tobyh5 wrote: ↑11 Oct 2018, 08:10
Joshua has depth and thickness to the resume with a high number of wins against a higher level, but only if you exclude what would be Fury's best two wins, which we can't.
The guy to be number one ranked for me is the guy who has beaten the better guys. I do not care how many, just the better guys and nothing on the record of AJ would stand up to an away win over Wilder. Throw on top beating a fresher Klit and he has to be number one.
Win v win, opponent vs opponent. Fury has the edge, clearly. If this dream unfolded, who would AJ have beaten that is better than the fresher, active Wlad and Wilder??
Beating the best guys in the world trumps beating the "next best guys".
Fresher klitschko? Wlad and fury hardly threw a punch thats why he was fresher,AJ beat a more dangerous Klitschko. On top of this who has wilder fought for you to say he is the best out there? Klitschko beat everyone out there from top to bottom but wilder? No way. AJ's record stands head and shoulders above fury's record at present.
1. I did not say WIlder was the best out there. I said beating that no one on AJ's record was as good.
2. The argument about Klit being fresher has already been argued. The other way of looking at it, is that he was better because he knew AJ was not as good. I am not saying that is my viewpoint, just a different one. But yes, I say he was fresher and no matter the reasoning, he obviously was as a couple years younger and still active
3. AJ's record is head and shoulders above AT PRESENT. But we are talking about if Fury beats WIlder. As said, if that happens, IMO beating the best guys out there is better than beating the next best guys out there.
Anyone with eyes could see Wlad was much improved for the Joshua fight, regardless of the opposition.
How could they see that? What do you mean?
Wlad was clearly better than he was against Fury. He actually came to fight, probably knowing it was his last chance. Plus he didn’t have all the out of the ring issues that were going on during the Fury build-up.
Yep, it’s comparable to froch’s last performance, but even better. He pulled a final great performance out of the bag. He spoke himself about preparing with obsession, he was in tremendous shape, he was putting them together fluidly, moving well, his timing was there. Rolled back the clock.
That level of his performance was what made him able to compete with and almost beat AJ. The stagnant, static and clueless version who showed up listless vs fury would have been rolled over.
i dont think its quite end of story. i think there is legit arguments both sides can make
i wouldve really liked to see fury vs better comeback opponents first, so we could know if hes really actually nearly as good as he was. that wouldve helped to determine how much credit should be given for beating him now after he went off the rails, got with this inexperienced trainer, fought no live bodies in 3 years, etc
tobyh5 wrote: ↑11 Oct 2018, 08:10
Joshua has depth and thickness to the resume with a high number of wins against a higher level, but only if you exclude what would be Fury's best two wins, which we can't.
The guy to be number one ranked for me is the guy who has beaten the better guys. I do not care how many, just the better guys and nothing on the record of AJ would stand up to an away win over Wilder. Throw on top beating a fresher Klit and he has to be number one.
Win v win, opponent vs opponent. Fury has the edge, clearly. If this dream unfolded, who would AJ have beaten that is better than the fresher, active Wlad and Wilder??
Beating the best guys in the world trumps beating the "next best guys".
Fresher klitschko? Wlad and fury hardly threw a punch thats why he was fresher,AJ beat a more dangerous Klitschko. On top of this who has wilder fought for you to say he is the best out there? Klitschko beat everyone out there from top to bottom but wilder? No way. AJ's record stands head and shoulders above fury's record at present.
1. I did not say WIlder was the best out there. I said beating that no one on AJ's record was as good.
2. The argument about Klit being fresher has already been argued. The other way of looking at it, is that he was better because he knew AJ was not as good. I am not saying that is my viewpoint, just a different one. But yes, I say he was fresher and no matter the reasoning, he obviously was as a couple years younger and still active
3. AJ's record is head and shoulders above AT PRESENT. But we are talking about if Fury beats WIlder. As said, if that happens, IMO beating the best guys out there is better than beating the next best guys out there.
You said "beating the best GUYS out there is better than beating the next best thing" so you are saying klitschko and wilder are the best in the world becasue anyone else on furys record isnt the best out there and Id rank the past 5 AJ opponents better than anyone on furys record FACT so they are not the next best thing they are the best in the world by order of the rankings,if the wbc champ doesnt wanna fight the best in the world then whos fault is that? It isnt AJ's and Wilder has chosen to fight Fury cause he thinks it will be an easy fight were as i think fury will box his ears off and make him look silly,similar to calzaghe vs lacey. But record for record id rate AJ no.1 on guys he has fought.
tobyh5 wrote: ↑11 Oct 2018, 08:10
Joshua has depth and thickness to the resume with a high number of wins against a higher level, but only if you exclude what would be Fury's best two wins, which we can't.
The guy to be number one ranked for me is the guy who has beaten the better guys. I do not care how many, just the better guys and nothing on the record of AJ would stand up to an away win over Wilder. Throw on top beating a fresher Klit and he has to be number one.
Win v win, opponent vs opponent. Fury has the edge, clearly. If this dream unfolded, who would AJ have beaten that is better than the fresher, active Wlad and Wilder??
Beating the best guys in the world trumps beating the "next best guys".
Fresher klitschko? Wlad and fury hardly threw a punch thats why he was fresher,AJ beat a more dangerous Klitschko. On top of this who has wilder fought for you to say he is the best out there? Klitschko beat everyone out there from top to bottom but wilder? No way. AJ's record stands head and shoulders above fury's record at present.
Wlad threw more punches against Aj because he could hit him he couldn't hit Fury why can't people accept that?
He had less to lose against Aj aswell
Tyson should of done the honourable thing and gave klitschko the contracted rematch instead of going on a coke and beer bender for 18 months,we would of then seen if klitschko would of done the same to him. Fury did baffle klitschko with movement and he didnt onow what to expect wer as he knew AJ and the build up was all nicey nicey thats why he performed better and threw more punches,fury got in his head in the build up and had outside issues plaguing his training.
Loynesy wrote: ↑11 Oct 2018, 18:50
Without wishing to be overly simplistic, Joshua is clearly number 1 at the moment and Wilder is number 2. I’m not sure how one can logically answer that beating #2 makes you #1.
It certainly sets up a great fight.
Because fury also beat the number 1. Where as AJ beat wlad when he was number 2.
And that doesn't mean poo.
Wlad isn't the number 1 now, AJ is. Wilder is the number 2.
When fury beat wlad he rightly become number 1. He then buggers off on a bender & loses that spot to AJ. So he has to beat AJ again to become number 1.
I don’t see how you can discount Fury beating the number 1 and being the lineal champion. He’s still the 5th ranked HW in the world as it is, beating the number 2 would mean that he’s held every major belt available and puts him in the number 1 spot imo. Joshua would have fought lower ranked opponents and would have won less titles.
Because fury also beat the number 1. Where as AJ beat wlad when he was number 2.
And that doesn't mean poo.
Wlad isn't the number 1 now, AJ is. Wilder is the number 2.
When fury beat wlad he rightly become number 1. He then buggers off on a bender & loses that spot to AJ. So he has to beat AJ again to become number 1.
I don’t see how you can discount Fury beating the number 1 and being the lineal champion. He’s still the 5th ranked HW in the world as it is, beating the number 2 would mean that he’s held every major belt available and puts him in the number 1 spot imo. Joshua would have fought lower ranked opponents and would have won less titles.
I'm not discounting him beating wlad, but reality is that he is currently #5 and wilder #2. So surely to be the number 1 you'd have to beat that guy like when he beat wlad.
His record as it stands is wlad, chisora 1 & 2, hammer, Cunningham. His 5 best wins. AJs last 5 wins were better than 4 of those.
So you can't just say that winning 2 fights make him the instant #1. He'll be #1 if he beats AJ or he feels of wins over other top contenders.
astradamus wrote: ↑12 Oct 2018, 11:05
AJ obviously, AJ won against Whyte, Parker, Breazeale, Povetkin, Martin and so forth.
I can remember Fury claiming Charles Martin was better then AJ was, that's the level Fury is at, he doesn't understand anything about boxing.
Fury says every opponent is gonna beat AJ. It's his way of keeping confidence that AJ is a bum.
disagree with that logic, to me there are obligations to keeping status as top man and not fighting in 2.5 years and not fighting any live bodies in 3 years, while others built strong records, defo makes a case for him no longer being #1
divisions are in flux, no one guy should be an exception and just get frozen at the top
if he beats wilder though, i think you can reasonably argue he has the top 2 wins of any hw, and therefore should be ranked number 1 (not saying this is what id think but imo defo you can make the case for this). but even then id think he and aj would have to fight to determine a true king of the division
For what it's worth I think a peak Fury beats any version of Wladimir Klitschko. That doesn't mean Fury is a better fighter than Wlad, it's rock, paper, scissors i.e. a question of styles. Great champ as he was, he was very formulaic in his approach and not adaptable. He couldn't cope with Fury's movement, couldn't set himself to throw hard shots, couldn't use his height and strength advantage as normal, because against Fury those advantages ceased to exist.
Wilder wouldn't fight that Tyson Fury. He wants the name Tyson Fury on his record and hopes to fight a Fury who hasn't had a fight in three years (don't anybody dare suggest Seferi or Pianeta was a fight or I'll be very unkind about your intelligence or lack thereof), a Fury who is gym-fit as opposed to ring-fit, a Fury lacking the sharp reflexes, stamina, and supreme levels of concentration required to avoid Wilder's right hand for twelve rounds.
When the fight was first mooted, I screamed 'mismatch' because I knew that Seferi and Piano-shifter were not adequate preparation for a murderous puncher like Wilder. I still think that but my attitude has softened and it's a tribute to TF that I can conceive of the possibility of him proving me wrong.
As the great man was wont to say - "He's got two chances: Slim and none".
thechump wrote: ↑11 Oct 2018, 16:35
Fresher klitschko? Wlad and fury hardly threw a punch thats why he was fresher,AJ beat a more dangerous Klitschko. On top of this who has wilder fought for you to say he is the best out there? Klitschko beat everyone out there from top to bottom but wilder? No way. AJ's record stands head and shoulders above fury's record at present.
Wlad threw more punches against Aj because he could hit him he couldn't hit Fury why can't people accept that?
He had less to lose against Aj aswell
Tyson should of done the honourable thing and gave klitschko the contracted rematch instead of going on a coke and beer bender for 18 months,we would of then seen if klitschko would of done the same to him. Fury did baffle klitschko with movement and he didnt onow what to expect wer as he knew AJ and the build up was all nicey nicey thats why he performed better and threw more punches,fury got in his head in the build up and had outside issues plaguing his training.
Yeah but it's not like Fury chose to get depressed and go off the rails though
