Is Joe Joyce top ten in ability if not (yet) in achievement?

[candyslim]

I posted this in a thread on Whyte v Ortiz when the discussion strayed off-topic. Hopefully it might generate more debate in its own thread. I say he is top 10 he just needs an opportunity to prove it, but I know many may disagree ...

My estimation of how Joyce fares against the top heavyweights for what it's worth:

Anthony Joshua: Has too much of everything for Joe Joyce but would need to respect Joyce's power and keep a watch on his (own) fuel gauge.

Deontay Wilder: is much faster, more athletic and hits harder. Joyce is probably more resistant to Deontay's power than AJ would be, although much easier to hit. Both have good stamina. It could go the distance but I think Wilder's speed could be the deciding factor. Joyce is better than almost all Wilder's victims though.

Alexandr Povetkin: Hard to know how much he has left. Even at 38 he is quicker than Joyce, and he is a skilful boxer not easy to catch clean, even while pressing forward. Giving away height, reach, and youth. I don't think 2018 Povetkin stops Joyce and I doubt he outlasts him. Joyce is my choyce.

Dillian Whyte: I think he'd be well advised to steer clear. He might have the power to put away Joyce but it's doubtful. He would be conceding about 2" in height against an experienced amateur who has good basic skills when he cares to use them, and he isn't going to be the stronger finisher.

Oleksandr Usyk : Boxed Joyce's ears off for a 5 round points decision. Both have great stamina and I fancy Usyk to repeat the feat over the longer professional distance.

Tyson Fury: At his best far too mobile and quick. Joyce would have a puncher's chance, he hits a lot harder than Cunningham, but then Klitschko hit harder than Cunningham or Joyce. At the moment though Fury is way short of his best and I doubt he could stay with him.

Joe Parker: Another hard to predict. Parker is much the quicker not that it kept him out of trouble from Whyte's jab. I doubt Joyce put's him under as much pressure, but he has height and reach and will not go missing during the middle rounds. Could go either way.

Jarrell Miller: Has already declined to face Joyce not that I blame him. Why risk his ranking against someone of so few pro fights. Fight Ortiz Jarrell, he can't live with you now. This Miller v Joyce would be a cracking fight though, Both have good stamina, it would be Joyce with the height, reach and power advantages against the relentless aggression of the volume puncher. A difficult one to pick.

Dominic Breazeale: Two fighters of similar size, (lack of) speed, toughness. I think Joyce is equal or better in most areas notably technique. A win for Joyce.

Agit Kabayel: A tidy boxer but hasn't really done anything much. Lewandowski, Hubeaux, Chisora's his best win and i believe a Chisora who's up for it (like in the Whyte and Takam fights) would be too much for him. So would Joyce be.

Hughie Fury: Could be a real handful for Joyce. He won't hurt him but he can outbox him and outspeed him. I fancy Hughie to win provided he does some hitting as well as evading.

Andy Ruiz Jnr: Tough one to pick because Ruiz hasn't fought enough. Did well against Parker but that's about it. He's a good boxer and tough, but Joyce has all the physical advantages. I lean toward Joyce.

Dereck Chisora: Has already turned down the fight. Nothing to be gained for Dereck. He'd pose a lot of problems forJoyce though if he's motivated and well prepared but I fancy Joyce has too much quality.

Christian Hammer: No chance. Joe is better in every way, except speed and has the physical advantages to make up for that.

Manuel Charr: I see him and Hammer is very similar. Same goes for Charr. Maybe has an edge in skills but Joe is altogether too much for him.

Carlos Takam: Doesn't hit hard enough to stop Joe, won't outlast him, and Joe has height, reach, bulk, and should win comfortably .

Johann Duhaupas: Big and tough but Joyce has too much for him. He's the better schooled boxer.

Mariusz Wach: See Duhaupas. Very similar strengths and weaknesses plus Wach's best years are behind him.

Bryant Jennings: Much the smaller man. Won't match Joe for physicality but his mobility could set Joe some problems. He has some convincing to do before I'd consider picking him over Joyce though.

Charles Martin: An altogether less robust fighter than Joyce and without any obvious advantages to compensate. Joe stops him I reckon.

Bermane Stiverne: It's ok his inclusion is just a joke, and these days so is he.

Filip Hrgovic: This guy is going to emerge as a power in the division within a year or two. Very good boxer. I'd take him to outpoint Joe.

Gerald Washington: Not got the necessary mental strength. Joe discourages and stops him.

Amir Mansour: One tough s.o.b. but surely he's done now.

I could go on and on but I'll spare you.

[Mexi-Box]

He doesn't have the resume to be in the top 10, but he does beat almost everyone in the top 10 right now. By the way, that win over Lenroy Thomas is really good.

[candyslim]

That's exactly my point

[KiwiRider]

Anyone with good footwork and angles beats him.
So yeah, he is top 10 material

[Enlightened-One]

Joe Joycenis terribly overrated, to almost disgusting proportions.

[Cent0089]

I think even Bryant Jennings can comfortable defeat him

[punchoutsb]

Anyone with good footwork and angles beats him.
So yeah, he is top 10 material

This.

Anyone even half decent is top ten today.

Pathetic division at the moment.

[Stuarty]

I think even Bryant Jennings can comfortable defeat him

Doubt it tbh.

[Stuarty]

He has solid fundamentals and is very athletic. His workrate alone will get him past most fringe level guys.

[keirw]

Joyce is nothing special, but he could well be top ten, considering the currwnt crop of heavyweights.

But that says less about him and more about the lack of depth at heavyweight (outside the top few).

[candyslim]

Joe Joycenis terribly overrated, to almost disgusting proportions.

Obviously not by you. I stick by my assessment and will watch with interest. Who in the top ten or thereabouts will be willing to call his bluff I wonder.

Yes Kiwi your summary made me smile and has a ring of truth about it. I love the heavyweights but you don't have to go far down the rankings to find boxers who are lacking in skills. I'm not sure if it was ever very different in the past though. Look at who was around to challenge Marciano's dominance or Louis's to name just two.

70s gets a pass

[KiwiRider]

Joe Joycenis terribly overrated, to almost disgusting proportions.

Obviously not by you. I stick by my assessment and will watch with interest. Who in the top ten or thereabouts will be willing to call his bluff I wonder.

Yes Kiwi your summary made me smile and has a ring of truth about it. I love the heavyweights but you don't have to go far down the rankings to find boxers who are lacking in skills. I'm not sure if it was ever very different in the past though. Look at who was around to challenge Marciano's dominance or Louis's to name just two.

The division is in a bit of a lull right now, which is why a guy like Joyce is top ten material. I think in a year it two it will pick up. Joshua and Wilder have raised the bar and there are others coming through who will ignite it somewhat.
Usyk is the main game changer. He showed up Joyce big time.
But he isn't the only one to eventually bring exciting fights to the HW's. I'm banking on a new wave of top Am's and prospects making their way up.
Right now the top ten fight twice annually at best, that has to change. The new wave should see to that as fighters hungry enough for kudos and not just paydays change the scene.
We are looking at the tail end of guys like Pulev, Povitkin, Ortiz, Jennings, Wach, Chisora, Martin, Duhappas et al. Change is a comming when those guys realise they can't compete at the top and make way for the next generation.
Well, hopefully

[jamamb]

joe joyce is a slow man who doesnt really seem like he has elite talent to me, but i fell that he could already do well vs the likes of artur szplika or gerald washington or dimitrenko. with how the division is i expect that hell probably end up in the top 15 or so. he is at least strong and pretty well conditioned i think., and while his style is ugly ive seen him beat up lots of elite ams who looked 'better'.

[candyslim]

Love your optimism Kiwi. I'm hoping you're right rather than expecting.

Jammy I'm not a betting man but if Joyce can't do a lot better than beating those three you mentioned I'll be surprised, disappointed, and embarrassed (by my poor judgement)

[KiwiRider]

Love your optimism Kiwi. I'm hoping you're right rather than expecting.

Jammy I'm not a betting man but if Joyce can't do a lot better than beating those three you mentioned I'll be surprised, disappointed, and embarrassed (by my poor judgement)

My optimisim is based on age and activity. The lure is now there for top Am's to stick it out for 3-5 years and make a retirement worthy payday. If you can make it to a mandatory for a belt, you will earn way more than in the Klitchco days. With that incentive, it is making a lot of prospects raise their game and invigorate the sport. Geeze, I'm now sounding overtly optimistic to my self now

[Enlightened-One]

Abel Sanchez might be capable of performing miracles, by teaching an old slow crude cumbersome clueless dog a few new tricks, but if he can't, then I expect the Brit to lose very badly against all top ten ranked heavyweights.

By the way, some of the adjectives I used to describe Joe Joyce's in-ring ability were the same as those used by the Sky Sports commentary team when the watched him fight.

So I'm not alone in my thought process.

[candyslim]

No, and I normally have a lot of time for those thought processes, but like all of us you're not immune to getting a fixed idea and being unable to be objective about something. I know there are gaping flaws in Joyce's profile, judged against a mythical perfect fighter, but it's important not to lose sight of what he does do well. Stylistically I think he is not unlike George Foreman and although I'm risking being burned at the stake (metaphorically) now that the man has achieved deity status, I recall many of the same criticisms being applied to the both boxers with some degree of justification.

Please don't think I'm suggesting the two are comparable in quality. Given the disparity in achievement such claims would be absurd, but I think he has enough plus points - Good fundamentals, size, strength, power, stamina, durability - to compare very favourably to many of the current crop.

[Enlightened-One]

No, and I normally have a lot of time for those thought processes, but like all of us you're not immune to getting a fixed idea and being unable to be objective about something. I know there are gaping flaws in Joyce's profile, judged against a mythical perfect fighter, but it's important not to lose sight of what he does do well. Stylistically I think he is not unlike George Foreman and although I'm risking being burned at the stake (metaphorically) now that the man has achieved deity status, I recall many of the same criticisms being applied to the both boxers with some degree of justification.

Please don't think I'm suggesting the two are comparable in quality. Given the disparity in achievement such claims would be absurd, but I think he has enough plus points - Good fundamentals, size, strength, power, stamina, durability - to compare very favourably to many of the current crop.

I am a scientific thinker, because I respect facts and evidence, I constantly question my own beliefs, I never stop trying to learn new things and I am also willing to admit to being wrong in order to revise my opinion so that it more accurately reflects reality.

That being said, I have yet to see any evidence that compels me to regard Joe Joyce as a top-ten world-rated heavyweight.

He currently has far too many flaws for me to even consider riding his mythical hype train.

You claim that Joe Joyce reminds you of the legendary George Foreman, but he appears to be far more reminiscent of the nineties hype job, Michael Grant.

Perhaps Abel Sanchez can improve Joyce's ability to the point I'll eventually be forced to change my mind on this matter, but until then, I shall consider him as nothing but an exceptionally limited hype job.

[candyslim]

Time will be the judge.

[ewenhay]

Time will be the judge.

Yeah Joyce has everything to prove.

[candyslim]

Of course.

[candyslim]

Can't believe I forgot Kownacki. Oh well, there's no arguing he is deserving of consideration if the rest are, so ...

Adam Kownacki: A come forward fighter who throws a lot of punches, is a lot tougher and has a better engine than his soft looking torso might lead you to expect. Joyce is bigger, stronger, better basics, probably better punching power and can match Kownacki for stamina.

The only advantages Kownacki has are speed and punch volume. It may be enough but I consider it unlikely.

Sorry but it was nagging at me.

[ValMar]

Honestly, I don't know a lot about JJ, but I would like to see him competing on the highest level at HW.
As I know, he is not so young and has no time to waste, so, his next opponent should be somoene who belongs to the top 20, at least (H. Fury, Breaseale, Kabayal).

[candyslim]

Hughie is a dangerous opponent for Joyce because his speed, skill, and mobility are exactly what is required to diffuse Joe's physicality.

Breazeale is hoping for a shot at Wilder and won't be interested in Joyce. Not if he knows what's good for him anyway.

Kabayel is European champion and would be a good target but Joe needs first to get nominated by the EBU which would probably entail beating a Wallin or a Duhaupas or a Teper or someone like that.

All very appealing fights for the fans though Valmar I agree.

[jamamb]

hughie and 'appealing' dont go together at all