controversial descisions in ali-fights!?

[Jan]

At the moment, i spend some of my time with analysing and watching muhammad alis carrer and i have to realize that many of his fights, mainly fights he won, are disputed by many.

Before his break 1967 theres only 1 fights, which ist unclaur: Thats the one with Doug Jones. But in the seventies there are a few: The 2 wins over Norton ( in the last fight Ali himself said Norton acutally had won) and the fight with lyle i ve heard was a close one to. by the way Frazier claims to have won all 3 bouts with ali , but ali actually claimed the same for him.

what do you think? Whats Alis real record, if all judges would have judged perfectly?

[Ambling Alp II]

55-5-1. The third Norton fight I scored a draw. Ali bashers usually judge literally every remotely close round in his opponent's favor.

I have seen people argue for the other guy in his fights with Doug Jones, Frazier II, Shavers, Young, Norton II and III, even Bugner, Evangelista, and Spinks II,
He won 19 decisions in his career and almost half of them are regarded as bad by someone.

Then there is the "controversy" of the first Henry Cooper, he wasn't in a neutral corner against Bonavena, the referee counted too fast against Foreman, Lyle fight should not have been stopped, Frazier III should not have been stopped. It just goes on and on.

Meanwhile, other fighters won over 100 decisions and we all act as if none can disputed. Or several close ones, or got away with illegal tactics, but hardly a word is said..

[DrDuke]

Norton fight #3 was a clear robbery. Young could have probably won, of not being deducted points, as far as I remember. Shavers was a clear win for Ali, the fight was even until the last 3 rounds, I believe, where Ali was able to take over. Doug Jones bout was also controversial for reason, it was very close.

[Sequitorian]

The one that garnered the most outrage was Ali / Liston II ...

[DrDuke]

Then there is the "controversy" of the first Henry Cooper, he wasn't in a neutral corner against Bonavena, the referee counted too fast against Foreman, Lyle fight should not have been stopped, Frazier III should not have been stopped. It just goes on and on.

Cooper fight had pure controversy. I believe, Cooper would have stopped Ali if not Dundee's filthy illegal tricks.

Foreman would have most likely been finished anyway, if the fight continued.

Lyle would have very likely also been stopped, if the fight went longer. A lot say, that Lyle was good and maybe even winning, but, as I saw it, Ali was toying with him and timed the moment of taking over well.

The 3rd Frazier fight is a very interesting case. I actually had it 7-7 before the 15th and, as far as I know, that is a pretty popular score. The thing is, Ali won the first rounds, Frazier won a big middle part of the fight, then Ali was winning the ending. Frazier was nearly blind on the one eye through the vast majority of his career (what is, by the way, a huge credit for Smokin' Joe), but in the last rounds of that fight he had his second eye swelling, so Joe didn't see anything in the 14th. It could just be seen, he was going face first and taking a lot of shots. But Ali didn't want to go for the 15th round because of terrible exhaustion. Dundee was trying to make him fight, but Ali was demanding his corner to put his gloves off. At the moment of stoppage it even could be seen, how someone in his corner was holding Ali's hand. I don't know, how to take this situation. On the one hand, Futch's opinion can't be underestimated, he witnessed some cases of death in the ring. On the other hand, Ali was probably more shot, than Joe, he even collapsed after the stoppage. So, I don't know. Probably it's a kinda sign, that their bitter rivalry could have been ended only with some help from aside, what boosts up the level of its greatness.

[DrDuke]

The one that garnered the most outrage was Ali / Liston II ...

By the way, that also should be mentioned. I believe, Liston took a dive.

[Sequitorian]

The one that garnered the most outrage was Ali / Liston II ...

By the way, that also should be mentioned. I believe, Liston took a dive.

There's a story behind it all ... maybe later ... (maybe someone else will tell it) ...

[DrDuke]

The one that garnered the most outrage was Ali / Liston II ...

By the way, that also should be mentioned. I believe, Liston took a dive.

There's a story behind it all ... maybe later ... (maybe someone else will tell it) ...

There are lotta stories about it. The first coming to my mind is the opinion, that Liston was forced to do it by the muslim mafia. However, I don't believe it, cause Liston himself was a gangsta.

[Sequitorian]

By the way, that also should be mentioned. I believe, Liston took a dive.

There's a story behind it all ... maybe later ... (maybe someone else will tell it) ...

There are lotta stories about it. The first coming to my mind is the opinion, that Liston was forced to do it by the muslim mafia. However, I don't believe it, cause Liston himself was a gangsta.

Yeah ... I think that's all BS too ... but that's not what I'm talking about ...

... it's about the ref and the guy who actually stopped the fight ...

[Seamus]

I had Jones and Norton in the 3rd bout winning by 1 pt, so it's not that big a stretch to say it could have gone either way. Young was a bad decision. Shavers may have been ahead at the bell, but he was finished. Frazier got hammered the last 2 rds of the "Thrilla In Manila".

[Jan]

I dont know, if the second Ali-Liston-Fight was fake. Theres no doubt in my opinion that Liston was hit very hard and he was moving foreward. maybe he he hadent enough guts to fight any further because he thought Ali would beat him up. But I doubt he took a dive intentionally. It reminds me ab bit on Tyson vs Clifford Etienne. Tyson hit him extremly hard and Etienne wasent interested in fighting any further and waitet till the ref counted him out.

In the Thrilla in Manilla i think Ali must have been ahead on Points, but he was exhausted as frazier and maybe he was closer on giving up than frazier..

what about Ali-Frazier 2? What are your thoughts on this relatively unknown fight?

[Boxing Writer]

Then there is the "controversy" of the first Henry Cooper, he wasn't in a neutral corner against Bonavena, the referee counted too fast against Foreman, Lyle fight should not have been stopped, Frazier III should not have been stopped. It just goes on and on.

Cooper fight had pure controversy. I believe, Cooper would have stopped Ali if not Dundee's filthy illegal tricks.

No, there was no controversy. The break between the rounds lasted only 2 seconds more, not 5 minutes like a lot of people think.

[BoxBuzz]

None are as controversial as the hype that some drama queens attach to them.

1. The Young fight was Young's to win, and he just annoyed the judges with his sticking his head out of the ring and probably legitimately lost the "boxing match" even if you want to say he won the "fight".

2. Lyle? he was out of it.....all that Ref did was save Ron's bacon. Was not defending himself. period the end.

3. Frazier II? The only controversy was when the ref ended a round early because Ali was hitting Joe too hard. He had the points in that fight by a mile. And he may have scored a KO which many will say could never have happened. I would simply have liked to see that round play out with no interference. Ah well. But even in losses Ali get bragging rights it seems. Hell his pulling himself off the canvas and staying competitive is a bigger deal to myself and some others, than his loss in that first fight. He came back and defeated this fighter, and the trilogy ends in a KO.

4. Liston II? Liston blew up Tyson style.....he got stunned, and used it to go home. He wasn't going to win so why take a hopeless beating? The only controversy on that one was Liston's psyche melt down...(IF he wasn't more stunned than most people imagine he was. And that is a big IF in my opinion.)

5. Doug Jones? Watch the fight.....Ali won.....it was just so much closer than anyone thought it could be, that Jones got points for style.

6. Cooper? once again watch it.....nothing there, except a knockdown that helped Ali learn a valuable lesson. Ali took more from his losses and close calls than any other fighter in history.

7. Norton III....the big one....and only genuine controversy. Probably should have been a draw. But all three judges and the ref have sustained their opinions to this day....or in some cases to their dying day. And all were pretty respected. They saw what they saw.... and they ruled on it. It's odd but not crazy. I've seen much worse rulings than that.....and I thought it was a draw.....as was the trilogy as a whole.

Like Tarver in later years, Norton focused on one fighters style to the exclusion of others....making them both great against the best fighter of their respective eras, but less stellar against the general competition of the time.

[Ambling Alp II]

I am pretty much agreement with this.
Anti-Ali people will grasp at straws at Ali's fights. Young did almost nothing offensively the entire fight and people say he got robbed. Are we really going to give him rounds where he sticks his head outside of the ropes?

There could have been 2 minutes and 50 seconds left in the round against Cooper and it would not have mattered. He was not going to knock him out.

The Jones fight was a very good fight. However, there were 6 rounds (out of 10) which you simply not can't make a case for Jones winning.

The 3rd Ali-Frazier us probably the most ridiculous. Ali was just teeing off on Frazier in the 13th and 14th rounds, Frazier can't see, and people say Ali would have quit. Please.

[Caractacus]

I think Oscar Bonavena may have been really close going into the 15th round anyway.

[Sequitorian]

Ali / Liston II ... (in six parts) ... ...

1) The Phantom Punch was a real punch ... it caught Liston off-guard and off-balance and dropped him ...

2) Ali stood over Liston menacingly ... (famous photo) ... which caused Liston to delay getting up right away ...

3) Liston didn't seem all that eager to get up anyway and rolled over on his back a second time (which is extremely suspicious) ... but he did get up eventually ... and was ready to continue the fight ... ... ... but all that took time ...

4) As the ref was rubbing-off Liston's gloves, he was called away by someone across the ring ... and he left the fighters to find out what was going on ... at which point they started to fight again ... and Ali threw six or seven more punches before the ref returned and called the fight off ... declaring Ali the winner ...

So what happened? ...

5) Ring Magazine Editor Nat Fleischer ... who happened to be sitting at ringside ... acting in a totally non-official capacity ... climbed up on the ring apron and called out to the Ref ... Jersey Joe Walcott ... who was totally unqualified to Referee ANY fight ... let alone a Heavyweight Championship Fight ... and had been given the referee job more as an honorarium than anything else ...

6) Fleischer told Walcott that Liston didn't beat the count and that he should stop the fight and declare Ali the winner .... which is exactly what Walcott did ...

The whole thing was a fiasco ... Walcott had no idea what he was doing and totally botched the count ... FLeischer had no business getting involved and Walcott had no business listening to him ...

A good ref would have forced Ali to a neutral corner and let the fight continue ...

[Sequitorian]

I always enjoyed seeing Drew "Bundini" Brown break-down into tears at the end of Ali's fights ...

[HomicideHenry]

Norton-Ali II & III, as well as Young, are really the only controversial decisions in Ali's career, unless you are one of the those guys who view someone getting hurt in rounds relegates it to being 10-8 even without a knockout then you could argue Shavers because he came closest of anyone to stopping Ali when he still had something left.

Now, I'm in a minority here, but... Ali vs Bonavena was weird scoring... I had Ringo ahead on the cards, before he got stopped in the 15th... I think, too, Ringo was robbed of at least a knockdown in that fight (Ali just got up so fast that the referee never made a count and ruled it a slip).

[elmersalsa]

Norton-Ali II & III, as well as Young, are really the only controversial decisions in Ali's career, unless you are one of the those guys who view someone getting hurt in rounds relegates it to being 10-8 even without a knockout then you could argue Shavers because he came closest of anyone to stopping Ali when he still had something left.

Now, I'm in a minority here, but... Ali vs Bonavena was weird scoring... I had Ringo ahead on the cards, before he got stopped in the 15th... I think, too, Ringo was robbed of at least a knockdown in that fight (Ali just got up so fast that the referee never made a count and ruled it a slip).

I'm glad that I am not the only one that had Oscar Bonavena ahead in his fight with the great Muhammad Ali.

I also believe that The Greatest lost all of his 3 fights with Ken Norton. And I also believe that Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson, even though, Ali was outta prime.

So, to be fair with Ali's record, he should have been 53-8 with 37KOs instead of 56-5, with 37KOs.

[Like a Boss]

Tall poppy syndrome is alive and well, and they didn't come taller than Ali.

I probably had Kenny Norton winning their 3rd meeting. But am I a better judge than those who judged it on the day? Is anyone here a better judge than those who judged it on the day?

It certainly would have had many rank Norton quite differently if he had got the nod in their third fight and therefore become the only fighter to have beaten Ali twice.

[Jan]

Im wondering why Ali had so much Trouble with Norton, because if we exclude the alifights Norton dident prove that much. he fought a good fight with Holmes later, but when he fought Ali the firtst time he actually was a no Name.

[DrDuke]

Im wondering why Ali had so much Trouble with Norton, because if we exclude the alifights Norton dident prove that much. he fought a good fight with Holmes later, but when he fought Ali the firtst time he actually was a no Name.

Before Ali fight Norton wasn't a big name indeed. But he appeared to be real deal. He actually had some big wins and great performances after Ali fight. Holmes wasn't the only one, there also were win over Quarry in a pretty entertaining bout, a win over Young, who had probably been the best guy after the big four of Ali-Frazier-Foreman-Norton.

[hhaehre]

My two cents:

1. Clay-Jones
Competitive fight, but still a clear win for Clay.

2. Clay-Cooper I
Got knocked down, got back up and won the fight. The glove thing is bs.

3. Ali-Liston II
Phantom punch was real, caused a flash kd and Liston decided to quit.

4. Ali-Frazier I
Ali lost fair and square.

5. Ali-Norton I
Ali lost fair and square.

6. Ali-Frazier II
Ali won fairly on the cards, but should have been penalised for holding and that would have changed the fight.
Not the fault of Ali that the ref was weak. Frazier saved from a 2nd round knock out by the timekeeper: HA HA

7. Ali-Foreman
Count seemed a tad fast, but Ali would have won anyway.

8. Ali-Lyle
Close (and bad) fight up until the tko. I think Lyle would have survived had he been allowed to go on as Ali
seemed arm weary, but the ref was correct in stopping it. At some point you have to punch back. Lyle would have
lost on points anyway had he been allowed to continue.

9. Ali-Frazier III
Ali won fair and square, and yes Ali would have come out for the 15th to win a decision had Frazier continued.

10. Ali-Young
Bad decision. Young won, head out of the ring or not.

11. Ali-Norton III
Bad decision, Norton clearly won.

12. Ali-Shavers
Close fight, but Ali won

13. Ali-Spinks II
Clear win for Ali

[Jan]

puh, to be honest, when i think about it, im a bit disappointed. im a big ali-fan, but when you look clearly at his fights in the 70s, then it wasent that much glorious. The win about FOREMAN is an outstanding masterpiece, but in the other fights Ali wasent clearly better than the others heavyweight like he was in the 60s.

[jamamb]

lol at any controversy over the ali vs foreman count, so many ppl too dim to realize that bob sheridans dubbed over commentary wasnt following the real count , he started late and was behind