Buster Mathis Sr. was the Tony Tubbs and Greg Page of the 1960s

[scorpio83]

Does anyone agree that anyone watches the footage of Buster Mathis Sr's fights that despite the fact that he was big man, he could box with his quick jabs and move like the 1960s version of Greg Page and Tony Tubbs who were as big as Mathis?

[DrDuke]

Page and Tubbs were more advanced anyway, including the movement aspect. They were actually influenced with the popularized by Ali "dancing" style. Especially Page. By the way, there is an opinion that Ali's influence kinda spoiled some boxers in the sense, that they were Ali-wannabes and the imitation limited them to some extent, while they probably could have realised more potential with trying to develop their own styles, more fitting to themselves. Except Page, among those boxers were the likes of Tillis and Biggs. And Tubbs, I'd say, was a bit different, he just had some sort of natural slickness.

[BoxBuzz]

Interesting conversation, and I agree that Ali goofed up a lot of fighters of that day, by influencing them into favoring their "talent" over their "fundamentals". So many talented fighters could have been even better had they followed the fundamental path, and then lean toward their athleticism, intelligence and talent in a secondary way.

Ali was so gifted, (especially in speed, balance, and remarkable intuitive footwork) that he was one of just a few who could compromise the fundamentals and make it work at the highest level.....and then some. I also think his ring intelligence helped, because except for mastering the very best of incoming lefts, he was so understanding of the fundamentals that he somewhat shunned, he could anticipate most of the incoming perfectly.

Naseem Hamed was another example, though not quite as successful or perhaps as talented, but of course gifted with an insane amount of power. He could shun the fundamentals and for the most part get away with it. Had he hunkered down on his fundamentals, I'm certain he would have completely controlled his weight class.


Mathis Sr, and Tubbs were just great craftsman despite not having the pure physicality that would have perhaps taken them to greater heights. And I do see the comparisons here.


I think Greg Page is a bit of a different study, here was a guy who was truly gifted, and willing to buckle down on the fundamentals, and showed greatness at times. I just don't believe he ever had quite the "fire in the belly" that would have taken him much much further. He was a bit of a diamond who never quite stepped out of the "rough". But he could have. And he did quite well despite that.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali certainly had a unique style. However, take a look at the "fundamentals" that he didn't follow.

The biggest one is that held his hands low. I would argue that a fighter who has the the speed and reflexes to get out of the other fighter's range, you should keep your hands low. Gene Tunney was doing this in the 1920s.
As for moving around so much, is that really against any fundamental? It's part of ring generalmanship.

He did throw a lot of "arm punches" However, he was trying to stop fighters by the accumulation of blows and winning by points, not trying to stop the other guy with one big shot.

His jab was textbook. His combination punching was excellent.

Ultimately, the goal of boxing is to hit the other guy and not get hit yourself. Nobody did it better than Ali during his prime.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sorry I didn't mean to hijack this thread which is about Mathis, Tubbs, and Page.
There are some similarities. they were all big guys who moved well and had good boxing skills. None had a lot of power, especially Tubbs. All three showed moments that were impressive and other times where they looked bad. Sometimes in the same fight.

[DrDuke]

The biggest one is that held his hands low. I would argue that a fighter who has the the speed and reflexes to get out of the other fighter's range, you should keep your hands low. Gene Tunney was doing this in the 1920s.

That's right. Hands up is a basic rule, if not a pure law, which mustn't be broken, otherwise the punishment will be severe. Unless there are some things, that make exceptions. Those are remarkable speed and reflexes. Tunney is a good example, he was a unique, a very progressive fighter for his times, he could put hands low because of his movement abilities and reflexes.

The same can be said about the shoulder-roll defence. It looks like a perfect style not to get hit, but still you have to possess something to be able to utilize it.

So, fundamentals are obviously important (it's in the word "fundamentals" itself) and you need them, until you have something instead. Raised hands can be an obstacle for exceptionally swift boxer, but without that abilities they are necessary.

[BoxBuzz]

Something else that was a common element of some these fighters....balance, and knowing your parameters...where YOU are in the juxtaposition. This was a nearly insane capability that Ali demonstrated that once again could help transcend the fundamentals.....well...maybe not the balance, as that could be should be included I suppose. But that self awareness of where you are...that "Radar" so to speak....that's a gift.

Some of these guys had that despite there limitations. And that is incredibly helpful as a boxer. IF you have that, AND you drill down on the basics....you get quite successful quite rapidly.

[scorpio83]

Thanks for the analysis from all 3 names I mentioned in this forum and also thanks Boxbuzz that you see the similarity between Mathis Sr. and Tubbs as I am. I wonder if a prime Buster Mathis Sr. fought in the 1980s, would he have gain an Alphabet title against someone other than Larry Holmes and Mike Tyson?