Old Wive's Tales~Lennox Lewis vs Larry Holmes

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

[littlepug]

- I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

Stopped reading as soon as you mentioned the IBO, lost all credibility there dude.

[tiny_acres]

- I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

I'd be interested in seeing your top 20 heavyweights. I could never think of 19 that could possibly be ahead of Holmes

[Tuan_Jim]

never held the WBO or IBO

Who actually uses this to criticise Lewis? No one worth speaking to.

News flash: he never fought Joe Bugner for his WBF title either.

[Tuan_Jim]

- I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

Stopped reading as soon as you mentioned the IBO, lost all credibility there dude.

Ditto. BRR writes a lot of essays. No one reads them.

[HomicideHenry]

When Lewis was king the WBO belt was considered something meaningless; in fairness to Lewis, though, Henry Akinwande dropped the WBO belt to fight Lewis and was humiliated. So in a technical sense, Lewis WAS the rightful man to the WBO Championship despite these legalities.

The IBO belt (as well as the IBC) were considered even lower than the WBO title at the time. It was the kind of BS that ONLY meant you were now a top ten-fifteen guy, much like how the NABO/NABF belt once meant you were a top ten-fifteen guy.

So why these arguments are being made is rather ridiculous. It'd be like saying Gene Tunney wasn't the Heavyweight champion of the world because he didn't have the EBU title that George Godfrey had.

Based on that logic there's NEVER truly been a true world's champion because whose actually beaten every single champion from every single country on the planet?

And Holmes at 19 while Lewis is 11?

I'm sorry but I can't imagine the prime Larry Holmes losing to Oliver McCall (hell I thought in his 40s he still beat him) let alone get knocked out by Rahman.

[Matt W]

Lewis did hold the IBO title. Not that anybody cared except Lewis and the OP,

[elmersalsa]

- I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

I'd be interested in seeing your top 20 heavyweights. I could never think of 19 that could possibly be ahead of Holmes

Me, either.

[Syntax Error]

- I'd put these two as two of the most insecure heavyweight champions ever in spite of all their accolades, many of the dubious, unsupported type. Ex: Lewis the last unified champ promulgated by Ring recently, beat every man and every great he faced, too big, strong, and skilled. Holmes done in by the suits to prevent him from breaking Rocky's record, still undefeated, but rusty when facing Tyson, whooped Mercer, ducked by Foreman and of course each thinks they're the best ever, so I'm gonna make them fight.

Refutations: Lewis never defended his unified title like Wlad did umpteen times, never held the WBO or IBO, and forfeited all his titles for step aside monies or days from being stripped, struggled with Mercer and scarcely showed up against past it, hard heart recovered Field and Mavrovic, and geez, the first Rahman fight was like taking a walk in a South African park it was so easy, not even five rounds completed, so conditioning wasn't a factor...Duh! Holmes the lost 5th stooge to the golden era of Ali, Frazier, George, and Ken the same age as George, yet wouldn't face Ali until he was near catatonic, and he never beat a shop worn Ken nor offered the big money rematch, fought a succession of journeymen, babies, and lesser contenders, accused of the serious crime of thumbing by his peers, needed the Low Blow deductions to draw even with Cooney who outboxed him early, was bitch slapped and choked out by Mercer a to ride the ropes that whole fight, couldn't figure out a cracked out McCall, and knocked down and humiliated by a 330lb Butterbean whom he got jealous over the money he was making, and like an idiot got kicked out of the HOF the day before his inauguration and on that day he was allowed back in he spent most of his speech ragging on big George, not a guy I'd want to have a beer with for sure.

We know they'd never be game to face a prime great until the great had gone on past his expiration date, so thus we have a classic Rubber Series 3 match fight set. All we have to do is identify their prime time frame for a good crack, and then their past prime time frame so the prime each gets a crack at the past prime each...simples.

Primes: Gonna take prime Lewis between his McCall and Rahman defeats, a 6 year stretch where he puts together a credible streak often looking impressive when not tenative. Gonna take prime Holmes between his win over Norton and Witherspoon, a approx 5 year, after which it was painfully obvious he didn't have it any more.

Out of prime will be past those dates.

Prime to prime I always rated Lewis higher, the reason being Holmes never faced his WBA champs and then the WBC champ after he forfeited that belt and he has a much poorer title record and against standing champs, 1-5. Larry could skeeter around pretty good with a sharp jab and flash right to make Lewis look a bit oafish, but overall he'd be stinking badly and maybe sinking when Lewis catches him.

Prime Holmes vs post prime Lewis, again, Lewis still had enough in him to outbox Holmes and maybe knock him out. Lewis never suffered too much of a decline.

Prime Lewis vs past prime Holmes would go much like Tyson vs Holmes but probably take twice as long for the KO.

In short: Lewis > Holmes. I would rate Lewis about 11th all time(IBRO rates him 12th) and Holmes 20th(IBRO rates him 6th)

I'd be interested in seeing your top 20 heavyweights. I could never think of 19 that could possibly be ahead of Holmes

BRR has some beef with Larry Holmes.

I don't know whether Larry owes him money or used to beat him up at school or something, but he's never had good word to say about Holmes.

I too cannot fathom how he finds 19 other HWs better than Holmes, but he'd probably tell me to 'Study Up' as per usual for anybody who just happens to have a different opinion on a hypothetical issue where you cannot actually prove who is right.

[SteveO]

Lewis did hold the IBO title. Not that anybody cared except Lewis and the OP,

Yes, Lewis was IBO champion 1999-2004.
Didn't he also win the IBC title when he beat Tommy Morrison?
Lennox sure held a lot of belts during his career.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- And how did I know this faint hearted bunch couldn't man up to the match up I proposed?

Easy, you lot tend to reflect your faint hearted, insecure fighters not wanting to fight the best. I already posted my top 10 heavy list in the well perused poll of top 10 divisional greats not so long ago, and including Lewis that's an easy 11 I rank over Lar. I'll let you genii figure the other 8.

Yes, I do stand corrected on the IBO belt, but back to the point I was making, Lewis never defended his unified belts and Wlad did. He could've held the WBC when Vitali retired had they just sparred an exhibition for over $100 mil for the passing of the torch, but they ain't frauds like too many of your lot support in boxing.

Let's not forget Vitali traveled to America to drum up and Field or Tyson fight to no avail. Both held the WBO titles and top rated on boxrec and Ring and fought tricky southpaw Chris Byrd who doesn't have a career that far removed from Lewis who gave up his IBF to avoid Byrd. Vitali had to sue Lewis 3x for a bout, and Lewis finally responded by giving him a title shot with 2 weeks notice after Lewis had been in prolonged training for 3 months. He needed an all time cut he exacerbated by rubbing his braids into Vitali's eyes in the clinches before grabbing his noggin to pull down for a half dozen uppercuts to further enhance the stoppage, some of the most blatant dirty tricks witnessed in a title fight.

Look, I don't think much of either as sentient human beings, but I do rate Lewis fairly high, so I'm not the type to let personal feelings influence my rating of a fighter. All I know is the bottom line with Holmes, a 1-5 record against standing champs holding a title, and he didn't beat that 1, Norton. He ran from the lucrative rematch after making $300 K for that fight he was such an unknown nothing. He said he'd rematch Norton or fight Young, but he never did. Shameless!

Facts are as the Ks rose up the ranks, the Brits and Yanks fled for the duration, something never seen before in the previous manly eras of boxing!

[Counter-puncher]

The gap between your perception of your own wit and eloquence, and your actual wit and eloquence, is absolutely excruciating to behold.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- So say the less than manly

[Counter-puncher]

yes what an excellent point, its so easy to ascertain manliness from what people write on the internet

and, better yet, which really makes your point a doozy, someone making a comment on your wit/eloquence/lack thereof, quite clearly exposes their own manliness/lack thereof in so doing

its all so clear to me now.,

[Syntax Error]

- And how did I know this faint hearted bunch couldn't man up to the match up I proposed?

Easy, you lot tend to reflect your faint hearted, insecure fighters not wanting to fight the best. I already posted my top 10 heavy list in the well perused poll of top 10 divisional greats not so long ago, and including Lewis that's an easy 11 I rank over Lar. I'll let you genii figure the other 8.

Yes, I do stand corrected on the IBO belt, but back to the point I was making, Lewis never defended his unified belts and Wlad did. He could've held the WBC when Vitali retired had they just sparred an exhibition for over $100 mil for the passing of the torch, but they ain't frauds like too many of your lot support in boxing.

Let's not forget Vitali traveled to America to drum up and Field or Tyson fight to no avail. Both held the WBO titles and top rated on boxrec and Ring and fought tricky southpaw Chris Byrd who doesn't have a career that far removed from Lewis who gave up his IBF to avoid Byrd. Vitali had to sue Lewis 3x for a bout, and Lewis finally responded by giving him a title shot with 2 weeks notice after Lewis had been in prolonged training for 3 months. He needed an all time cut he exacerbated by rubbing his braids into Vitali's eyes in the clinches before grabbing his noggin to pull down for a half dozen uppercuts to further enhance the stoppage, some of the most blatant dirty tricks witnessed in a title fight.

Look, I don't think much of either as sentient human beings, but I do rate Lewis fairly high, so I'm not the type to let personal feelings influence my rating of a fighter. All I know is the bottom line with Holmes, a 1-5 record against standing champs holding a title, and he didn't beat that 1, Norton. He ran from the lucrative rematch after making $300 K for that fight he was such an unknown nothing. He said he'd rematch Norton or fight Young, but he never did. Shameless!

Facts are as the Ks rose up the ranks, the Brits and Yanks fled for the duration, something never seen before in the previous manly eras of boxing!

I'm willing to bet that not one person would care enough to bother looking up your HW top 20, or trying to imagine your 12 - 20.

[BitPlayer]

never held the WBO or IBO

Can you even call yourself a champion without the WBO or IBO belts?

[BitPlayer]

Pathetic Lennox never even got knocked out by someone with double digit losses or quit on his stool against a middleweight. Pfft

[Tuan_Jim]

BRR is another of boxbuzz/kalan's tedious alter egos, note how exactly like kalan he ignores timescales and refuses to be rational, criticising Holmes for being '1-5 vs champs', meaning the losses racked up by Holmes at 35, 36, 38, 42 and 45 are somehow representative of him in his prime, these losses being more important than being undefeated champ 7 yrs. Exact same deliberately stupid argument used by kalan, granberry, il duce, to annoy, to get him attention; he also overwrites every sentence like the failed writer he/buzz is. One after another these dumb 'character' posters come to bait, I don't know why anyone bothers.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

- Ah, so, Jimmy san, how a light fly know about Granberry?

Shhhhh, mum's the word. Mustn't alert the authorities.

Ol' wives' tale is you tiny baitfish used to catch big baitfish. I gave the timeline for their championship primes and past primes, proposed 3 different fantasy fights within those parameters, but I see you on that time share of that single besotted brain cell that gets passed around by this lot like your majic bongs.