Sugar Ray Leonard vs Kid Gavilan

[Cojimar 1946]

At welterweight

[elmersalsa]

This is hard fight to pick a winner. Both fantastic boxers in my view.

[Ambling Alp II]

As great as Gavilan was, there is nothing Gavilan could do better and Leonard had much more power. Leonard wins a very good fight.

[Cojimar 1946]

One problem with comparing eras is that a lot of the old timers (60s and earlier) were very inconsistant. Even Sugar Ray Robinson had draws with guys like Jose Basora and Henry Brimm at his peak. It's not too say that they didn't have ability, but guys favoring the more modern guys can always point to the bad losses suffered by the guys of earlier eras even at their peak.

[Ambling Alp II]

It is a good point that sometimes a loss or a draw on a fighters record can deceiving and younger fans can point to that and get the draw the wrong conclusion.

What often happened is that many fighters (like Gavilan and Robinson) simply fought a lot more than fighters usually do now.
If you are fighting well over 100 fights, than a single loss means less than it would if you had say 30 or fights.
Sometimes fighters took fights on very short notice. Other times they fought very soon after a previous fight. For example when Robinson had a draw with Brimm, he just had a fight 5 days previously. Obviously, it's much easier to fight your best when you have months between fights.

Also fighters used to be much more tested early on. A prospect did not automatically start his career 20-0 against creampuffs. he was . Usually he would have fought a few tough veterans and other prospects in his first few years on his way up.

If you look at he Top 10 in recent times, usually it's filled with several fighters who are undefeated or 1 loss. Most of these guys have not fought each other.
If you look at the top 10 much further back, you will routinely see guys with records of 30-7 or 56-11 or something like that. Usually they will have some respectable wins and their losses were to other contenders, fights on their way up, or fights on short notice.

[Sidney Carton]

As great as Gavilan was, there is nothing Gavilan could do better and Leonard had much more power. Leonard wins a very good fight.

Gavilan had much better stamina than Leonard and a much better chin.

[Ambling Alp II]

No to both of those.

[Scypion]

No to both of those.

Alp, I usually agree with your opinions, but I think that you underestimate Gavilan. Gavilan had 140 fights and was never knocked out or stopped. He gave away a lot of weight to some of his opponents including Dogomar Martinez, a contender in the light heavyweight division.

For most of his fights, Kid Gavilan used to train on the dance floor, but when he defended his title, he could be very tough. He gave Robinson a couple of pretty tough fights, and Ray Robinson was considered the GOAT by many.

I believe that a prime Gavilan and prime Leonard fight goes to a decision.

Also, Gavilan was very fast, as was Leonard.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem that I had no respect for Gavilan. He was clearly an ATG great. In the last post, I was trying to say that Gavilan did not have superior stamina or chin than Leonard. Leonard never had stamina problems and walked through everything that Tommy Hearns threw at him.

I don't think this would be walk in the park for Leonard. It probably would go the distance. However, Leonard would win. He was as a complete of fighters as can he be. He could do it all.

[Cojimar 1946]

i would say the phenomenon started as early as the 70s. That's when you started getting great fighters without the spotty records, or at least they became far more common.

[Sidney Carton]

Leonard never had stamina problems

Except when he did.


Tell us some more fairy tales.

[Ambling Alp II]

How about naming one of them?

[Nile4000]

Ray by close decision over the Kid.

[Scypion]

I think it's a toss up.

[Cojimar 1946]

Gavilan's durability is impressive given how many fights he went without being stopped.

[Abradolf Lincler]

Gavilan had a superior work rate, particularly in close quarters. That's probably the only real edge he would hold.

I'm with Alp. I'd like an example of when Ray showed anything resembling stamina issues.