Canelo Alvarez’s refusal to back down from Gennady Golovkin in their anticipated rematch made for a classic middleweight confrontation and earned the Mexican star a close majority decision over the unbeaten veteran on Saturday in Las Vegas. Alvarez (50-1-2, 34 knockouts) regained The Ring and WBC middleweight titles and also picked up the WBA belt with the hard-fought victory.
Alvarez had been stripped of The Ring title over the summer after being suspended by the Nevada Athletic Commission for testing positive for the banned substance clenbuterol in February. He was also dropped from the magazine’s pound-for-pound rankings. After serving his suspension and returning to the ring with arguably the best performance of his career, Alvarez has been reinstated in the mythical rankings, but his placement in the top-five was a point of debate among the Ratings Panel.
Golovkin (38-1-1, 34 KOs), who had begun to show his age last year, was unseated from the top spot in the pound-for-pound rankings with the first loss of his professional career. Vasyl Lomachenko, previously No. 2 in The Ring’s pound-for-pound top 10, advanced to No. 1 with fellow three-division titleholder Terrence Crawford moving up one spot behind him to No. 2. Alvarez re-entered at No. 3 followed by Golovkin, who many observers felt won a close nod or deserved a legit draw, at No. 4. Undisputed cruiserweight champ Aleksandr Usyk rounds out The Ring’s pound-for-pound top five.
Here’s how the email debate among Ratings Panelists and members of the Editorial Board ensued on Sunday:
Anson Wainwright (Panelist):
“I thought GGG won and seems most were of that belief. Excellent, close fight. My new P4P top 10:
“I had 7-5 (in rounds to) Canelo but no matter what you had, you were right and wrong. For my money, the pair are bang even and separating them is a major chore. However, Canelo won legitimately and there’s an argument for him at 1, 2 or 3. I’ll take No. 2. He beat our pound-for-pound best and won an authentic superfight.
“Neither Crawford or Lomachenko has accomplished that YET, but I’ll stick with Bud at No. 1 for his title victories across three weights (undisputed at one of them).
“I like Anson’s re-figured top 10, except I would have Usyk at No. 3 since there are zero doubts about his wins and they all came in the other guy’s back yard! Can see argument for Crawford over Loma as well, but so close I prefer eclectic style of Loma who pushes himself more and beat most complete foe in Rigo and Linares.”
Adam Abramowitz (Panelist):
“I’d go with Crawford, Lomachenko, Usyk, Canelo, Golovkin.”
Mike Coppinger (Panelist):
“That’s not true, Anson. The majority of ringside media had it a draw, including myself, Dougie (Fischer), (Dan) Rafael, (Keith) Idec and a host of others. Fight could have went either way.”
“I’d go: Crawford, Canelo, Loma, GGG, Mikey.
Brian Harty (Editorial Board):
“I scored it a draw but there were probably three rounds where I was still trying to decide who won when the next round started. Totally fine with the result.
“With Crawford and Loma in the neighborhood I don’t like the idea of Canelo at No. 1, but just (to play) devil’s advocate… what are the arguments for not having him there? There was a similar issue that came up when Sor Rungvisai beat (Roman) Gonzalez… after the first fight, Gonz dropped to No. 4 but SSR didn’t enter the list at all because – if I’m remembering correctly – it was a mix of bad decision and performance slippage on Chocolatito’s part. After the second fight, Gonz was dropped completely and SSR still didn’t enter, and the reasoning was that Gonz was just damaged goods at that point and he had completely overreached his true weight and was up against a guy who he couldn’t dent, so SSR knocking him out wasn’t P4P-worthy.
“Let’s not forget that Canelo was ranked at No. 4 when he was removed for the suspension. So, if we pick up there… Anson, when you say he should be ranked No. 3, you’re essentially penalizing GGG but giving Canelo no credit for beating No. 1. Adam’s list is even sort of demoting Canelo. But like you said, Adam, there are a lot of things to consider:
– Does Canelo pick up where he left off in the ratings?
– Are we saying that GGG himself didn’t look like No. 1?
– Are we saying that Canelo’s case is harmed by these two fights being so close and even controversial, whereas Crawford and Loma win very clearly?
“Going into Ward-Kovalev I, Kovalev was No. 2 and Ward No. 4… afterward it was No. 3 and 2 respectively because of the controversial result. Nevertheless, Ward took Kovalev’s rank. Ward then became No. 1 when Gonzalez lost.
“That’s the closest comparison I can think of. I don’t think Kovalev should’ve been so high and wasn’t crazy about GGG at No. 1, so I’m fine with not putting Canelo at the top. Again, just curious to hear the arguments so we keep it as consistent as possible in a completely subjective list based on fantasy criteria, haha.”
Adam Abramowitz:
“Brian, there are many considerations. I will speak freely here. Golovkin being No. 1 at Ring Magazine pre-dated my arrival on the panel. Personally, I didn’t feel it was the right choice, but so be it, that was out of my control.
“However, given the non-definitive nature of Alvarez’s win, (in addition to non-definitive wins against Lara and Trout), I don’t feel like Alvarez is remotely comparable to Ward, who only had one close fight in his whole career. The whole case for Alvarez being among the truly elite relies upon the magnanimity of judges. I’m not going to pretend that Canelo didn’t win those fights, nor will I refuse to accept their verdicts, but that is not the best fighter in the sport to me. In three of his four biggest tests, he left serious doubt as to if he actually won those fights. I think ranking him at No. 4 or No. 5 is more than fair.”
Marty Mulcahey:
“My argument against Canelo would be that in the four fights against his best foes (Mayweather, GGG, and Lara) a case can be made that he lost all four. Loma faced one top 10 P4P guy and dominated him. Usyk only has two divisions to operate in because of size but has wiped out one without remorse or question and looks on his way to trying the same at heavyweight. When Usyk, Crawford, and Loma face elite there seems to be little slippage, not so with Canelo IMO. Not an easy (decision) and why I don’t like P4P since much comes down to eye test since there are no valid comparisons given these guys operate in different landscapes.”
Here are the rankings for the Ring Magazine’s pound-for-pound list:
1. Vasyl Lomachenko
2. Terence Crawford
3. Saul Canelo Alvarez
4. Gennady Golovkin
5. Oleksandr Usyk
6. Mikey Garcia
7. Naoya Inoue
8. Srisaket Sor Rungvisai
9. Errol Spence Jr.
10. Donnie Nietes
Thoughts?
Last edited by Enlightened-One on 19 Sep 2018, 04:38, edited 1 time in total.
I think I favour guys who have gained belts in multiple weights over guys who have cleaned out one division like Uysk. If Uysk goes to HW and cleans Joshua or Wilders clock, even better.
KiwiRider wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 04:52
I think I favour guys who have gained belts in multiple weights over guys who have cleaned out one division like Uysk. If Uysk goes to HW and cleans Joshua or Wilders clock, even better.
KiwiRider wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 04:52
I think I favour guys who have gained belts in multiple weights over guys who have cleaned out one division like Uysk. If Uysk goes to HW and cleans Joshua or Wilders clock, even better.
Usyk still deserves top 10 though.
Oh for sure he does!
Top 5 on my list. Nothing like cleaning out a division and having no doubt who the top dog is. Wish all divisions had a top dog, ahhh the good old days
KiwiRider wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 04:52
I think I favour guys who have gained belts in multiple weights over guys who have cleaned out one division like Uysk. If Uysk goes to HW and cleans Joshua or Wilders clock, even better.
Usyk still deserves top 10 though.
Oh for sure he does!
Top 5 on my list. Nothing like cleaning out a division and having no doubt who the top dog is. Wish all divisions had a top dog, ahhh the good old days
Yeh.. That's what the WBSS is hoping to do at least.. But then you got Arum not allowing his kids to enter..
At least FW and Hearn are allowing their kids to enter.. Not sure bout GBP..
If Arum had any confidence in Zurdo and had him enter, he would have been a favorite alongside Groves.. Although all major 4 belts would still not be in the tournament, with the talent in, it would have still given us the #1 at SMW..
Ruthless-RKO wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 05:54
If Arum had any confidence in Zurdo and had him enter, he would have been a favorite alongside Groves.. Although all major 4 belts would still not be in the tournament, with the talent in, it would have still given us the #1 at SMW..
Zurdo ruined the WBSS SMW somewhat, by not entering. The same Zurdo who, and I quote; "want to fight the best, to unify the belts"
Yeah right. Tosser.
Some horrible lists. How people have Sor Rungvisai not in the top 5 is ridiculous. The man has two wins over guys who were in the p4p at one point. Hell, Chocolatito was #1 in the world.
Evander wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 04:49
Lomachenko got knocked down by Jorge Linares.
In 2 fights GGG couldn't knock down Alvarez.
Two unrelated fights with unrelated boxers. It's like saying Mayweather couldn't knock Maidana down but Pacquiao was able to knock Bradley down. It really means nothing.
Add to that up to this point, Alvarez has proven his chin more than Loma.
Crawford should not be ahead of both Lomachenko and Canelo.
Personally I have Lomachenko #1 If you want to argue that Crawford has better wins than Lomachenko, then fine, but if that's your criteria then it places Canelo over Crawford.
Canelo probably deserves to be #1 for beating Golovkin, it's the best win any fighter has had since JMM knocked out Pacquiao.
My top 3 is Lomachenko, Usyk, Canelo... with Golovkin very closely behind in 4th. Had he won even 1 more round on my card on Saturday i'd have him switched places with Canelo.
Crawford is a brilliant fighter but you can't be #1 in the world when you ain't even #1 in your own division.
Mexi-Box wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 08:13
Some horrible lists. How people have Sor Rungvisai not in the top 5 is ridiculous. The man has two wins over guys who were in the p4p at one point. Hell, Chocolatito was #1 in the world.
Mexi-Box wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 08:13
Some horrible lists. How people have Sor Rungvisai not in the top 5 is ridiculous. The man has two wins over guys who were in the p4p at one point. Hell, Chocolatito was #1 in the world.
I don't think Roman was ever higher than 3rd.
The Ring, TBRB and less than a handful of others have Gonzalez at #1..
It was a bit of fresh air, focusing more on the lower weight guys..
Mexi-Box wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 08:13
Some horrible lists. How people have Sor Rungvisai not in the top 5 is ridiculous. The man has two wins over guys who were in the p4p at one point. Hell, Chocolatito was #1 in the world.
I don't think Roman was ever higher than 3rd.
The RING Pound-for-Pound Ratings (January 31st, 2017):
The ESPN panel that rated Roman Gonzalez as being the pound-for-pound best, were: Dan Rafael, Nigel Collins, Joe Cortez, Carlos Narvaez, Bernardo Pilatti, Eric Raskin, Nick Parkinson and Salvador Rodriguez.
These p4p rankings are all a bunch of subjective bull sh*t. The only way to do it to create some sort of complicated set of formulas that ultimately depend on wins and losses of the fighter and his oponents and so on...
Thus boxrec has the right idea, but who knows if their formula is reall as good and comprehensive as one might hope it to be.
klitoris wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 13:20
These p4p rankings are all a bunch of subjective bull sh*t. The only way to do it to create some sort of complicated set of formulas that ultimately depend on wins and losses of the fighter and his oponents and so on...
Thus boxrec has the right idea, but who knows if their formula is reall as good and comprehensive as one might hope it to be.
There really is no definitive method of doing P4P. A lot of Boxing fans ignore it altogether as just bullsh*t, and just focus on the Divisional rankings which is the only thing you can really rank with a legit understanding of where the guys rank amongst their peers.
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 14:25
Same people who had Golovkin winning both fights put him under Canelo in the list. What a BS!
Official results ultimately count more than opinions. No matter how many of them there may be rankings have to reflect official results otherwise you have ridiculous sh*t where everyone ranks their favorites high because he's their favorite.
boxing_rocks wrote: ↑19 Sep 2018, 14:25
Same people who had Golovkin winning both fights put him under Canelo in the list. What a BS!
Official results ultimately count more than opinions. No matter how many of them there may be rankings have to reflect official results otherwise you have ridiculous sh*t where everyone ranks their favorites high because he's their favorite.
I think they were more influenced by DLH owning Ring.
