Classic Fantasy Fight: 1965 Cassius Clay vs 1986 Mike Tyson

[Interllect123]

So essential these versions of both fighters:


Vs


So who wins that fight in your own opinion and why?

[tiny_acres]

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Ali would out box. Out class and frustrate Tyson.
Stiff jabs would keep Tyson out of harms range and Tyson would fold by the 10th

[gilgamesh]

I favor Ali by late stoppage or Unanimous Decision as well.

Tyson would give him problems early perhaps, and I could definitely see Mike rattling Ali in spots, but Ali would be able to move, and frustrate Tyson in a lot of ways. Ali talking sh*t to Mike during the fight, would probably make him mentally unravel too. Especially after he hit Ali with his best shot, and Ali's still standing there.

[adislav123]

TYSON, KNOCKOUT, Rd. 3 to 5. Maybe Ali is able to run, stick & move early on, but as soon as mike gets to him and there's no way that he doesnt, he knocks Ali around the ring like a human ragdoll, similiar to what he did to larry holmes. That said, in my opinion doesn't take away anything from Ali being the greatest heavyweight of HIS aera.

[gilgamesh]

TYSON, KNOCKOUT, Rd. 3 to 5. Maybe Ali is able to run, stick & move early on, but as soon as mike gets to him and there's no way that he doesnt, he knocks Ali around the ring like a human ragdoll, similiar to what he did to larry holmes. That said, in my opinion doesn't take away anything from Ali being the greatest heavyweight of HIS aera.

Larry Holmes hadn't fought in years when he fought Mike Tyson, and Ali is a lot better than Buster Douglas. Just sayin'

[adislav123]

Absolutely, i agree to everything you just said. Ali better than Douglas, absolutely. Buster just also was definitely physically "stronger" than 67' Ali or any version you consider prime. I also do not consider tyson of tokyo, prime-tyson. But whatever, the ali-tyson topic is for sure found to have been discussed already multiple times in the history section.

[adislav123]

Maybe ali could eventually get away and run for 12 rounds, just can't see him hurting prime mike.

[gilgamesh]

Maybe ali could eventually get away and run for 12 rounds, just can't see him hurting prime mike.

Who ever knocked out Prime Ali?

Joe Frazier didn't do it, George Foreman didn't do it, Earnie Shavers didn't do it, Sonny Liston didn't do it. Huge punchers one and all.

Ali could outbox Mike whether he could hurt him or not.

[tiny_acres]

Maybe ali could eventually get away and run for 12 rounds, just can't see him hurting prime mike.

Who ever knocked out Prime Ali?

Joe Frazier didn't do it, George Foreman didn't do it, Earnie Shavers didn't do it, Sonny Liston didn't do it. Huge punchers one and all.

Ali could outbox Mike whether he could hurt him or not.

Ali could and would of hurt Tyson. Once Tyson got peppered with jab after jab. Tyson punching at what he can't hit he will tire and Ali would drop him for a legitimate 10 count

[Thomastearns]

The closest we got to Tyson v Ali was not Tyson v Holmes (that wasn't even a peak Holmes) but the night on Aug 1st 1987 when Mike Tyson fought Tony Tucker.



Your opinion on the outcome of a peak Ali v a peak Tyson could depend on whether you see Ali as better or worse than Tony Tucker.

I think a peak Tyson stops any version of Ali after Manilla but a 66/67 Ali would wear Mike down, and possibly get a late stoppage if it's over 15 rounds.

Unless of course all the Ali mind games got to work on Mike's confidence. Then there's no telling just how long Mike would stick at it. Mike's belief and stability would certainly be pushed to it's limits in such a fight.

Having said all that I still believe that a peak Mike Tyson beats any other man who ever stepped into a boxing ring.


Float kind a butterfly
Sting like a bee
Your hands cant hit what your eyes cant see
Now you see me now you don't
You think you will
But I know you won't

[adislav123]

Foreman, Shavers, Liston are practically 3 of my alltime favourite fighters, i just think that prime tyson of around 87' is to favor over any heavyweight in history. And i well maybe wrong or it even may mean nothing at all cause tyson against those 3 would be monstrous mythical megamatch-ups with so much brutal power in every punch that it is practicly impossible to predict who would stay on his feet anyways. I know ali beat them all in reality in amazing, legendary fights but how did he beat liston? And i don't think he would've finished a second or third fight with foreman on his feet.

[Enlightened-One]

Tyson loses by decision or late stoppage. ‘Iron’ Mike has never been able to overcome adversity and he’d face quite a lot of it whilst being comprehensively out-boxed by the young Cassius Clay.

How on earth does a big puncher like Tyson manage to gain any leverage and power in his hooks/uppercuts if he has to constantly chase a fleet-footed Cassius Clay around the ring for twelve rounds? Even if ‘Iron’ Mike gets lucky and lands one of his biggest blows, he doesn’t stand much chance of hurting his cocky sturdy-chinned opponent.

Tyson won’t be able to intimidate Clay. In fact, Mike is probably much weaker, mentally, than Cassius, which may result in Tyson either quitting or doing something monumentally stupid, like looking for the exit door via the disqualification route.

Only the first three or four rounds of a mythical bout between Clay and Tyson would be competitive. After that, it’d be one-way traffic.

[Syntax Error]

What's with Cassius Clay?

The man was called Muhammad Ali by 1965 and probably wouldn't take kindly to being called by his slave name (in his words).

Pedants aside, I favour Ali by late TKO.

Too elusive, too tough and too mentally strong for Tyson.

[adislav123]

Obviously not too many people heard this. It"s also really hard to understand. Maybe somebody with the interest and time at his hands could transcribe it. Thought i just post it in here. Hard to "watch", i couldn't.

[Enlightened-One]

Obviously not too many people heard this. It"s also really hard to understand. Maybe somebody with the interest and time at his hands could transcribe it. Thought i just post it in here. Hard to "watch", i couldn't.

I couldn’t cope with listening to the entire video, because it was unbearable, due to manner in which Tucker tried to convey his thoughts (i.e. his speech was slurred), coupled with the robotic tone of his voice (as a result of the dire phone line).

Anyway, here’s the gist of the early stages of the conversation…

Tony Tucker suffered a hairline fracture in his wrist that needed to be put in a pot for ten days, which coincidentally occurred roughly ten days prior to the bout.

‘TNT’ buckled Tyson’s knees in the first round of their fight, which unfortunately reinjured Tucker’s wrist.

Tony then had to carry the injury for the remaining eleven rounds of the fight, essentially trying to fend off ‘Iron’ Mike’s charges with one hand for pretty much the entire bout.

[adislav123]

"couldn’t cope with listening to the entire video, because it was unbearable, due to manner in which Tucker tried to convey his thoughts (i.e. his speech was slurred), coupled with the robotic tone of his voice (as a result of the dire phone line)"

That! What i meant! shit! I wish i could convey my thoughts like that!

Still, was interesting, imagine what he'd have shown with two healthy hands? Where there ever talks of a rematch, yeah tyson clearly won the fight, but who at the time was not surprised by tucker displaying tremendous fighting spirit?

[BoxBuzz]

Note to "enlightened one".


Ali was perfectly happy for folks to refer to him as Cassius during the time that Cassius was actually his name. He even would say...."That was Cassius not Ali" on occasion. In respect.....many of us often refer to him as Cassius when discussing his life before his name change....he seemed to take no offense to that. Ali was born when Ali was born which was the day (metaphorically) when Cassius passed, or at least "stepped aside".


Does that make sense to folks?

[Syntax Error]

Note to "enlightened one".


Ali was perfectly happy for folks to refer to him as Cassius during the time that Cassius was actually his name. He even would say...."That was Cassius not Ali" on occasion. In respect.....many of us often refer to him as Cassius when discussing his life before his name change....he seemed to take no offense to that. Ali was born when Ali was born which was the day (metaphorically) when Cassius passed, or at least "stepped aside".


Does that make sense to folks?

I think you've got the wrong guy; it was me whining about the use of Clay over Ali.

He became Muhammad Ali in 1964 and we're discussing him after that time.

He was Cassius Clay for a mere 22 years, whereas he was Muhammad Ali for 52 years.

The majority of his boxing career was as Muhammad Ali and all of his biggest fights, apart from Liston 1 were as Ali.

He hated being called Clay after 1964 & once virtually tortured an opponent for refusing to call him Ali, so I believe it was important for him.

Anyway, I don't wish to take the thread off topic anymore as this is a well documented issue.

[DrDuke]

Clay would have won probably. Tyson was special with his speed, but Clay was as well. Tyson, however, sometimes failed to develop his game of chasing and catching his opponents. He also could be frustrated by elusive defensive boxers.

[BoxBuzz]

Note to "enlightened one".


Ali was perfectly happy for folks to refer to him as Cassius during the time that Cassius was actually his name. He even would say...."That was Cassius not Ali" on occasion. In respect.....many of us often refer to him as Cassius when discussing his life before his name change....he seemed to take no offense to that. Ali was born when Ali was born which was the day (metaphorically) when Cassius passed, or at least "stepped aside".


Does that make sense to folks?

I think you've got the wrong guy; it was me whining about the use of Clay over Ali.

He became Muhammad Ali in 1964 and we're discussing him after that time.

He was Cassius Clay for a mere 22 years, whereas he was Muhammad Ali for 52 years.

The majority of his boxing career was as Muhammad Ali and all of his biggest fights, apart from Liston 1 were as Ali.

He hated being called Clay after 1964 & once virtually tortured an opponent for refusing to call him Ali, so I believe it was important for him.

Anyway, I don't wish to take the thread off topic anymore as this is a well documented issue.

It is well documented we agree on that. And the title of this thread does seem to be in error. But Ali was clear on more than one occasion regarding who he was, and WHEN he was who. Are you suggesting..(or insisting) that he only be referred to as Ali from birth in all situations? I have no issue with that myself, I'm just curious if that's what you are getting at? I sincerely believe it's ok to refer to him as Cassius until the day of his name change. And I've been advised by Muslims that this is respectful and sensible. I do believe that Cat Stevens has mentioned this as well. But I do want to show proper respect at all times. And perhaps this is controversial? I thought I'd put time and energy into this so that I could speak diplomatically and knowledgeably on this. You do seem to hold a counter opinion. Or are you specifically pointing out that in fact there was indeed NO Cassius Clay in 1965? In which case I do recognize that (a bit late) to be the case. I just didn't do the math well I'm afraid if 1964 was the change date. "The Artist" formerly known as Prince has a section of his life where he went by an alt name. Of course in that case, it was not on religious grounds but the product of a contractual dispute.

[SenorPipino]

What's with Cassius Clay?

The man was called Muhammad Ali by 1965 and probably wouldn't take kindly to being called by his slave name (in his words).

Pedants aside, I favour Ali by late TKO.

Too elusive, too tough and too mentally strong for Tyson.

Agree with everything here, including Ali being Ali in 1965, not Clay.

He officially took the Ali moniker in late 1964.

In 1965, Ali wasn't at his peak. That probably came in late 1966 through the Folley bout in 1967.

Tyson was probably physically at his peak in 1987/1988.

But he was a mentally weak character at any point in his career, and would have melted down when confronted with Ali's speed and frustrating movement and general ring savvy.

The stinging Ali jab would have upset Tyson's rythym and kept him from ever getting untracked.

The easy to discourage Tyson would have basically quit by the 10th round, and it would only be a matter of time before Ali poured it on and sent Tyson to the showers as a TKO victim.

[tiny_acres]

What's with Cassius Clay?

The man was called Muhammad Ali by 1965 and probably wouldn't take kindly to being called by his slave name (in his words).

Pedants aside, I favour Ali by late TKO.

Too elusive, too tough and too mentally strong for Tyson.

Agree with everything here, including Ali being Ali in 1965, not Clay.

He officially took the Ali moniker in late 1964.

In 1965, Ali wasn't at his peak. That probably came in late 1966 through the Folley bout in 1967.

Tyson was probably physically at his peak in 1987/1988.

But he was a mentally weak character at any point in his career, and would have melted down when confronted with Ali's speed and frustrating movement and general ring savvy.

The stinging Ali jab would have upset Tyson's rythym and kept him from ever getting untracked.

The easy to discourage Tyson would have basically quit by the 10th round, and it would only be a matter of time before Ali poured it on and sent Tyson to the showers as a TKO victim.

I agree with every word you wrote. Good post

[BoxBuzz]

What's with Cassius Clay?

The man was called Muhammad Ali by 1965 and probably wouldn't take kindly to being called by his slave name (in his words).

Pedants aside, I favour Ali by late TKO.

Too elusive, too tough and too mentally strong for Tyson.

Agree with everything here, including Ali being Ali in 1965, not Clay.

He officially took the Ali moniker in late 1964.

In 1965, Ali wasn't at his peak. That probably came in late 1966 through the Folley bout in 1967.

Tyson was probably physically at his peak in 1987/1988.

But he was a mentally weak character at any point in his career, and would have melted down when confronted with Ali's speed and frustrating movement and general ring savvy.

The stinging Ali jab would have upset Tyson's rythym and kept him from ever getting untracked.

The easy to discourage Tyson would have basically quit by the 10th round, and it would only be a matter of time before Ali poured it on and sent Tyson to the showers as a TKO victim.

I agree with every word you wrote. Good post

I'll take this a step further....the "winner" here is about the "who" and not the skillset. (Which is something I often mention here) Take these guys and swap their minds and bodies, and the fella with Ali's psyche is going to win either way. This is about mental and emotional/spiritual dominance. Not as much about the better fighter. NOTHING could defeat Ali mentaly, With the possible exceptions of the Holmes fight, Ali probably thought he won (or missed the opportunity to win) every fight he ever fought. He was that tough mindwise. Tyson was a snow flake in comparison, especially once he tasted defeat. Ali used his first "defeat" (which he was convinced he won) to become even more confident in his abilities.

[martezmcgee]

Personally I think that Mike was definitely that devastating power puncher that would do most damage in the earlier rounds but could be vulnerable in 15 rounder with Ali because of Ali,s old style fighting techniques. He was that fighter who would fight with much damage and will. Mike's not going to play the old make it look good game. I'm hungry and even more hungry after the fight. Lets get this over early attitude. I bumped into Mike at a Venue in Indianapolis, In when I was 20 years old. He bumped me as I was fastening my suit jacket. His words were: "Excuse me money". I smiled and said your good. My ex-girlfriends mouth dropped. He was a light green t-shirt and I was wearing a olive color suite. I thought, well we're both money. Mike knew what was going on. I don't feel it was an accident. It was not my first run in with prize fighter due to my cousin was a prize fighter and I attended several fights with him in the ring with such fighters as Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini and watched him fight Roger Mayweather. His name was Kelvin Lampkins. A Super Feather weight. He moved up several times in weight to get his money fights. Mike and Ali stayed around that Heavyweight for their careers because they had that Gladiator personality.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

What's with Cassius Clay?

The man was called Muhammad Ali by 1965 and probably wouldn't take kindly to being called by his slave name (in his words).

Pedants aside, I favour Ali by late TKO.

Too elusive, too tough and too mentally strong for Tyson.

Agree with everything here, including Ali being Ali in 1965, not Clay.

He officially took the Ali moniker in late 1964.

In 1965, Ali wasn't at his peak. That probably came in late 1966 through the Folley bout in 1967.

Tyson was probably physically at his peak in 1987/1988.

But he was a mentally weak character at any point in his career, and would have melted down when confronted with Ali's speed and frustrating movement and general ring savvy.

The stinging Ali jab would have upset Tyson's rythym and kept him from ever getting untracked.

The easy to discourage Tyson would have basically quit by the 10th round, and it would only be a matter of time before Ali poured it on and sent Tyson to the showers as a TKO victim.

- First off, though Ali weren't bright enough to know it then, his Irish grandpa was a recent immigrant and married his free black granny from his maternal side of the family, nary a slave or slave holder name in that lineage. Maybe his pop had a slave name, but nobody I know has studied that. He had been brainwashed by NOI back then to become mentally unbalanced enough to almost cause the cancellation of the first Liston fight because of hysteria. He couldn't initially pass the physical and lucky to get a second chance. He was 22 for those fights that are infamous for dozens of good reasons.

Just before turning 22, Tyson had literally crucified Tubby Larry who claimed along with his fans he was really 50-0 instead of 48-2, and had laid out undefeated Mike Spinks for dead as well as setting the all time record for career earnings. Nobody in boxing history could match those first 4 years of his. After that the headshrinks put him on strong experimental psych sedatives, but made to 10-0 8 KO title record at age 23 that took Ali until age 25 to match. Tyson's opponents during this time were vastly bigger, stronger, more powerful than empty buckets on Ali's 3 HOFers, 50 yr old Moore, Whiskey trained Liston who was 6-1 fav the first fight and still the fav the 2nd, and brokeback Patterson. Tyson was 36-0 overall, and Ali at 28-0

That Ali wouldn't win a single fight against that Tyson because he was distinctly vulnerable to KDs by little guy Banks and Cooper left hooks and being mullered by little Doug Jones. He was still Gaseous Cassius to the public, yet later a magnificent return to boxing as Ali.

At some point past that time Mike has lost his vastly superior HOF team of D'amato, Jacobs, and Cayton and becomes a clubfighting, free swinging zombie known for early demolitions. Given their previous fantasy history of Ali losing every one of those early fights, it would be doubtful if he was more than a drooling vegetable. Now if you could magically pick Ali from his actual timeline after his return to boxing and put him in with the DKing and later post prison Tyson, now we have a competitive fight that Ali could win at least 50%. Ali was the more active fighter whereas Tyson something of a 4 rd part timer at that phase, but if he got Ali in early trouble, ref might well pull the plug.

So, best to best Tyson smokes Ali, but never fear ye doubters of the factual history of both fighters, all eventually to be settled in Valhalla, so best mind your manners and hope and pray they allow dumkopf fan boys in. I'm hardly a fan of Tyson, but he is what he was and is unmatched what he accomplished with the savviest HOF team in history, a juggernaut! And even now a 50 year old Tyson would KTFO of any version of Leon Spinks that ever existed. Ali was soiling himself by the end of his career as his sycophants and loony fans kept him propped up way past his expiration date.