ATG p4p lomachenko

[SenorPipino]

..no doubt an excellent start..2-time Olympic champ has the potential..I guess we can revisit this matter in the next 3-5 years..

That length of time would be appropriate.

A problem for Lomachenko might be that although it's early in his career, he's taken to the trend of fighting maybe twice a year.

Unless he's strictly taking on elite fighters, his career log figures to be pretty slim when he retires.

Beating Garcia and even Pacquiao at 140 would help his cause, even if aging Pacquiao's skills have eroded.

Lomachenko simply seems too small to ever deal with top welters. Linares' size and strength posed some problems and Linares is a very solid but not elite fighter.

I can't imagine Lomachenko ever overcoming any of the top 147 pounders.

[jamamb]

martnezs a better w then marraga to me. martnzez beat saldo and dropped garca. and was a champ at 130 2x. marraga was just brought up from 126 and hadnt done much there

[Cent0089]

Imagine this:
Lomachenko against Berchelt in august and against Davis in winter. Garcia against Easter in july and against Linares in winter. That is 4 very good fights this year. And IF ( i say IF ) they can defeat this oposition, just imagine Loma-Garcia event at Cinco de Mayo 2019. maybe .....

[Mexi-Box]

martnezs a better w then marraga to me. martnzez beat saldo and dropped garca. and was a champ at 130 2x. marraga was just brought up from 126 and hadnt done much there

Just about all of Martinez's wins were controversial. He definitely lost to Burgos, I had him losing to Magdaleno, and he lost to Salido for sure in their second fight. Other than the knockdown, Martinez wasn't even competitive with Garcia.

Marriaga gave Walters a hell of a fight and was outsized. He was also competitive with Valdez. Martinez was way past prime when Lomachenko fought him and was arguably 1-4 in his last five when he fought Lomachenko.

[Lackeos]

Because he beat Jorge Linares???? I don't even consider Pacquiao top 50 all-time p4p, and he beat Barrera multiple times, Marquez multiple times, Morales multiple times, Bradley multiple times, Cotto, Hatton, etc.; all of whom were considered better p4p at the time of the fight than Linares was when Lomachenko fought him. It's like... Pacquiao has more than 10 wins against top 10 p4p fighters, and he's not top 50. I guess once Lomachenko beats 2x top 35 p4p all-time opponents, or like 8x current top 5 p4p opponents, or 16x current top 10 p4p opponents; then maybe he'll be top 10 p4p all-time. So anyways, no. Lomachenko isn't even a little bit close yet.

[Abradolf Lincler]

I have a hard time seeing any modern fighter break into an all time top 10 pound for pound, even if the ability is there. I made a somewhat detailed post on this before.

His skills are all time great material, but I don't see how he can ever be recognized at that level with the minimal amount of fights he'll end up with. Certainly not top 10, but an all time great? Yeah, I can see that. It's not always about longevity. Look at an old timer like Terry McGovern.

[gilgamesh]

I have a hard time seeing any modern fighter break into an all time top 10 pound for pound, even if the ability is there. I made a somewhat detailed post on this before.

His skills are all time great material, but I don't see how he can ever be recognized at that level with the minimal amount of fights he'll end up with. Certainly not top 10, but an all time great? Yeah, I can see that. It's not always about longevity. Look at an old timer like Terry McGovern.

Yeah there are plenty of people who would surely qualify as All Time Greats even if they don't crack the Top 100 All Time. This isn't a comment on them either, merely a reflection of the rich history of one of the World's oldest sports.

[SenorPipino]

Because he beat Jorge Linares???? I don't even consider Pacquiao top 50 all-time p4p, and he beat Barrera multiple times, Marquez multiple times, Morales multiple times, Bradley multiple times, Cotto, Hatton, etc.; all of whom were considered better p4p at the time of the fight than Linares was when Lomachenko fought him. It's like... Pacquiao has more than 10 wins against top 10 p4p fighters, and he's not top 50. I guess once Lomachenko beats 2x top 35 p4p all-time opponents, or like 8x current top 5 p4p opponents, or 16x current top 10 p4p opponents; then maybe he'll be top 10 p4p all-time. So anyways, no. Lomachenko isn't even a little bit close yet.

I think you're being hard on Pac for not considering him top #50 all time P4P.

Especially when you consider how tiny he was at the beginning of his career.

Oh wait. I'll pause for the onslaught of PED comments.

But by reciting a litany of Pac's accomplishments, you made a pretty good case for his high place in fistic history.

However you're very correct that conquering Linares shouldn't immediately warrant a spot in the HOF for Lomachenko.

No one ever talked about Linares in the same breath as a Duran or Whitaker or Leonard (Benny) or Buchanan or Ortiz.

Just a solid, dangerous guy but not a truly special fighter.

[Lackeos]

Because he beat Jorge Linares???? I don't even consider Pacquiao top 50 all-time p4p, and he beat Barrera multiple times, Marquez multiple times, Morales multiple times, Bradley multiple times, Cotto, Hatton, etc.; all of whom were considered better p4p at the time of the fight than Linares was when Lomachenko fought him. It's like... Pacquiao has more than 10 wins against top 10 p4p fighters, and he's not top 50. I guess once Lomachenko beats 2x top 35 p4p all-time opponents, or like 8x current top 5 p4p opponents, or 16x current top 10 p4p opponents; then maybe he'll be top 10 p4p all-time. So anyways, no. Lomachenko isn't even a little bit close yet.

I think you're being hard on Pac for not considering him top #50 all time P4P.

Especially when you consider how tiny he was at the beginning of his career.

Oh wait. I'll pause for the onslaught of PED comments.

But by reciting a litany of Pac's accomplishments, you made a pretty good case for his high place in fistic history.

However you're very correct that conquering Linares shouldn't immediately warrant a spot in the HOF for Lomachenko.

No one ever talked about Linares in the same breath as a Duran or Whitaker or Leonard (Benny) or Buchanan or Ortiz.

Just a solid, dangerous guy but not a truly special fighter.

Prior to Mayweather - Pacquiao (in the years prior build-up, actually), the consensus on the forum seemed to be that Pacquiao was like #40-50 p4p and that Mayweather was like #70 p4p. Given the events that have unfolded since 2012, including Mayweather's win over Pacquiao, my opinion is that Mayweather has moved into at least the #25 spot, and Pacquiao has fallen into a spot outside the top 50.

I have pretty much always been a fan of Pacquiao, never given him less credit than he deserved, or hurled undeserved PED accusations at him. But I've merely taken what I believed to be the consensus, and made reasonable adjustments based on the events sicne.

Of course, we could ask the forum for its new consensus, but a lot of the newer posters are nowhere close to estimating all-time rankings accurately. Every other week you see ridiculous threads like "Mikey Garcia just beat Sergey Lipinets. Does this make him top 10 p4p all-time?" Actually, come to think of it, we're literally posting in one of those threads right now.

[jpspice]

ATG p4p, Loma? Check back in about 50 fights.

[gilgamesh]

ATG p4p, Loma? Check back in about 50 fights.

Wouldn't necessarily take that many. It would just take at least a dozen more marquee victories. Not just wins, but BIG NAME wins.

After all Sugar Ray Leonard doesn't have 50 fights or even 40 wins, but I don't think anybody could deny that he's an ATG because the people he beat were REALLY great fighters.

[jpspice]

ATG p4p, Loma? Check back in about 50 fights.

Wouldn't necessarily take that many. It would just take at least a dozen more marquee victories. Not just wins, but BIG NAME wins.

After all Sugar Ray Leonard doesn't have 50 fights or even 40 wins, but I don't think anybody could deny that he's an ATG because the people he beat were REALLY great fighters.

Good point, but Loma has a ways to go.

[gregregegg]

Depends on who he can get to fight him, witch depends on how much money he has to throw at them. Imagine if he just happened to have proper coin to throw. He would of got all the belts at featherweight, all the belts at super feather, and now be on his way to potentially all the belts at lightweight and then cherry picking some weaker 140 lb belt holders. If that were the case he would be all time great. but its not. so to be all time great he has to pray that people want to fight him, or he can make offers they cant refuse, then he just has to try win those fights....

[Mexi-Box]

Depends on who he can get to fight him, witch depends on how much money he has to throw at them. Imagine if he just happened to have proper coin to throw. He would of got all the belts at featherweight, all the belts at super feather, and now be on his way to potentially all the belts at lightweight and then cherry picking some weaker 140 lb belt holders. If that were the case he would be all time great. but its not. so to be all time great he has to pray that people want to fight him, or he can make offers they cant refuse, then he just has to try win those fights....

True, his best weight was likely FW. Not sure who would've beaten him between Frampton, Mares, Santa Cruz, and Selby. At SFW, things aren't so cut-and-dry. I still think Berchelt would've gave him an even tougher fight than Linares.

I don't think he's beating Mikey at 135 lbs., though.

Thankfully, opponents haven't been an issue with Lomachenko. He's gotten Rigondeaux, Linares, GRJ, and Walters in the ring with him. These are all fights that people were asking for, and he's received them. Don't try to make it out like Lomachenko is some consistently ducked fighter like GGG was early in his career or Rigondeaux was after he beat Donaire.

[Heretic]

nope, not even close to top 10 p4p ever

Not yet, the question was "Will he get there"...he might.

That being said, I don't even know if there's really enough out there for him to achieve it.

Beating Mikey Garcia is the biggest possible achievement I can see out there for him, beyond that he'd be facing people that are simply TOO BIG for him I think.

To truly be Top 10 all time he'd have to take his show successfully all the way up to Welterweight, and be able to beat those guys too. I just can't see it...but let's never say never.

So you are saying that a small guy can never be p4p top 10 of all time? Is it not the reason for the whole concept of p4p?

Loma definitely has what it takes to get there but he still has loads of work to do before he is there.

[DrDuke]

He has such a potential. He will most likely be considered as a one of ATGs anyway, maybe not in the top-10, cause boxing history is too great, filled with plenty of remarkable names, but still it will be an achievement.

[Lackeos]

Depends on who he can get to fight him, witch depends on how much money he has to throw at them

It also depends on who exists. He can't get a fight with a prime Duran, Hagler, Hearns, Benitez, Pryor, JCC, Whitaker, SRR, Armstrong, Mayweather, Pacquiao, De La Hoya, Napoles, Griffith, etc.

Even if Lomachenko gets a fight with Garcia, Crawford, and Spence; he better hope that they notch some really bonkers Superman wins before he fights them. He can't get a top 10 all-time resume just by beating the #1 lightweight. He needs things like the lightweight division to have a super 6 tournament, and then Lomachenko fights the winner. Then for the LWW division to have a super 6 tournament, and then Lomachenko fights the winner. Since Mikey Garcia's big absence in 2014-2016 (which theoretically could have diminished his abilities, forcing him to re-prove himself all over), he's returned to beat Elio Rojas, Zlaticanin, Broner, and Lipinets. That is hardly the resume of an ATG like Bernard Hopkins. Lomachenko needs Garcia to have an ATG resume, Garcia needs to beat an elite opponent at 140, and Garcia basically needs a tournament between Prograis, Postol, Relikh, and Mimoune / Taylor before he can even fight a suitable opponent worth calling elite.

[gilgamesh]

nope, not even close to top 10 p4p ever

Not yet, the question was "Will he get there"...he might.

That being said, I don't even know if there's really enough out there for him to achieve it.

Beating Mikey Garcia is the biggest possible achievement I can see out there for him, beyond that he'd be facing people that are simply TOO BIG for him I think.

To truly be Top 10 all time he'd have to take his show successfully all the way up to Welterweight, and be able to beat those guys too. I just can't see it...but let's never say never.

So you are saying that a small guy can never be p4p top 10 of all time? Is it not the reason for the whole concept of p4p?

Loma definitely has what it takes to get there but he still has loads of work to do before he is there.

Did I say that? Because I'm pretty sure that's not what I said at all.

I'm saying he'd need Marquee wins and names, and frankly for him to get marquee wins and names on his record he'd have to go all the way up to Welterweight because beyond maybe 4 or 5 names the well runs dry at 135 on down....and he's still not P4P Top 10 all time.

There really aren't that many Marquee names among the little guys, but if you had a dominant enough run for a long enough amount of time you could possibly become one of the All Time Greatest.

That being said Ricardo Lopez is probably the best ever at 105, and I don't think too many people would have him inside the All Time Top 30 or 40...but that's not a comment on his talent, it's a comment on the lack of marquee names on his resume.

It would be hard for those guys to achieve becaue there ARE no marquee names in those weight classes usually. Right now the current 115 pound division and the focus it's being given are an exception.

[greg]

..for starters, I guess I would like to see this p4p ATG list to know exactly who I should compare Lomachenko to...next step I would look carefully what exactly this or that ATG had achieved in his first 13 bouts and proceed from there...

[gilgamesh]

..for starters, I guess I would like to see this p4p ATG list to know exactly who I should compare Lomachenko to...next step I would look carefully what exactly this or that ATG had achieved in his first 13 bouts and proceed from there...

It's debatable of course, but these are the guys I'd have as the Top 10 All Time

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Harry Greb
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Archie Moore
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

[man]

I don't even consider Pacquiao top 50 all-time p4p, and he beat Barrera multiple times, Marquez multiple times, Morales multiple times, Bradley multiple times, Cotto, Hatton, etc

sorry, i think you just try to sound
clever. how on earth can pac not
be top 50?? that is just silly.

[man]

..for starters, I guess I would like to see this p4p ATG list to know exactly who I should compare Lomachenko to...next step I would look carefully what exactly this or that ATG had achieved in his first 13 bouts and proceed from there...

It's debatable of course, but these are the guys I'd have as the Top 10 All Time

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Harry Greb
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Archie Moore
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

good list for me. though p4p i would
not have moore in there.

[gilgamesh]

..for starters, I guess I would like to see this p4p ATG list to know exactly who I should compare Lomachenko to...next step I would look carefully what exactly this or that ATG had achieved in his first 13 bouts and proceed from there...

It's debatable of course, but these are the guys I'd have as the Top 10 All Time

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Sam Langford
3. Ezzard Charles
4. Harry Greb
5. Henry Armstrong
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Muhammad Ali
9. Archie Moore
10. Sugar Ray Leonard

good list for me. though p4p i would
not have moore in there.

Who would you replace him with?

[boxing_rocks]

Harry Greb

[Abradolf Lincler]

Harry Greb

Was he a funny guy or something?