Rubin "The Hurricane" Carter.

[NYDominican]

Rubin "The Hurricane" Carter had wins over Sugar Boy Nando, Gomeo Brennan, Farid Salim, Joe N'Gidi, and Wilbert McClure.

Rubin also had top wins over these boxers. ---------- Florentino Fernandez, Holly Mims, Jimmy Ellis, and Emile Griffith. Carter's victory over Emile was very impressive.


Questions. ----------


1. Do you think that Rubin and John Artis were framed?



2. If Carter was framed, had Rubin not been framed. ---------------

Had Carter fought well past 1966, do you think that Rubin Carter could have been one of the top middleweights of all time? If so, why? If not, why not?



Please explain.

[oogiebe]

Rubin "The Hurricane" Carter had wins over Sugar Boy Nando, Gomeo Brennan, Farid Salim, Joe N'Gidi, and Wilbert McClure.

Rubin also had top wins over these boxers. ---------- Florentino Fernandez, Holly Mims, Jimmy Ellis, and Emile Griffith. Carter's victory over Emile was very impressive.


Questions. ----------


1. Do you think that Rubin and John Artis were framed?



2. If Carter was framed, had Rubin not been framed. ---------------

Had Carter fought well past 1966, do you think that Rubin Carter could have been one of the top middleweights of all time? If so, why? If not, why not?



Please explain.

1 - IDK
2 - IDK
3 - No - he wasn't all that great. He wasn't all that young either.

[klompton]

Guilty

One of the greatest? Look at his record. He was 4-4 in his last 8 fights losing to legends like Johnny Morris, Stan Harrington, and Rocky Rivero. In short, no. Hes incredibly overrated based on one win against a welterweight that he would have never been able to repeat. His two next best wins were supposedly fixes. So no, he was nothing special. He could punch his ass off but you could take his punch or avoid it he was nothing better than average on his best day.

[SenorPipino]

I don't know if Carter was framed. Very possible.

But he spent much of his life behind bars, including his youth.

He was a self admitted bad ass, so committing murder is not out of the realm of possibility.

I think Klompton gave a pretty good account of where Carter stands among middleweights.

A decent enough, hard punching tough guy, but if his career had not been interrupted, no, he wouldn't have been an ATG.

He was already on the slide.

But Dylan's 1975 ode to the Hurricane was a great tune.

[HomicideHenry]

He was guilty. He was offered on four different occasions that if he could pass a lie detector that he'd walk out scott free. He refused all four times. Who the hell gets that kind of deal and refuses? I've certainly never heard of anyone else ever being offered anything like that.

There's a website out there that breaks the entire case down and shows that it was obviously him and nobody else. Mind you the Supreme Court NEVER said that he was innocent. What the court ruled was that because it was highly probable that he was treated unfairly because of his race, that the investigation therefore was tainted.

That's why Carter spent the rest of his life in Canada, because, there was an effort made to bring him back to stand trial on the basis of the evidence and NOT some sort of racist agenda that may or may have been there. He knew he'd get locked up again.

It's like the OJ Simpson case. All the evidence in the world showed it was him. He just got off because of an alternative facts scenario because they knew they couldn't save his ass directly dealing with the evidence.

[Like a Boss]

But Dylan's 1975 ode to the Hurricane was a great tune.

It was a great song, and Dylan was a very strong advocate for Carter until later on, when he delved a bit deeper.

[SenorPipino]

He was guilty. He was offered on four different occasions that if he could pass a lie detector that he'd walk out scott free. He refused all four times. Who the hell gets that kind of deal and refuses? I've certainly never heard of anyone else ever being offered anything like that.

There's a website out there that breaks the entire case down and shows that it was obviously him and nobody else. Mind you the Supreme Court NEVER said that he was innocent. What the court ruled was that because it was highly probable that he was treated unfairly because of his race, that the investigation therefore was tainted.

That's why Carter spent the rest of his life in Canada, because, there was an effort made to bring him back to stand trial on the basis of the evidence and NOT some sort of racist agenda that may or may have been there. He knew he'd get locked up again.

It's like the OJ Simpson case. All the evidence in the world showed it was him. He just got off because of an alternative facts scenario because they knew they couldn't save his ass directly dealing with the evidence.

Could he have been legally returned to the US to stand trial again., HH?

What about the Double Jeopardy clause in the Constitution?

Carter was never technically acquited in trial, but doesn't Double Jeopardy prohibit anyone from being tried for the same offense after either conviction or acquittal?

[SenorPipino]

But Dylan's 1975 ode to the Hurricane was a great tune.

It was a great song, and Dylan was a very strong advocate for Carter until later on, when he delved a bit deeper.

I didn't know that Dylan "changed his tune"about the Hurricane.

He surprisingly wasn't a visible or vocal figure when Carter was eventually freed in the 80s. Especially after holding several benefit concerts years earlier to raise money for Carter's appeals.

Did Dylan express some doubts about Carter's innocence or did he flat out consider him guilty?

[Tony1244]

Dylan hasn't played that song since 1975 or 1976.

I don't know if he is guilty, but he wasn't a great young fighter. He was a merely a good contender.

Dylan is part of the old folk tradition that accuracy in songs is far less important than telling a good story and he admits this.

[Tony1244]

Dylan was sued by Patti Valentine for defamation due to the lyrics of the song.

I Loved Dylan's defense. "I'm a songwriter and you have such a beautiful name, I had to put it in there."

[SenorPipino]

Dylan hasn't played that song since 1975 or 1976.

I don't know if he is guilty, but he wasn't a great young fighter. He was a merely a good contender.

Dylan is part of the old folk tradition that accuracy in songs is far less important than telling a good story and he admits this.

I loved the song (violins and harmonica) but hated that Dylan presented Carter as some sort of saintly figure.

If you weren't familiar with Carter's lifetime of sociopathic and criminal behaviour, the song would have given you the impression that the Hurricane was Christ and Ghandi rolled into one.

[Tony1244]

Dylan hasn't played that song since 1975 or 1976.

I don't know if he is guilty, but he wasn't a great young fighter. He was a merely a good contender.

Dylan is part of the old folk tradition that accuracy in songs is far less important than telling a good story and he admits this.

I loved the song (violins and harmonica) but hated that Dylan presented Carter as some sort of saintly figure.

If you weren't familiar with Carter's lifetime of sociopathic and criminal behaviour, the song would have given you the impression that the Hurricane was Christ and Ghandi rolled into one.

I agree, but I try not to take these things too seriously. Like I said in another post, he's a great story teller and stories aren't always accurate and sometimes don't even try to be.

I'm probably tied here on boxrec with another poster for being a big Dylan fan. But sure he's flawed too, and if he could sell his music to another demographic, why not go for it I guess.

But maybe Dylan bought the hype at the time. Ali and Frazier were pro Hurricane Carter as well.

[SenorPipino]

Yes, Ali was a major player in trying to get Carter freed.

Carter was a major trendy cause back then but I wonder how many celebrities knew anything about his background and propensity for violence.

Hell, when he was originally freed from prison pending retrial, Carter promptly went out and knocked a woman cold.

[Tony1244]

Yes, Ali was a major player in trying to get Carter freed.

Carter was a major trendy cause back then but I wonder how many celebrities knew anything about his background and propensity for violence.

Hell, when he was originally freed from prison pending retrial, Carter promptly went out and knocked a woman cold.

I looked up Dylan's last performance of Hurricane. Jan. 25, 1976. A day after Foreman vs Lyle. I didn't have to look up the date of Foreman-Lyle. :)

They probably didn't know. Ali and Frazier were busy training and Dylan was busy shuffling his songs and bands and getting laid.

[Like a Boss]

But Dylan's 1975 ode to the Hurricane was a great tune.

It was a great song, and Dylan was a very strong advocate for Carter until later on, when he delved a bit deeper.

I didn't know that Dylan "changed his tune"about the Hurricane.

He surprisingly wasn't a visible or vocal figure when Carter was eventually freed in the 80s. Especially after holding several benefit concerts years earlier to raise money for Carter's appeals.

Did Dylan express some doubts about Carter's innocence or did he flat out consider him guilty?

Years ago I read extensively about Carter, and It wasn't long after Carter was released from jail that Dylan completely changed his tune about him. Hard to be sure if it was a case of Dylan doubting Carter's innocence or accepting his guilt?

[bwu]

He was guilty. He was offered on four different occasions that if he could pass a lie detector that he'd walk out scott free. He refused all four times. Who the hell gets that kind of deal and refuses? I've certainly never heard of anyone else ever being offered anything like that.

There's a website out there that breaks the entire case down and shows that it was obviously him and nobody else. Mind you the Supreme Court NEVER said that he was innocent. What the court ruled was that because it was highly probable that he was treated unfairly because of his race, that the investigation therefore was tainted.

That's why Carter spent the rest of his life in Canada, because, there was an effort made to bring him back to stand trial on the basis of the evidence and NOT some sort of racist agenda that may or may have been there. He knew he'd get locked up again.

It's like the OJ Simpson case. All the evidence in the world showed it was him. He just got off because of an alternative facts scenario because they knew they couldn't save his ass directly dealing with the evidence.

Probably guilty, but it was an improper conviction. He didn't run to Canada to escape. The prosecution declined to try him a third time for various reasons, including the passage of time and the charges against him were ultimately dismissed.

Klompton's assessment of his career sums it up nicely.

[SenorPipino]

Yes, Ali was a major player in trying to get Carter freed.

Carter was a major trendy cause back then but I wonder how many celebrities knew anything about his background and propensity for violence.

Hell, when he was originally freed from prison pending retrial, Carter promptly went out and knocked a woman cold.

I looked up Dylan's last performance of Hurricane. Jan. 25, 1976. A day after Foreman vs Lyle. I didn't have to look up the date of Foreman-Lyle. :)

They probably didn't know. Ali and Frazier were busy training and Dylan was busy shuffling his songs and bands and getting laid.

Well you know that Dylan became familiar with Carter by reading his autobiography The 16th Round.

In that book, Carter didn't pull any punches about being an anti-social, thuggish miscreant his entire life.

So Dylan must have known that Carter was certainly light years from being a saint, and very capable of committing a triple homicide.

At least Simpson had a positive public images before he decided to practically sever his ex-wife's head, so it was reasonable for many to believe that he was incapable of 2 brutal murders.

Carter being arrested for 3 killings, probably surprised very few who knew of him.

[APerno]

Passaic County, New Jersey re-tried Carter a second time (in front of a not all white jury) and he was convicted again. -- Carter was 0-2 in murder trials.

He got his shot at the title and he froze, couldn't let his hands go; so of course the decision must have been a fix, not.

He really only had one great moment, blowing out Griffith in one. That got him his shot and he blew it.

Back in 1972 I had the weird experience of finding myself sitting in the Lafayette Club House bar (Lafayette Bar and Grill; they had changed the name a little) where the murders took place. I didn't realize where I was until a couple of guys started to argue as to where the 'women was trying to hide.' (Hazel Tanis had crawled away and hid behind the bar; she would die from her wounds.) The logic of her story didn't work and eventually everyone in the small bar had an opinion. The issue was finally resolved when someone pulled up the carpet and we all realized they had moved the bar during renovation (i.e. they painted over the blood) then her story made sense. It was a weird experience.

It wasn't a restaurant in the usual sense; it had small bar downstairs from a large dance hall area that was used mainly for entertainment and parties. The bar area was so small that no one was getting out of there un-shot.

Of course all of this is based on what these guys were arguing about, I was never really sure if they actually knew anything.

P.S. the African-American community of Paterson, New Jersey hated having Carter around and most were pleased he was incarcerated; one guy (under different circumstances) told me that Carter had been raining terror down on the city for two years (ever since his career went south), getting drunk every weekend and then picking fights (for no reason) with patrons in various bars. The common banter at church, come Sunday mornings was:, "Who did Carter attack and beat-up last night?" The people of Paterson has had enough of the guy.

[APerno]

P.S.S. I should add that the guy who told me the Carter 'raining terror down on the city' story, also played high school basketball with Artis. He said Artis had to keep a loaded gun (in his gym bag) on the bench, he was ganged-up and was constantly afraid he would be attacked while playing basketball.

This was a 17 year old kid (Artis), but then again it was Paterson New Jersey in the sixties.

[klompton]

In reality the Griffith foght didnt get Carter a title shot. What got Carter a title shot was that Giardello (who I love) who was aging, wanted an easy fight for a title defense. He definately didnt want to be chasing #1 contender Joey Archer around on 34 year old legs. He wanted to fight a guy who would come to him, a guy he didnt have to look for, and it didnt hurt that Carter had only been ten rounds six times. Giardello had been 10 rounds or more more than ten times as often as Carter.

[Abradolf Lincler]

I agree with the guilty verdict. He was already on the slide when his career came to a skid, so he wouldn't have done much else, I don't think. I disagree that he was average, though. I thought he was a very good fighter in his prime. His performances against Benton, Giardello, and Tiger showed that, even if he lost 2 of the 3. That's to say nothing of his blow-outs of Griffith and Fernandez. Obviously a huge puncher, but he was a solid stand-up boxer as well. Not special in that regard, but good. In conjunction with his power it made him a formidable contender for a time.

[klompton]

He got outboxed by a past his prime Giardello, got beat like a drum by Tiger, and supposedly the Benton fight fight was fixed with Benton agreeing to not go all out on Carter (same with Carter-Mims). Fernandez had lost three of his last four fights. The Griffith fight was his one big showcase (which came against a guy moving up in weight) and Ive always believed it was a one in a million win. I dont think Carter could have repeated that win. If they fought 10 times Carter would lose 9.

[Caractacus]

I dunno, but I just only watched the 1999 movie THE HURRICANE starring Denzel Washington for the first time over the weekend,
and watching it, it looked like the director (Norman Jewison) took a lot of liberties with the facts that I had previously heard.
For one thing, there were 3 men in the car at 2:40 in the morning (not 2)when the police pulled it over.
and the Hurricane was in the back seat and not riding "shotgun" as seen in the movie.
also those nightclubs looked way too 'ritzy" in the movie.
I had always thought that the Layfette Bar would have been some type of 'dive" for some reason.
also the Hurricane can be seen in the one night club that early morning in really fancy and expensive clothes,
but he drove a sh*t car and looked to live in a small apartment.

[Caractacus]

-2019-

[Caractacus]

Anyone here read the book THE 16TH ROUND ?
It was originally o published in 1974,
and re-printed in paperback in 1991, when the film was released.
I just now got around to reading it last week.
It differed from the movie in a lot of ways IMOP.
I just could not imagine Denzil Washington
acting some of that written in the book on screen, which I read about in the book.
Because he seemed so calm generally speaking acting in it.