Is the Heavyweight div. the hardest to judge?

[Sorono]

in the boxing history section they think willard and carnera are better then the klits, i read some past threads on it

Historians love their nistalgia glasses. Everything from the past is better than today

[Tuan_Jim]

in the boxing history section they think willard and carnera are better then the klits, i read some past threads on it

Well, neither guy gassed in a punchup, like Klit did after a mere 11 rds versus Puritty, or Vit in 6 rounds versus Lewis. God only knows how the Klits would look in 15, 20, 25 rounders (or a 45 rounder in Cuban heat, like when Willard beat Johnson).

[Sorono]

Theres always gonna be big guys and small guys in every division, the problem with the heavies is there is no upper limit and people are generally getting taller over time, but that's just a cross they have to bear for the luxury of not having to make weight, even so a small heavy can still beat a big one if they can be arsed putting in the effort.

It is a very unfair division.

Imagine eubank jr fighting and winning against crawford. Wouldnt he get 0 respect from the boxing community cause everybody would say "you beat a guy much smaller, much lighter than you"

The most non technical boxer in the Heavyweight division is the second best heavyweight in the world right now. Just because he is tall has long reach and frekish punching power. Would wilder be 6'2, he would be just another povetkin.

[Sorono]

in the boxing history section they think willard and carnera are better then the klits, i read some past threads on it

Well, neither guy gassed in a punchup, like Klit did after a mere 11 rds versus Puritty, or Vit in 6 rounds versus Lewis. God only knows how the Klits would look in 15, 20, 25 rounders (or a 45 rounder in Cuban heat, like when Willard beat Johnson).

No need for 15 rds. Willard and carnera would go down inside 2. Carnera was a circus freak show, had problems throwing a good punch. Willard was just terrible. Totally unathletic.

Did you even watch the lewis Klitschko fight? You sound like you didn't, otherwise why writing lies? Vitaly didn't gass against lewis. He was in tremendous shape, had plenty of energy left and wanted to continue the fight, but the ref stopped the fight, because he had the opinion that vitalys face was to damaged

[littlepug]

Theres always gonna be big guys and small guys in every division, the problem with the heavies is there is no upper limit and people are generally getting taller over time, but that's just a cross they have to bear for the luxury of not having to make weight, even so a small heavy can still beat a big one if they can be arsed putting in the effort.

It is a very unfair division.

Imagine eubank jr fighting and winning against crawford. Wouldnt he get 0 respect from the boxing community cause everybody would say "you beat a guy much smaller, much lighter than you"

The most non technical boxer in the Heavyweight division is the second best heavyweight in the world right now. Just because he is tall has long reach and frekish punching power. Would wilder be 6'2, he would be just another povetkin.

Most of the small heavies are fat cruisers and some are just small for the weight, Baby Jake Matlala was small for his weight, Jamie mcdonnell was tall for his, cant accomadate everyone, oh and bear in mind Wilder is practically a cruiser himself so is giving up weight in nearly every fight.

[Sorono]

Theres always gonna be big guys and small guys in every division, the problem with the heavies is there is no upper limit and people are generally getting taller over time, but that's just a cross they have to bear for the luxury of not having to make weight, even so a small heavy can still beat a big one if they can be arsed putting in the effort.

It is a very unfair division.

Imagine eubank jr fighting and winning against crawford. Wouldnt he get 0 respect from the boxing community cause everybody would say "you beat a guy much smaller, much lighter than you"

The most non technical boxer in the Heavyweight division is the second best heavyweight in the world right now. Just because he is tall has long reach and frekish punching power. Would wilder be 6'2, he would be just another povetkin.

Most of the small heavies are fat cruisers and some are just small for the weight, Baby Jake Matlala was small for his weight, Jamie mcdonnell was tall for his, cant accomadate everyone, oh and bear in mind Wilder is practically a cruiser himself so is giving up weight in nearly every fight.

At the beginning of his career he was close being a cruiser. Now he is far away from being a cruiser

[littlepug]

It is a very unfair division.

Imagine eubank jr fighting and winning against crawford. Wouldnt he get 0 respect from the boxing community cause everybody would say "you beat a guy much smaller, much lighter than you"

The most non technical boxer in the Heavyweight division is the second best heavyweight in the world right now. Just because he is tall has long reach and frekish punching power. Would wilder be 6'2, he would be just another povetkin.

Most of the small heavies are fat cruisers and some are just small for the weight, Baby Jake Matlala was small for his weight, Jamie mcdonnell was tall for his, cant accomadate everyone, oh and bear in mind Wilder is practically a cruiser himself so is giving up weight in nearly every fight.

At the beginning of his career he was close being a cruiser. Now he is far away from being a cruiser

Fair enough, he still one of the lighter heavies, against Ortiz im sure he was only just above 15 stone (210 pounds)

[Enlightened-One]

It is a very unfair division.

Imagine eubank jr fighting and winning against crawford. Wouldnt he get 0 respect from the boxing community cause everybody would say "you beat a guy much smaller, much lighter than you"

The most non technical boxer in the Heavyweight division is the second best heavyweight in the world right now. Just because he is tall has long reach and frekish punching power. Would wilder be 6'2, he would be just another povetkin.

Most of the small heavies are fat cruisers and some are just small for the weight, Baby Jake Matlala was small for his weight, Jamie mcdonnell was tall for his, cant accomadate everyone, oh and bear in mind Wilder is practically a cruiser himself so is giving up weight in nearly every fight.

At the beginning of his career he was close being a cruiser. Now he is far away from being a cruiser

Without having to dehydrate for the official weigh-in, Deontay Wilder was only 214¾lbs against Luis Ortiz. The WBC champion has also very recently proposed the notion of making a temporary jump to cruiserweight after he’s fought Anthony Joshua.

[Tuan_Jim]

in the boxing history section they think willard and carnera are better then the klits, i read some past threads on it

Well, neither guy gassed in a punchup, like Klit did after a mere 11 rds versus Puritty, or Vit in 6 rounds versus Lewis. God only knows how the Klits would look in 15, 20, 25 rounders (or a 45 rounder in Cuban heat, like when Willard beat Johnson).

No need for 15 rds. Willard and carnera would go down inside 2. Carnera was a circus freak show, had problems throwing a good punch. Willard was just terrible. Totally unathletic.

Did you even watch the lewis Klitschko fight? You sound like you didn't, otherwise why writing lies? Vitaly didn't gass against lewis. He was in tremendous shape, had plenty of energy left and wanted to continue the fight, but the ref stopped the fight, because he had the opinion that vitalys face was to damaged

Yes I watched it, it's the fight where Jim Lampley correctly observes that Vitali's crude standup style looks like something out of the turn of the century.

Carnera didn't get "KOd in 2" even by grade A punchers like Louis and Baer. Willard "totally unathletic"--and yet he boxed 26 rounds? Given that this is evidently a thread where everything we say is the opposite of observable fact, let me just say how highly intelligent and informed you are.

Meanwhile, let's have a look at Vitali Klitschko in "tremendous shape" with "plenty of energy left"--skip to 29:40. Wow, that's some real Ali/Frazier body language there from big Klit.

[DrDuke]

Of course, size matters. Some can argue, that skills matter first. Well, yeah, but we talk about the fights of professional athletes, where both sides possess skills. And the bigger one can use his advantage of the size, so the smaller guys should demonstrate even more skills. So, the majority will be sure, that Joshua beats Marciano, who was small even for his times, but probably Joshua won't be able to use his size against Tyson, who was too special. In the times of Willard and Carnera the overall skillset level of boxing was lower, so those giants were unable to use properly their size advantages in the fights against Dempsey or Louis, who had remarkable skills for their times. But if we match Louis or Dempsey against Lennox Lewis, absolutely different stuff can be imagined.

[Sorono]

Well, neither guy gassed in a punchup, like Klit did after a mere 11 rds versus Puritty, or Vit in 6 rounds versus Lewis. God only knows how the Klits would look in 15, 20, 25 rounders (or a 45 rounder in Cuban heat, like when Willard beat Johnson).

No need for 15 rds. Willard and carnera would go down inside 2. Carnera was a circus freak show, had problems throwing a good punch. Willard was just terrible. Totally unathletic.

Did you even watch the lewis Klitschko fight? You sound like you didn't, otherwise why writing lies? Vitaly didn't gass against lewis. He was in tremendous shape, had plenty of energy left and wanted to continue the fight, but the ref stopped the fight, because he had the opinion that vitalys face was to damaged

Yes I watched it, it's the fight where Jim Lampley correctly observes that Vitali's crude standup style looks like something out of the turn of the century.

Carnera didn't get "KOd in 2" even by grade A punchers like Louis and Baer. Willard "totally unathletic"--and yet he boxed 26 rounds? Given that this is evidently a thread where everything we say is the opposite of observable fact, let me just say how highly intelligent and informed you are.

Meanwhile, let's have a look at Vitali Klitschko in "tremendous shape" with "plenty of energy left"--skip to 29:40. Wow, that's some real Ali/Frazier body language there from big Klit.

You made it worse for yourself with the video. Skip to 31 you see vitaly still full of energy. Ready to continue. If somebody looked tired and was happy that is was over than it was lewis

[littlepug]

No need for 15 rds. Willard and carnera would go down inside 2. Carnera was a circus freak show, had problems throwing a good punch. Willard was just terrible. Totally unathletic.

Did you even watch the lewis Klitschko fight? You sound like you didn't, otherwise why writing lies? Vitaly didn't gass against lewis. He was in tremendous shape, had plenty of energy left and wanted to continue the fight, but the ref stopped the fight, because he had the opinion that vitalys face was to damaged

Yes I watched it, it's the fight where Jim Lampley correctly observes that Vitali's crude standup style looks like something out of the turn of the century.

Carnera didn't get "KOd in 2" even by grade A punchers like Louis and Baer. Willard "totally unathletic"--and yet he boxed 26 rounds? Given that this is evidently a thread where everything we say is the opposite of observable fact, let me just say how highly intelligent and informed you are.

Meanwhile, let's have a look at Vitali Klitschko in "tremendous shape" with "plenty of energy left"--skip to 29:40. Wow, that's some real Ali/Frazier body language there from big Klit.

You made it worse for yourself with the video. Skip to 31 you see vitaly still full of energy. Ready to continue. If somebody looked tired and was happy that is was over than it was lewis

Just for show that mate, whats the point of going off like that when the fight has already been stopped and half your face is hanging off, did he think they were going to turn round and go "oh you want to carry on Vitali ? we will restart the fight for you then" !

[Tuan_Jim]

Yes I watched it, it's the fight where Jim Lampley correctly observes that Vitali's crude standup style looks like something out of the turn of the century.

Carnera didn't get "KOd in 2" even by grade A punchers like Louis and Baer. Willard "totally unathletic"--and yet he boxed 26 rounds? Given that this is evidently a thread where everything we say is the opposite of observable fact, let me just say how highly intelligent and informed you are.

Meanwhile, let's have a look at Vitali Klitschko in "tremendous shape" with "plenty of energy left"--skip to 29:40. Wow, that's some real Ali/Frazier body language there from big Klit.

You made it worse for yourself with the video. Skip to 31 you see vitaly still full of energy. Ready to continue. If somebody looked tired and was happy that is was over than it was lewis

Just for show that mate, whats the point of going off like that when the fight has already been stopped and half your face is hanging off, did he think they were going to turn round and go "oh you want to carry on Vitali ? we will restart the fight for you then" !

Yep, anyone who has watched boxing for any reasonable length of time is familiar with the tedious theatrics of the finished boxer suddenly 'wanting to fight' only after the ref has waved him off and there is absolutely no possibility of getting punched anymore.

Of course, Sorono made the frankly staggering remark "[Luis] Ortiz is one of the best techniqule hw ever" (sic) so it's safe to assume he's very new to the sport and has yet to get to grips with the rudiments.

[gilgamesh]

To me it feels very hard to acuratly judge the hw div in terms who the best are. Mainly because heavyweight became so big and tall over the decades.

Marciano, louis or dempsey would have no chance nowadays. They build like big lh or cw. Ali, foreman and holyfield are tall and strong, but not comparable to Joshua & klitschkos. I know height and weight is not everything, but it matters when your opponent has a tremendous reach height advantage and has more power behind his punches because he is way bigger. Holyfield and lewis were on the same level in terms of technique, main reason why lewis won was that long jab, simply the physical inferiority.

Ortiz is one of the best techniqule hw ever. Seasoned, good guard and he lost against a street fighter with poor technique, slugish. All because wilder was swinging with these long arms.

A great fighter would always have a chance. The guy that Dempsey beat for the title was every bit as big as Joshua and The Klitschko's.

Bad comparison. The guy dempsey beat was tall big and totaly unathletic, wasnt build like a boxer should be. Its like saying primo carnera is as good as v. Klitschko because he had similar weight height when reality was that he was a slow body builder freak show not made for boxing.

I'm aware The Klitschko's are more talented than Willard or Carnera, but size ain't what made 'em tough to beat. Skills are.

[man]

no.

[Sorono]

Yes I watched it, it's the fight where Jim Lampley correctly observes that Vitali's crude standup style looks like something out of the turn of the century.

Carnera didn't get "KOd in 2" even by grade A punchers like Louis and Baer. Willard "totally unathletic"--and yet he boxed 26 rounds? Given that this is evidently a thread where everything we say is the opposite of observable fact, let me just say how highly intelligent and informed you are.

Meanwhile, let's have a look at Vitali Klitschko in "tremendous shape" with "plenty of energy left"--skip to 29:40. Wow, that's some real Ali/Frazier body language there from big Klit.

You made it worse for yourself with the video. Skip to 31 you see vitaly still full of energy. Ready to continue. If somebody looked tired and was happy that is was over than it was lewis

Just for show that mate, whats the point of going off like that when the fight has already been stopped and half your face is hanging off, did he think they were going to turn round and go "oh you want to carry on Vitali ? we will restart the fight for you then" !

you will never understand a champions mentality. Maybe lack of empathy or you not be able to think like a champ.

Imagine you worked 20 years for something and than they take it away from you, while you believe you are still ready to continue. Vitaly was winning on points and he wanted to continue. Of course he got mad for them too stop the fight when felt he could continue

[Sorono]

You made it worse for yourself with the video. Skip to 31 you see vitaly still full of energy. Ready to continue. If somebody looked tired and was happy that is was over than it was lewis

Just for show that mate, whats the point of going off like that when the fight has already been stopped and half your face is hanging off, did he think they were going to turn round and go "oh you want to carry on Vitali ? we will restart the fight for you then" !

Yep, anyone who has watched boxing for any reasonable length of time is familiar with the tedious theatrics of the finished boxer suddenly 'wanting to fight' only after the ref has waved him off and there is absolutely no possibility of getting punched anymore.

Of course, Sorono made the frankly staggering remark "[Luis] Ortiz is one of the best techniqule hw ever" (sic) so it's safe to assume he's very new to the sport and has yet to get to grips with the rudiments.

Vitaly wasnt finished at all. Cuts and blood mean less than you think. Abraham lost an ocean full of blood and continued and won with a broken jaw. Vitaly was still in the fight, absorbed lewis best punches And was read y to continue. Lewis was tired and happy when the ref ended it.

Luis ortiz is one of the best hw technician ever. Great jab, great combination punching. Good defence. Underrated footwork for a guy his size. And he does all this why not being dirty like Holyfield and lewis, head butting, holding, rubbing the gloves into cuts etc.. Top 5 hw ever

[gilgamesh]

You definitely got a lot to learn about Boxing Sorono.

Whether or not Vitali "Looked like he wanted to continue" or not wasn't the relevant point in them stopping the fight. The relevant point was his eye was gashed open severely, and the damage was severe enough that by letting him continue they were risking him losing the sight in his eye.

Taking the chance to win a fight is worth a lot, but it's not worth your vision.

I'm sure Vitali has gotten over that sh*t by now. Clearly some of his fans haven't.

[Sorono]

You definitely got a lot to learn about Boxing Sorono.

Whether or not Vitali "Looked like he wanted to continue" or not wasn't the relevant point in them stopping the fight. The relevant point was his eye was gashed open severely, and the damage was severe enough that by letting him continue they were risking him losing the sight in his eye.

Taking the chance to win a fight is worth a lot, but it's not worth your vision.

I'm sure Vitali has gotten over that sh*t by now. Clearly some of his fans haven't.

The cuts. What was damaged. The eye wasnt damaged. He had cuts. It looked worse than it really was. Blood, a cut at the upper eye lit. The rest from the cuts didn't matter since they were far away from the actual eye.

Vitaly was able to see threw both eyes and was winning on points. You have been wrong many times before gilga. This time again.

[gilgamesh]

You definitely got a lot to learn about Boxing Sorono.

Whether or not Vitali "Looked like he wanted to continue" or not wasn't the relevant point in them stopping the fight. The relevant point was his eye was gashed open severely, and the damage was severe enough that by letting him continue they were risking him losing the sight in his eye.

Taking the chance to win a fight is worth a lot, but it's not worth your vision.

I'm sure Vitali has gotten over that sh*t by now. Clearly some of his fans haven't.

The cuts. What was damaged. The eye wasnt damaged. He had cuts. It looked worse than it really was. Blood, a cut at the upper eye lit. The rest from the cuts didn't matter since they were far away from the actual eye.

Vitaly was able to see threw both eyes and was winning on points. You have been wrong many times before gilga. This time again.

I have been wrong many times before? This doesn't sound like an opinion that a "new poster" should have. You're now on thin ice as I suspect you're a returning troll.

The cut was about as bad as you'll ever see on Vitali. You could damn near see bone on the cut. Very easy to imagine nerve damage coming if they cut had worsened any, which with 6 rounds to go chances are high that it would've.

I agree Vitali was winning the fight, but your long term health and well being is more important than winning 1 fight.

[Sorono]

You definitely got a lot to learn about Boxing Sorono.

Whether or not Vitali "Looked like he wanted to continue" or not wasn't the relevant point in them stopping the fight. The relevant point was his eye was gashed open severely, and the damage was severe enough that by letting him continue they were risking him losing the sight in his eye.

Taking the chance to win a fight is worth a lot, but it's not worth your vision.

I'm sure Vitali has gotten over that sh*t by now. Clearly some of his fans haven't.

The cuts. What was damaged. The eye wasnt damaged. He had cuts. It looked worse than it really was. Blood, a cut at the upper eye lit. The rest from the cuts didn't matter since they were far away from the actual eye.

Vitaly was able to see threw both eyes and was winning on points. You have been wrong many times before gilga. This time again.

I have been wrong many times before? This doesn't sound like an opinion that a "new poster" should have. You're now on thin ice as I suspect you're a returning troll.

The cut was about as bad as you'll ever see on Vitali. You could damn near see bone on the cut. Very easy to imagine nerve damage coming if they cut had worsened any, which with 6 rounds to go chances are high that it would've.

I agree Vitali was winning the fight, but your long term health and well being is more important than winning 1 fight.

I am no troll. Just posting about boxing and bothering nobody. You sound like a bully.

[gilgamesh]

The cuts. What was damaged. The eye wasnt damaged. He had cuts. It looked worse than it really was. Blood, a cut at the upper eye lit. The rest from the cuts didn't matter since they were far away from the actual eye.

Vitaly was able to see threw both eyes and was winning on points. You have been wrong many times before gilga. This time again.

I have been wrong many times before? This doesn't sound like an opinion that a "new poster" should have. You're now on thin ice as I suspect you're a returning troll.

The cut was about as bad as you'll ever see on Vitali. You could damn near see bone on the cut. Very easy to imagine nerve damage coming if they cut had worsened any, which with 6 rounds to go chances are high that it would've.

I agree Vitali was winning the fight, but your long term health and well being is more important than winning 1 fight.

I am no troll. Just posting about boxing and bothering nobody. You sound like a bully.

I'm no bully, But barely over 30 posts in seems a little soon to be saying stuff like "You've been wrong many times before" to a member that's been around for a long time. A person with only 30 posts shouldn't be familiar enough with any poster to be making those kinda claims.

It's simple logic.

[Like a Boss]

A great fighter would always have a chance. The guy that Dempsey beat for the title was every bit as big as Joshua and The Klitschko's.

True. Willard is one of the few yardsticks we have from back then.

Have you guys actually watched the bout between Jess Willard and Jack Dempsey?

First of all, Willard’s physique is relatively poor in comparison to today’s behemoths and he also lacked athleticism.

And second and more importantly, Willard not only lacked skill, but he didn’t know how to use his size advantage. He adopted a defensively irresponsible fighting style, such as keeping his hands by his hips, whilst allowing his opponents to tee off on him to land their haymakers at will.

Have watched Dempsey-Willard many times. But admittedly not for a few years. Still remember the first time I watched it, and I was only a kid at the time, and being horrified at the sheer brutality Dempsey exerted on the much bigger man.

[gilgamesh]

True. Willard is one of the few yardsticks we have from back then.

Have you guys actually watched the bout between Jess Willard and Jack Dempsey?

First of all, Willard’s physique is relatively poor in comparison to today’s behemoths and he also lacked athleticism.

And second and more importantly, Willard not only lacked skill, but he didn’t know how to use his size advantage. He adopted a defensively irresponsible fighting style, such as keeping his hands by his hips, whilst allowing his opponents to tee off on him to land their haymakers at will.

Have watched Dempsey-Willard many times. But admittedly not for a few years. Still remember the first time I watched it, and I was only a kid at the time, and being horrified at the sheer brutality Dempsey exerted on the much bigger man.

It's still probably the most brutal fight I've seen. Due to the rule changes, and improved safety measures it's simply not possible to see that level of brutality in a Boxing ring anymore. Which is probably a good thing.

[thevamp]

That the fight where he basically kept smashing the guy every time he stood up, seemingly without a 10 count?