too and have ranked Burley number one challenger to Armstrong's welterweight title. Charles Burley has always given his best, never been in a bad fight, has won all his fights on his own merit and has yet to be censored for foul fighting. Its about time the local boxing scribes got behind a lad who is a credit to his profession. He is willing to meet any or all claimants for the chance to fight Armstrong. We don't go around the country fighting pushovers and setups to bolster our claim for the crack at the welterweight crown. Do Luke Carney (Zivics manager) and Zivic feel the same?"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 18,3990339
Between 03/09/1940 and 25/05/1942 (1 year and 8 months) Burley goes 20-0 (15 KOs)
February 11th 1940 {The Pittsburgh Press} "Charley Burley has had more chances than a 'fellow at a bingo game'. He beat Zivic twice and won near top rating among the welterweights. He beat Soose and began to look like there was a place for him as a middleweight contender"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 899,994319
October 29th 1940 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} "If Burley got his rightful chance at the middleweight crown..."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 13,1274899
May 6th 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette}. In just 4 years as a pro, white fighter Billy Soose has earned his title shot against fellow white fighter Ken Overlin as there are enough good stuff on his record. Burley beat Soose (WUD 10) and looked so good Soose was lucky to last past 5 rounds.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 52,4019192
July 16th 1941 {The Pittsburgh Press}. "Word about town is welterweight champion Fritzie Zivic is Burleys manager or at least holds a sizeable chunk of his contract"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 83,2663001
December 21st 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Laughlin writes that Burley is rapidly becoming a favourite in Minneapolis after two wins, he plans to put him in against a nationally known fighter after the first of the year.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 13,1178934
Cartoon from Minneapolis Star Journal and Tribune (January 21, 1942) - As early as January 1942 a cartoon in local newspaper shows Sugar Ray Robinson (top contender), Fritzie Zivic (white former champ who beat Armstrong for title, still top contender and now "owns" Burleys contract. Zivic fought SRR twice on October 31st 1941 and January 16th 1942), white Freddie 'Red' Cochrane (welterweight champ who beat Zivic for title) and white Young Kid McCoy (contender) diving through the ropes to avoid Burley.
January 2nd 1942 {Times Daily} article. Burley offers challenge to welterweight champ Freddie 'Red' Cochrane. Burley offered to donate his winnings to charity. "I'll even pay my own training expenses" said Burley.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 868,217662
February 1st 1942 {The Pittsburgh Press} Article about Zivic, he states "Tommy O'Loughlin is after me fighting Burley in Minneapolis and to think I once owned Burleys contract"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,2898981
February 7th 1942 {The Milwaukee Journal} Burley issues a new challenge to middleweight champ Tony Zale.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 42,2695465
March 13th 1942 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Loughlin (Burleys manager) wired Johnny Bay a $7,500 offer to fight recent heavyweight title challenger Billy Conn. Conns manager Bay wired back "make it $12,500 and you can fight welterweight Johnny Red Cregan" (Cregan only a journeyman!!). That night the 5'9" 151lb Burley gave away 69lbs (4st 9lbs) and 6" in height when he fought 6'3" 220lb heavyweight Jay D. Turner, but battered him anyway. Turner refusing to come out for the 7th round. The 6'1.5" 183lb Billy Conn fought Turner two months previous and beat Turner on points over 10 rounds.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 30,6306850
April 21st 1942 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Laughlin who is now handling Burley states he is still looking for a Burley-Zivic fight. If not Burley is willing to "fight anyone regardless of size and class"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 90,5264998
May 5th 1942 {The Pittsburgh Press} Burley set to fight Robinson in 1942
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 08,2141954
Between 11/12/1942 and 17/02/1947 (4 years and 2 months) Burley goes 23(12 KOs)-1-1 with 1 NC
August 4th 1945 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Maurice Slutsky, Burleys new manager looking forward to matching Burley and Robinson. Getting matches is hard because of his capabilities and unwillingness to do tank jobs. Burleys manager said Burley would do very well against the Sugar man. Burley will be kept busy with tune up fights to prepare him for the test if it comes from Robinson.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 803,249877
August 12th 1945 {The Pittsburgh Press} Just ask "Who wants to fight Charley Burley" and every named middleweight within hearing distance does not walk, but runs to the nearest exit
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 27,4190768
August 17th 1945 {The Pittsburgh Press} Burley said "I'd fight Robinson for nothing, he can have my purse".
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 83,5618807
August 22nd 1945 article {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} SRR wants $50,000 not the $25,000 offered by Burleys team. Instead SRR will fight the heavier LaMotta for a $25,000 purse.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 62,3804785
August 23rd 1945 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} SRR team are "demanding $50,000" to fight Burley (a fighter without a title). The author claiming "Robinson fears him and wants no part of him under any circumstances"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 15,3620812
December 12th 1945 {The Milwaukee Journal} Promotor Art Rooney offers SRR $20,000 to fight Burley. "Thats one we'd like to see"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 21,5389108
January 13th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} States "Robinson has refused time and time again to fight the clever Burley"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 54,3554843
February 26th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} The Rooney-McGinley company have wired $7,500 to Jimmy Johnston for Burley to fight Archie Moore again. Johnston replied saying they want $15,000.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 72,5719554
March 6th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Robinson talking about possible opponents and didn't know who to fight in Pittsburgh after beating Sammy Angott. Jake LaMotta, Beau Jack, Charley Burley and Marty Greco were mentioned as possible opponents. It was said Charley Burley would draw a tremendous throng but SRRs handlers demur (reluctance) when the Pittsburgh fighter is mentioned. SRR team turned down a $25,000 offer in 1945 to fight Burley. SRR earned $12,500 against Angott.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 45,4485876
March 14th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Charley Burley who is so good he "scares off" the better named fighters is in action tonight.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 58,3011858
July 16th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Burley one of the best middleweights is rated 2nd by Ring Magazine and the National Boxing Association ranks him the outstanding challenger for Tony Zale's title
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 49,4325836
October 3rd 1946 {The Milwaukee Journal} Jersey Jones has teamed up with Lew Burston to pilot the worlds best middleweight Charley Burley. Jones said when Burley saw the recent Zale-Graziano fracas he asked 'how long do you think it will take us to get him?' (meaning Zale)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 10,1275079
October 30th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} Charley Burley's ugly ducking of the middleweight division was officially today declared as the contender who might stop the rich middleweight division from being wrapped up for 18 months. Abe Green (President of the North Boxing Assoc) named Burley, who none of the middleweights want to fight, who might prevent the title wrap up. He urges a Burley bout and proposes Marcel Cerdan-Georgie Abrams meets the winner of a Burley-LaMotta fight for the right of a title shot. Burley managed by Lew Burston and Jersey Jones
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 468,217047
November 9th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} Charley Burley Pittsburgh middleweight made a bid for a crack for the winner of the championship bout between Tony Zale and Rocky Graziano by posting a $2,000 forfeit check with the New York State Boxing Commission
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,4091670
December 17th 1946 {The Miami News} IBHOF member Jersey Jones (former fighter, promoter, manager, newspaper reporter, magazine writer and corner man). Stating that Burley is the best middleweight in the world and avoided by all. Says LaMotta refused a $20,000 guarantee to fight him.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 024,820315
From August 1946 to his retirement in July 1950 (4 years) Burley only fought 8 times (6-2) such was the lack of opposition. His last bout was in Peru. He won his last 4 bouts. Prior to this 4 years of relative inactivity Burley fought from 1938-1946 where he had 90 bouts (averaging 10 a year)
January 3rd 1947 {Prescott Evening Courier} Jersey Jones moaning because Nat Roger, Mike Jacobs matchmaker hasn't even tried to bring Jake LaMotta and Churley Burley together while he's running the 'St Nicks Shows' in the Garden
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 346,119210
January 11th 1947 {The Afro American} Ring Magazine middleweight rankings.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 11,1035901
Champ: Tony Zale (white) - fought Graziano (x3), Abrams and Cerdan
1. Jack LaMotta (white) got title shot (fought SRR six times in 1942, 1943 (x2), 1945 (x2) and 1951)
2. Charley Burley (black) NO SHOT
3. Rocky Graziano (white) got title shot (fought SRR on April 16th 1952)
4. Marcel Cerdan (white) got title shot (beat Zale for title and defended against LaMotta)
5. Georgie Abrams (white) got title shot (fought SRR on May 16th 1947 and many thought beat him, loud boos from crowd). Abrams drew with Burley but many thought Burley won.
6. Bert Lytell (black) NO SHOT (went 1-1 with Burley and lost highly disputed decision to LaMotta in 1945)
7. Steve Belloise (white) NO SHOT lost middleweight eliminator fight to SRR on August 24th 1949
8. Artie Levine (white) NO SHOT lost to SRR on November 6th 1946 but almost knocked him out
February 13th 1947 {Reading Eagle} Marcel Cerdan and Jake LaMotta must be given their chance against Zale. Jersey Jones says Burley would slash his way through the entire list without any problem.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 72,3631945
December 31st 1947 {Ottawa Citizen} Burley interview. "The biggest purse I shared was $2,900 and I fought for as little as $20. It wasn't my managers fault, the other fighters just didn't want me or I had to fight on their terms". Burley says "the only bouts I can get are against the wolf at the door". He is compelled to earn a living as a garbage collector. He has been ranked at the top of the welterweight and middleweight divisions every year and with the same consistency has been snubbed by the top set. His partisans opined smart managers and by-passed him because he is too good.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 22,7021594
January 6th 1949 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Burley flanked by 6 others visited the Pittsburgh Gazette asking what they need to do to get a fight in his hometown (Pittsburgh).Burley said "Its the same old story, no one wants to meet me and promoters here wont give the chance to fight Sala. I can't get a bout, I'm ready to fight a prelim to prove I'm ready". The reporter says "A victim of being to good a fighter of his own good has always been Burleys trouble. The good ones and the bad ones don't want no part of him"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 71,1208361
Retires on July 22nd 1950 aged 32 years 10 months. (won his final 4 bouts)
March 29th 1981 {The Pittsburgh Press} Interview with Burley. Burley said "Jake Mintz a local manager and promoter came to me and said he might be able to get a 3 fight deal with Robinson but I would need to go down in the first bout. When I asked if I get a rematch I didn't get a definite answer"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 36,5377214
May 18th 1981 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Interview with Burley. Burley had four managers in his career. One was Zivic who bought his contract to avoid fighting him again. Another manager O'Loughlin said "Sugar Ray would never fight him, I know I tried several times"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 62,3302209
May 4th 1983 {The Pittsburgh Press} Interview with Burley. He said "The biggest purse I got in my career was $3,000". "When I was coming along as a boxer there were things you didn't talk about, other fighters, money under the table and weights. To get a fight you had to go along with anything. But that was long ago I don't want to run my mouth off about it now.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 86,3051915
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prewarboxing
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 641
- Joined: 22 Jul 2007, 02:58
Re: Charley Burley?
Now that's what I call a post. Terrific stuff. Adds to the debate. Informs the opinion. Educates people. Lots of data and facts.
Geddit Kalan?
Miles Templeton.
Geddit Kalan?
Miles Templeton.
Re: Charley Burley?
It beats the HELL out of you and Chuck.
I’m used to people shutting their eyes to facts. Without them people like Hitler, Dubya, Trump and Norris wouldn’t conspire and scramble to positions of power.
You come across as a snobbish reactionary who doesn’t think... I note posts that are intelligent, interesting, and express originality – or merely make excuses for a corrupt sport that often excluded some of the greatest boxers in Fistic History from deserved match-ups and Title Fights. At times because they were Black, Eastern European, Cuban, or for whatever reason they were denied deserved match-ups and Title Fights. Lesser fighters got Title Fights in their place. Maybe they simply refused to sell their souls to immoral manipulators like Jim Norris.prewarboxing wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 04:34Might it be possible for you to respond to Chuck's intelligent and interesting post with a little more originality and thought?Kalan wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 04:12 Charley Burley wasn't worth watching??? Yet he knocked Archie Moore down 4 times and boxed the piss out of him in masterful fashion? .... Would you rather watch a crude swinger who doesn't know what he's doing?
What little of Burley there is on tape he was a pleasure to watch... Maybe he needed a publicity agent.
You come across as being a little childish here.
Miles Templeton.
I’m used to people shutting their eyes to facts. Without them people like Hitler, Dubya, Trump and Norris wouldn’t conspire and scramble to positions of power.
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Counter-puncher
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 39141
- Joined: 20 May 2008, 11:41
Re: Charley Burley?
here's a fact for you:Kalan wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 12:21 It beats the HELL out of you and Chuck.
I’m used to people shutting their eyes to facts. Without them people like Hitler, Dubya, Trump and Norris wouldn’t conspire and scramble to positions of power.prewarboxing wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 04:34Might it be possible for you to respond to Chuck's intelligent and interesting post with a little more originality and thought?Kalan wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 04:12 Charley Burley wasn't worth watching??? Yet he knocked Archie Moore down 4 times and boxed the piss out of him in masterful fashion? .... Would you rather watch a crude swinger who doesn't know what he's doing?
What little of Burley there is on tape he was a pleasure to watch... Maybe he needed a publicity agent.
You come across as being a little childish here.
Miles Templeton.
Chris Eubank jr is NOT one of the smartest fighters of all time.
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prewarboxing
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 641
- Joined: 22 Jul 2007, 02:58
Re: Charley Burley?
Evidently I am a snobbish reactionary.Kalan wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 12:21 It beats the HELL out of you and Chuck.
You come across as a snobbish reactionary who doesn’t think... I note posts that are intelligent, interesting, and express originality – or merely make excuses for a corrupt sport that often excluded some of the greatest boxers in Fistic History from deserved match-ups and Title Fights. At times because they were Black, Eastern European, Cuban, or for whatever reason they were denied deserved match-ups and Title Fights. Lesser fighters got Title Fights in their place. Maybe they simply refused to sell their souls to immoral manipulators like Jim Norris.prewarboxing wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 04:34Might it be possible for you to respond to Chuck's intelligent and interesting post with a little more originality and thought?Kalan wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 04:12 Charley Burley wasn't worth watching??? Yet he knocked Archie Moore down 4 times and boxed the piss out of him in masterful fashion? .... Would you rather watch a crude swinger who doesn't know what he's doing?
What little of Burley there is on tape he was a pleasure to watch... Maybe he needed a publicity agent.
You come across as being a little childish here.
Miles Templeton.
I’m used to people shutting their eyes to facts. Without them people like Hitler, Dubya, Trump and Norris wouldn’t conspire and scramble to positions of power.
I have only got one thing to say to that:
This will be my last post on the subject of Kalan. I suggest we all do the same and move on.
Miles Templeton.
Re: Charley Burley?
I wish there was more footage of Charley Burley. From what I've seen he's a real sharp fighter with lots of old school tricks up his sleeve that you don't see much anymore.
There's a book called "Charley Burley and the Black Murderers Row" about him and similarly overlooked greats of the era. I'd like to read that one.
There's a book called "Charley Burley and the Black Murderers Row" about him and similarly overlooked greats of the era. I'd like to read that one.
Re: Charley Burley?
I am one who believes that Charley Burley was a truly great fighter and a fine man with a great devotion to his family. In addition, Burley had a terrific work ethic while training or holding down jobs. But he didn't have a crowd-pleasing fighting style or a colorful personality. Under such circumstances, Burley faced an uphill battle in getting a title shot or lucrative bouts even if he had the best boxing manager in the world.
It is likely that Burley never received a purse of more than $4,500. or drew a gate of more than $16,000. while fighting in a "stand-alone" main event. Keeping that in mind, what boxing promoter or backer was going put up a $20,000. or $25,000. purse for Sugar Ray Robinson or Jake LaMotta to fight Burley? Yes, there were some news reports that there was a promoter or backer who was willing to do that, but I wonder if those reports were true. It is hard to believe that anyone would put up that much money to have someone fight a mediocre gate attraction at best. Boxing is a business.
- Chuck Johnston
It is likely that Burley never received a purse of more than $4,500. or drew a gate of more than $16,000. while fighting in a "stand-alone" main event. Keeping that in mind, what boxing promoter or backer was going put up a $20,000. or $25,000. purse for Sugar Ray Robinson or Jake LaMotta to fight Burley? Yes, there were some news reports that there was a promoter or backer who was willing to do that, but I wonder if those reports were true. It is hard to believe that anyone would put up that much money to have someone fight a mediocre gate attraction at best. Boxing is a business.
- Chuck Johnston
Last edited by Chuck1052 on 18 May 2018, 12:34, edited 2 times in total.
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BroughtonRulesRefuge
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 06:55
Re: Charley Burley?
- Burley black father died when he was in elementary school and his Irish mom by way of Cork moved to Pittsburg.
Had six sisters in rough times, but he was a good enough boxer to be offered a spot on the 1936 Olympic team with Jesse Owens. He instead opted for the communist Workers Game in France that were canceled in the Spanish revolution, so Burley was already marching to a different drummer at age 19.
Reported to have gone thru maybe a dozen mangers, well, he was tough to deal with. The Smith footage makes him indistinct from a journeyman. He may have been a hot/cold fighter of a higher calling than the fight biz that he never found. Also those 4 yrs of ww2 pretty much killed title defenses.
In the end, we have the record and Futch testimonial, perhaps a lesser Greb, yet still pretty damn good in a quiet whisper sort of way.
Had six sisters in rough times, but he was a good enough boxer to be offered a spot on the 1936 Olympic team with Jesse Owens. He instead opted for the communist Workers Game in France that were canceled in the Spanish revolution, so Burley was already marching to a different drummer at age 19.
Reported to have gone thru maybe a dozen mangers, well, he was tough to deal with. The Smith footage makes him indistinct from a journeyman. He may have been a hot/cold fighter of a higher calling than the fight biz that he never found. Also those 4 yrs of ww2 pretty much killed title defenses.
In the end, we have the record and Futch testimonial, perhaps a lesser Greb, yet still pretty damn good in a quiet whisper sort of way.
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Controversial
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9152
- Joined: 13 Jul 2002, 18:29
Re: Charley Burley?
Chuck1052 wrote: ↑15 May 2018, 13:00 I am one who believes that Charley Burley was a truly great fighter and a fine man with a great devotion to his family. In addition, Burley had a terrific work ethic while training or holding down jobs. But he didn't have a crowd-pleasing fighting style or a colorful personality. Under such circumstances, Burley faced an uphill battle in getting a title shot or lucrative bouts even if he had the best boxing manager in the world.
It is likely that Burley never received a purse of more than $4,500. or drew a gate of more than $16,000. while fighting in a "stand-alone" main event. Keeping that in mind, what boxing promoter or backer was going put up a $20,000. or $25,000. purse for Sugar Ray Robinson or Jake LaMotta to fight Burley? Yes, there were some news reports to there was a promoter or backer who was willing to do that, but I wonder if those reports were true. It is hard to believe that anyone would put up that much money to have someone fight a mediocre gate attraction at best. Boxing is a business.
- Chuck Johnston
I get what your saying however on the flip side to box for 14 years and not get a title shot looks like he was being avoided to me. In regards to SRR he fought many guys in non-title fights, I'm sure Burley would've taken his chance if offered and I bet most of SRR opponents didn't get anywhere near $25,000
Re: Charley Burley?
I believe it is unfair that Charley Burley didn't get a shot at a world title. But I was trying to point out that Burley not being a good gate attraction and not being an exciting fighter were important factors in him not getting a shot at world title, probably much more than his race.
- Chuck Johnston
- Chuck Johnston