Why modern boxers aren't necessarily better

[squiggy]

Opinion noted.

[jezzamundo]

Nope athletes in every sport get better with each generation.

People just don't want to admit it with boxing because it means they'll have to take their rose tinted glasses off.

Did you watch the TED talk? It explains why world records keep tumbling and 90% is not down to any kind of athletic superiority. Evolution simply doesn't work that fast

[BitPlayer]

Worth noting that as well as being on a worse surface, Jesse Owens was going to university, competing in long jump, and working part time jobs while also sprinting. The olympic sports saw a very large increase in professionalism, that's not been seen in boxing.

[BitPlayer]

My 17-year old son who didn't even make a high school state cut has a 100 backstroke result better than 1952 Olympic winner and winners of all previous Olympics. This has nothing to do with technology but everything to do with better technique and better coaching.

No it has a ton to do with changes in the pools etc. that do things like keeping the water in the pool more stable, and reducing drag,. It's mentioned in the talk

[jamamb]

do they mention dick button winning an olympic gold with a single axle

[lazboy]

I’ve been watching a fair bit of Hagler recently. He had power, speed and volume that would put a lot of fighters around the weight today to shame. Why? Was he the exception?

Not only did he have those physical attributes but he was also more skilled overall - if your list the skill set which I will:

Distance, ring cutting, pressure, outside inside repitoire, dirty boxing, headmovement, chin, mentality. A legend. He would be more than competitive in today’s division(s). If people argue about the weight cutting I’d be confident he would decimate from welterweight to super middle - if he could make welterweight which is arguable.

[Enlightened-One]

I’ve been watching a fair bit of Hagler recently. He had power, speed and volume that would put a lot of fighters around the weight today to shame. Why? Was he the exception?

Not only did he have those physical attributes but he was also more skilled overall - if your list the skill set which I will:

Distance, ring cutting, pressure, outside inside repitoire, dirty boxing, headmovement, chin, mentality. A legend. He would be more than competitive in today’s division(s). If people argue about the weight cutting I’d be confident he would decimate from welterweight to super middle - if he could make welterweight which is arguable.

I agree with the vast majority of your sentiments, but in terms of Hagler’s ability to make the stipulated 147lbs weight limit, I reckon he’d do it with ease.

Let’s not forget that when the Marvellous one competed, the official weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight… and there’s one thing for certain, Hagler made the 160lbs middleweight limit with consummate ease, as per his official weights against the likes of:

• Ray Leonard (158½lbs)
• Roberto Duran (157½lbs)
• Tony Sibson (158¼lbs)
• Fulgencio Obelmejias (158½lbs)
• Caveman Lee (158lbs)
• Mustafa Hamsho (157lbs)

And when you consider that many modern day world-rated welterweights rehydrate to 165lbs or more by the time they enter the ring, due to having more than 24 hours to rehydrate between the official weigh-in and the fight, it would be silly to suggest that a fighter as “small” as Hagler couldn’t have temporarily dropped roughly 10lbs or so to make 147lbs.

Put it this way, a ripped to shreds super lightweight like Terence Crawford rehydrated to 157lbs when he fought Viktor Postol at 140lbs, which is the same “official” weight that Hagler defended his middleweight crown against Roberto Duran and Mustafa Hamsho.

[lazboy]

I’ve been watching a fair bit of Hagler recently. He had power, speed and volume that would put a lot of fighters around the weight today to shame. Why? Was he the exception?

Not only did he have those physical attributes but he was also more skilled overall - if your list the skill set which I will:

Distance, ring cutting, pressure, outside inside repitoire, dirty boxing, headmovement, chin, mentality. A legend. He would be more than competitive in today’s division(s). If people argue about the weight cutting I’d be confident he would decimate from welterweight to super middle - if he could make welterweight which is arguable.

I agree with the vast majority of your sentiments, but in terms of Hagler’s ability to make the stipulated 147lbs weight limit, I reckon he’d do it with ease.

Let’s not forget that when the Marvellous one competed, the official weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight… and there’s one thing for certain, Hagler made the 160lbs middleweight limit with consummate ease, as per his official weights against the likes of:

• Ray Leonard (158½lbs)
• Roberto Duran (157½lbs)
• Tony Sibson (158¼lbs)
• Fulgencio Obelmejias (158½lbs)
• Caveman Lee (158lbs)
• Mustafa Hamsho (157lbs)

And when you consider that many modern day world-rated welterweights rehydrate to 165lbs or more by the time they enter the ring, due to having more than 24 hours to rehydrate between the official weigh-in and the fight, it would be silly to suggest that a fighter as “small” as Hagler couldn’t have temporarily dropped roughly 10lbs or so to make 147lbs.

Put it this way, a ripped to shreds super lightweight like Terence Crawford rehydrated to 157lbs when he fought Viktor Postol at 140lbs, which is the same “official” weight that Hagler defended his middleweight crown against Roberto Duran and Mustafa Hamsho.

Have to agree with you on principle...especially since you’ve done the math. So Hagler could of potentially made welterweight. Today’s boxers are bigger (according to weight class) but the question remains - are they better. If we are comparing Hagler to the welterweights of today I’d still say confidently he was as powerful. Speed would be hard to gauge...but using the eye test...having watched Hagler and the current scene concurrently I’d say he was. Volume I’d say yes also although I haven’t looked at any stats.

[mullenman]

Boxers are more professional now so they are better. Fitter, stronger etc.. it’s all science and knowledge. Crawford, floyd, loca, at the greatest ever. If Ali tried rope a dope against AJ the people in the first row would be knocked out too...

[ldlamb]

Dumb

[ClivePatrickLyons]

As long as todays fighters like Canelo don't hit the juice before the fight its two fist's v two fist's

[ClivePatrickLyons]

Boxers are more professional now so they are better. Fitter, stronger etc.. it’s all science and knowledge. Crawford, floyd, loca, at the greatest ever. If Ali tried rope a dope against AJ the people in the first row would be knocked out too...

Ali would have one thing to say to AJ ''IF AJ EVER DREAMS HE BEAT ME HE BETTER WAKE UP AND APOLIGISE''

[jezzamundo]

Let's not forget that a 41yo Wlad had clearly faster feet than Joshua. I think he'd have a hard time catching up with a young, fleet-footed Ali.

[jamamb]

to me the biggest difference is size. guys now fight much heavier for a weight division then they used to with same day weighins. technique wise i think things sort of reached modern level many decades ago (joe louis had exquisite punch technique), although watching really old footage from around the 20s the technice is primative

like, bob fitzimmons gets billed as a mw, lhw, and hw world champ, but actually look deeper. he fought a guy who weighed 164 the day of for the lhw title and a guy weighing like 180 day of for hw

that would be like erislandy lara beating george groves for the hw title

[boxing_rocks]

My 17-year old son who didn't even make a high school state cut has a 100 backstroke result better than 1952 Olympic winner and winners of all previous Olympics. This has nothing to do with technology but everything to do with better technique and better coaching.

No it has a ton to do with changes in the pools etc. that do things like keeping the water in the pool more stable, and reducing drag,. It's mentioned in the talk

Differences in pools only mean fractions of a second for a 100-meter distance.

[gilgamesh]

The best fighting the best, and beating the best is what proves a fighters greatness. The best often don't fight the best anymore or they don't fight the best until years after the time when the fight would've been the most meaningful.

That's why modern boxers aren't necessarily better.

[Wales]

Due to improved coaching methods, increased participation and the ability to dedicate ourselves to a chosen discipline weve broken records in every measurable sport . We run faster , jump higher and further, throw further , cover greater distances quicker .

Does boxing buck that trend?

[Ketchel]

A 50 year old Bernard Hopkins competing at world level against the cream of the young bucks showed that boxing skill has declined at the top level. George Foreman and Larry Holmes competing against Evander Holyfield showed that the 70s heavyweights would have been too much for the 90s guys. I don't see skill levels rising. Someone on here mentioned fighters fighting the best not happening anymore. There does not appear to be much pride in wanting to be the best today and too many excuses not to aspire to do so. Look at Ali's comeback where he came back at the top level. Vitali Klitschko coming back at the top level. Guys with mental fortitude. Then look at Tyson Fury's comeback. Shameful!

[jezzamundo]

Due to improved coaching methods, increased participation and the ability to dedicate ourselves to a chosen discipline weve broken records in every measurable sport . We run faster , jump higher and further, throw further , cover greater distances quicker .

Does boxing buck that trend?

Yes!

[boxing_rocks]

A 50 year old Bernard Hopkins competing at world level against the cream of the young bucks showed that boxing skill has declined at the top level. George Foreman and Larry Holmes competing against Evander Holyfield showed that the 70s heavyweights would have been too much for the 90s guys. I don't see skill levels rising. Someone on here mentioned fighters fighting the best not happening anymore. There does not appear to be much pride in wanting to be the best today and too many excuses not to aspire to do so. Look at Ali's comeback where he came back at the top level. Vitali Klitschko coming back at the top level. Guys with mental fortitude. Then look at Tyson Fury's comeback. Shameful!

49-year old Hopkins wasn't competitive against Kovalev. 46-47 year old Hopkins was beaten twice by Dawson who appeared to not be an elite fighter. Between those fights, Hopkins fought mediocre opposition.

Holyfield was a great cruiserweght fighting real heavyweights.

There are always exceptions, and progress in sports platoes with time, so some ATG 70s boxers would in fact be competitive now. However, I strongly doubt that any boxers from 50s and earlier could survive now.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- You strongly prove the case that DUMB is evolving much quicker than modern evolution can account for.

I shudder to think what cruiser Rocky would do to Mr Field, much less if he got on Field's vitamins.

You on DUMB vitamins...priceless!

[Enlightened-One]

I’ve been watching a fair bit of Hagler recently. He had power, speed and volume that would put a lot of fighters around the weight today to shame. Why? Was he the exception?

Not only did he have those physical attributes but he was also more skilled overall - if your list the skill set which I will:

Distance, ring cutting, pressure, outside inside repitoire, dirty boxing, headmovement, chin, mentality. A legend. He would be more than competitive in today’s division(s). If people argue about the weight cutting I’d be confident he would decimate from welterweight to super middle - if he could make welterweight which is arguable.

I agree with the vast majority of your sentiments, but in terms of Hagler’s ability to make the stipulated 147lbs weight limit, I reckon he’d do it with ease.

Let’s not forget that when the Marvellous one competed, the official weigh-ins took place on the day of the fight… and there’s one thing for certain, Hagler made the 160lbs middleweight limit with consummate ease, as per his official weights against the likes of:

• Ray Leonard (158½lbs)
• Roberto Duran (157½lbs)
• Tony Sibson (158¼lbs)
• Fulgencio Obelmejias (158½lbs)
• Caveman Lee (158lbs)
• Mustafa Hamsho (157lbs)

And when you consider that many modern day world-rated welterweights rehydrate to 165lbs or more by the time they enter the ring, due to having more than 24 hours to rehydrate between the official weigh-in and the fight, it would be silly to suggest that a fighter as “small” as Hagler couldn’t have temporarily dropped roughly 10lbs or so to make 147lbs.

Put it this way, a ripped to shreds super lightweight like Terence Crawford rehydrated to 157lbs when he fought Viktor Postol at 140lbs, which is the same “official” weight that Hagler defended his middleweight crown against Roberto Duran and Mustafa Hamsho.

Have to agree with you on principle...especially since you’ve done the math. So Hagler could of potentially made welterweight. Today’s boxers are bigger (according to weight class) but the question remains - are they better. If we are comparing Hagler to the welterweights of today I’d still say confidently he was as powerful. Speed would be hard to gauge...but using the eye test...having watched Hagler and the current scene concurrently I’d say he was. Volume I’d say yes also although I haven’t looked at any stats.

Hagler would likely do very well against today’s welterweights, but as incredible as this might sound, he may be facing 147lb-ers that enter the ring “bigger” than some of the guys he fought during his middleweight title reign heyday of the eighties.

I think the Marvellous one would likely struggle against today’s 154lb-ers and 160lb-ers, because the men he’d be facing would be much larger than himself.

I’m not suggesting that Hagler couldn’t gain some measure of success if he competed today, because he probably could, instead I’m merely suggesting that he might be too “small” and that his physical size disadvantage would likely result in opponents that are clearly less talented than himself being incredibly challenging to overcome.

People forget how significant the impact that the day of the fight weigh-in’s had on the size of the fighters of yesteryear.