What ATG had the easiest opponents and what ATG had the hardest?

[Ikopable]

Monzon's got to be in there for hardest resume, Benvenuti, Griffith x2, & Napoles.

Maybe VItali as easiest, not sure if he counts as an ATG, though...

[Ruthless-RKO]

Mayweather must surely be the king of the easies.

He beat lots of big names, what do you mean by the king of the easies?

Beating them when they're 35-40 means little.

On paper, FMJ has arguably the best resume, but majority of them opponents, after 2009 especially, weren't exactly in their primes.

[Tuan_Jim]

You could probably make that argument for any fighter though. FMM was older than Pac, Cotto, Hatton, Canelo and others so it's a stretch to say he has the weakest resume.

Only one of those guys listed is considered great and he was past it when Mayweather FINALLY dared fight him. Lewis was older than Tyson when they at last fought, but Tyson had been 37-0 undisputed king of the world while a 1-0 Lewis was fumbling around at the bottom of his undercard. Chronological age and ring age are two different things.

Yeah of course but not many fighters have beaten 20+ world champions. How many ATGs did Tyson beat? Or Holmes, or Lewis for that matter, not all ATGs have ATG names on their records.

20+ world champs is silly to cite given the other names mentioned didn't fight in eras with a ridiculous number of titles, and were heavies too so didn't have the luxury of hopping divisions to mug a weak guy with a cheap belt and 'augment' greatness. Bit of a convoluted comparison tbh. Tyson, Holmes and Lewis all pitted themselves against the best in their division, Mayweather could have done the same as he held all the cards yet still he preferred to duck and delay. If you like tons of shiny belts, he's your man. If you're looking for elite opponents in their prime, they're missing as he was too scared to risk his 0 against them.

[Tuan_Jim]

He beat lots of big names, what do you mean by the king of the easies?

Beating them when they're 35-40 means little.

On paper, FMJ has arguably the best resume, but majority of them opponents, after 2009 especially, weren't exactly in their primes.

Exactly they don't stand up to scrutiny

[Controversial]

Only one of those guys listed is considered great and he was past it when Mayweather FINALLY dared fight him. Lewis was older than Tyson when they at last fought, but Tyson had been 37-0 undisputed king of the world while a 1-0 Lewis was fumbling around at the bottom of his undercard. Chronological age and ring age are two different things.

Yeah of course but not many fighters have beaten 20+ world champions. How many ATGs did Tyson beat? Or Holmes, or Lewis for that matter, not all ATGs have ATG names on their records.

20+ world champs is silly to cite given the other names mentioned didn't fight in eras with a ridiculous number of titles, and were heavies too so didn't have the luxury of hopping divisions to mug a weak guy with a cheap belt and 'augment' greatness. Bit of a convoluted comparison tbh. Tyson, Holmes and Lewis all pitted themselves against the best in their division, Mayweather could have done the same as he held all the cards yet still he preferred to duck and delay. If you like tons of shiny belts, he's your man. If you're looking for elite opponents in their prime, they're missing as he was too scared to risk his 0 against them.

But you can break anyones record down and make it look bad. How many ATG fighters beat great fighters that were still considered in their prime? In lots of cases one guy was coming to the end of their career, getting on in years or past their best, that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't a danger anymore though. The guys FMM beat were still 'good' fighters and he beat lots of them. Sure you can argue about the number of titles but even if they weren't title holders they would have still been classed as being amongst the top guys at the time FMM beat them.

Do you consider FMM an ATG?

[Tuan_Jim]

Yeah of course but not many fighters have beaten 20+ world champions. How many ATGs did Tyson beat? Or Holmes, or Lewis for that matter, not all ATGs have ATG names on their records.

20+ world champs is silly to cite given the other names mentioned didn't fight in eras with a ridiculous number of titles, and were heavies too so didn't have the luxury of hopping divisions to mug a weak guy with a cheap belt and 'augment' greatness. Bit of a convoluted comparison tbh. Tyson, Holmes and Lewis all pitted themselves against the best in their division, Mayweather could have done the same as he held all the cards yet still he preferred to duck and delay. If you like tons of shiny belts, he's your man. If you're looking for elite opponents in their prime, they're missing as he was too scared to risk his 0 against them.

But you can break anyones record down and make it look bad. How many ATG fighters beat great fighters that were still considered in their prime? In lots of cases one guy was coming to the end of their career, getting on in years or past their best, that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't a danger anymore though. The guys FMM beat were still 'good' fighters and he beat lots of them. Sure you can argue about the number of titles but even if they weren't title holders they would have still been classed as being amongst the top guys at the time FMM beat them.

Do you consider FMM an ATG?

No. I have no idea how great he is because he avoided his great opponents (and opponents who were not great but risky). I question his heart and guts as I would any fighter who didn't fancy his biggest challenges. He looked good beating good opponents and great opponents who he knew ahead of time were old and past it and no longer a serious threat. Does that amount to greatness?

Roy Jones gets a lot of flak for all his horrible opponents, but at least he agreed to box James Toney--an elite level, extremely dangerous fighter in his prime--in a Superfight of which the outcome was in doubt. Add to that Bernard Hopkins and John Ruiz and you at least have a man who put his neck on the line and has a claim to greatness in the ring, rather than assumed greatness. Mayweather's big wins are more comparable to RJJ's fight with Mike McCallum.

[Controversial]

20+ world champs is silly to cite given the other names mentioned didn't fight in eras with a ridiculous number of titles, and were heavies too so didn't have the luxury of hopping divisions to mug a weak guy with a cheap belt and 'augment' greatness. Bit of a convoluted comparison tbh. Tyson, Holmes and Lewis all pitted themselves against the best in their division, Mayweather could have done the same as he held all the cards yet still he preferred to duck and delay. If you like tons of shiny belts, he's your man. If you're looking for elite opponents in their prime, they're missing as he was too scared to risk his 0 against them.

But you can break anyones record down and make it look bad. How many ATG fighters beat great fighters that were still considered in their prime? In lots of cases one guy was coming to the end of their career, getting on in years or past their best, that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't a danger anymore though. The guys FMM beat were still 'good' fighters and he beat lots of them. Sure you can argue about the number of titles but even if they weren't title holders they would have still been classed as being amongst the top guys at the time FMM beat them.

Do you consider FMM an ATG?

No. I have no idea how great he is because he avoided his great opponents (and opponents who were not great but risky). I question his heart and guts as I would any fighter who didn't fancy his biggest challenges. He looked good beating good opponents and great opponents who he knew ahead of time were old and past it and no longer a serious threat. Does that amount to greatness?

Roy Jones gets a lot of flak for all his horrible opponents, but at least he agreed to box James Toney--an elite level, extremely dangerous fighter in his prime--in a Superfight of which the outcome was in doubt. Add to that Bernard Hopkins and John Ruiz and you at least have a man who put his neck on the line and has a claim to greatness in the ring, rather than assumed greatness. Mayweather's big wins are more comparable to RJJ's fight with Mike McCallum.

So any fighter that doesn’t beat another ATG In their prime isn’t an ATG? I asked the original question about ATGs and you. replied with FMM, so presumably you must have considered him to be one otherwise why mention him?

[Tuan_Jim]

But you can break anyones record down and make it look bad. How many ATG fighters beat great fighters that were still considered in their prime? In lots of cases one guy was coming to the end of their career, getting on in years or past their best, that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't a danger anymore though. The guys FMM beat were still 'good' fighters and he beat lots of them. Sure you can argue about the number of titles but even if they weren't title holders they would have still been classed as being amongst the top guys at the time FMM beat them.

Do you consider FMM an ATG?

No. I have no idea how great he is because he avoided his great opponents (and opponents who were not great but risky). I question his heart and guts as I would any fighter who didn't fancy his biggest challenges. He looked good beating good opponents and great opponents who he knew ahead of time were old and past it and no longer a serious threat. Does that amount to greatness?

Roy Jones gets a lot of flak for all his horrible opponents, but at least he agreed to box James Toney--an elite level, extremely dangerous fighter in his prime--in a Superfight of which the outcome was in doubt. Add to that Bernard Hopkins and John Ruiz and you at least have a man who put his neck on the line and has a claim to greatness in the ring, rather than assumed greatness. Mayweather's big wins are more comparable to RJJ's fight with Mike McCallum.

So any fighter that doesn’t beat another ATG In their prime isn’t an ATG? I asked the original question about ATGs and you. replied with FMM, so presumably you must have considered him to be one otherwise why mention him?

No, but any fighter who avoids ATGs, and retires without having fought any ATGs in their prime, when he had multiple opportunities to do so, isn't an ATG.

The reason I mentioned him is because people generally do consider him an ATG--wrongly in my opinion, for all the above reasons.

[Controversial]

No. I have no idea how great he is because he avoided his great opponents (and opponents who were not great but risky). I question his heart and guts as I would any fighter who didn't fancy his biggest challenges. He looked good beating good opponents and great opponents who he knew ahead of time were old and past it and no longer a serious threat. Does that amount to greatness?

Roy Jones gets a lot of flak for all his horrible opponents, but at least he agreed to box James Toney--an elite level, extremely dangerous fighter in his prime--in a Superfight of which the outcome was in doubt. Add to that Bernard Hopkins and John Ruiz and you at least have a man who put his neck on the line and has a claim to greatness in the ring, rather than assumed greatness. Mayweather's big wins are more comparable to RJJ's fight with Mike McCallum.

So any fighter that doesn’t beat another ATG In their prime isn’t an ATG? I asked the original question about ATGs and you. replied with FMM, so presumably you must have considered him to be one otherwise why mention him?

No, but any fighter who avoids ATGs, and retires without having fought any ATGs in their prime, when he had multiple opportunities to do so, isn't an ATG.

The reason I mentioned him is because people generally do consider him an ATG--wrongly in my opinion, for all the above reasons.

So would you consider Tyson an ATG?

[IKSRTFO]

Easiest, Julio Caesar Chaves Sr.

[Tuan_Jim]

So any fighter that doesn’t beat another ATG In their prime isn’t an ATG? I asked the original question about ATGs and you. replied with FMM, so presumably you must have considered him to be one otherwise why mention him?

No, but any fighter who avoids ATGs, and retires without having fought any ATGs in their prime, when he had multiple opportunities to do so, isn't an ATG.

The reason I mentioned him is because people generally do consider him an ATG--wrongly in my opinion, for all the above reasons.

So would you consider Tyson an ATG?

Yes. And I look forward to seeing what grasping "gotcha" you think I've walked into.

[paddy chavez]

Easiest, Julio Caesar Chaves Sr.

He had a few tough fighters like Rosario, Taylor and Whitaker but yeah a few weaker ones too

[paddy chavez]

Whitaker doesn't have to many class fighters , buddy mcgirt probably th best if you take into account that Chavez got beat a few months after fighting Pernell and was past it and Oscar beat by Whitaker

[Controversial]

No, but any fighter who avoids ATGs, and retires without having fought any ATGs in their prime, when he had multiple opportunities to do so, isn't an ATG.

The reason I mentioned him is because people generally do consider him an ATG--wrongly in my opinion, for all the above reasons.

So would you consider Tyson an ATG?

Yes. And I look forward to seeing what grasping "gotcha" you think I've walked into.

Haha I wasn't even thinking of that, I also consider Tyson an ATG but I can't think of any ATGs that he beat unless you want to include a blown up LHW (Spinks) who had one fight in two years prior to fighting Tyson. Holmes and Holyfield were arguably past their bests when Tyson fought them.

[Tuan_Jim]

So would you consider Tyson an ATG?

Yes. And I look forward to seeing what grasping "gotcha" you think I've walked into.

Haha I wasn't even thinking of that, I also consider Tyson an ATG but I can't think of any ATGs that he beat unless you want to include a blown up LHW (Spinks). Holmes and Holyfield were arguably past their bests when he fought them.

I know what you mean but Spinks was lineal champ, had ended the long reign of Larry Holmes (who turned out to have ten years left in championship class!) and chopped down a towering puncher in Cooney. Those are solid heavyweight credentials. He may have been blown away, but before the first bell that was a genuine Superfight between two undefeated fighters in their prime.

Now I'm trying to imagine Tyson with a Mayweather type attitude. I suppose it would be something like having won the WBC belt from Berbick he sidesteps Bonecrusher and Tucker because they're 6'5'' and can punch. He defers Michael Spinks and instead seizes on Francesco Damiani and his brand new WBO belt, but handicaps him by making the 230lb Francesco fight at 219lb. He then retires, lets everyone else fight it out, and comes back a couple of years later once Spinks is 35 and meets him with the stipulation they use a 16x16 ring. He then knocks out Hulk Hogan and retires TBE.

[chrisjs1985]

Monzon's got to be in there for hardest resume, Benvenuti, Griffith x2, & Napoles.

Maybe VItali as easiest, not sure if he counts as an ATG, though...

Monzon was unquestionably great but his is not a list of opponents I'd associate with the hardest. I know it's easy to nitpick but the reality was that Napoles was grossly undersized at middleweight (he was a lightweight fighting as a welterweight). Benvenuti and Griffith were also very much on the downside of their careers at that time too. Monzon does have an excellent resume though and I'd be tempted to say his biggest challenges were arguably Rodrigo Valdez and perhaps even Bennie Briscoe though obviously those guys aren't as good names as the greats you mentioned.

I'd consider Monzon among the top 25 boxers in history pound for pound.

[IKSRTFO]

Easiest, Julio Caesar Chaves Sr.

He had a few tough fighters like Rosario, Taylor and Whitaker but yeah a few weaker ones too

Those are the toughest he had. He arguable lost to Whitaker so for an ATG who many say is the greatest Mexican fighter, his opposition isn't as good as Marquez or Canelo.

[Controversial]

Yes. And I look forward to seeing what grasping "gotcha" you think I've walked into.

Haha I wasn't even thinking of that, I also consider Tyson an ATG but I can't think of any ATGs that he beat unless you want to include a blown up LHW (Spinks). Holmes and Holyfield were arguably past their bests when he fought them.

I know what you mean but Spinks was lineal champ, had ended the long reign of Larry Holmes (who turned out to have ten years left in championship class!) and chopped down a towering puncher in Cooney. Those are solid heavyweight credentials. He may have been blown away, but before the first bell that was a genuine Superfight between two undefeated fighters in their prime.

Now I'm trying to imagine Tyson with a Mayweather type attitude. I suppose it would be something like having won the WBC belt from Berbick he sidesteps Bonecrusher and Tucker because they're 6'5'' and can punch. He defers Michael Spinks and instead seizes on Francesco Damiani and his brand new WBO belt, but handicaps him by making the 230lb Francesco fight at 219lb. He then retires, lets everyone else fight it out, and comes back a couple of years later once Spinks is 35 and fights with the stipulation they use a 16x16 ring. Having won that, he then knocks out Hulk Hogan and retires TBE.

Didn't FMM beat lineal champs too? Holmes was on the slide when Spinks beat him (plenty don't think he deserved the win either) and he resume at HW wasn't great. Spinks had one fight in two years before fighting Tyson and that was against Cooney who had been equally inactive.

Most fighters pick and choose to a certain extent. Remember Tyson was stripped of his belt for not fighting Lewis. Foreman swerved Lewis too. SRL fought LaLonde at 168lb but the LHW belt was on the line. Ali took the easy route of fighting Spinks. RJJ moved the HW to fight Ruiz, the easiest opponent at HW and then dropped back down in weight rather than fighting guys like Lewis. The list goes on.

[Ambling Alp II]

For best I would go with Robinson, Greb, Langford, and Moore. Ali, Ray Leonard, Armstrong, and Charles would be up there.

Gets a little tricky with the easiest. As already mentioned, maybe a guy really isn't an ATG if his competition was not that good. The tag "ATG" can mean a very different thing to different people. I don't think Mayweather's was the easiest, but it is far below what some people might think.

Anyway, here some who have to be considered:
Jimmy Wilde, Khasai Galaxy, and Aaron Pryor.

Pryor fought Cervantes and Arguello (2x). However, both were not as their best, though still pretty good. After that, there is a major dropoff.

[chrisjs1985]

Easiest, Julio Caesar Chaves Sr.

He had a few tough fighters like Rosario, Taylor and Whitaker but yeah a few weaker ones too

Those are the toughest he had. He arguable lost to Whitaker so for an ATG who many say is the greatest Mexican fighter, his opposition isn't as good as Marquez or Canelo.

A lot of Chavez' greatness is built on just how damn good he was as a fighter and the depth of his resume in addition to career accomplishments. Sure, he doesn't hold a win over a fighter one would consider great but sometimes this happens. These dominant guys like him perhaps stopped one or more guys from ever being great.

Re: Canelo I am not as sold on his competition. The best he's faced have been Lara (which I felt he lost and didn't re-match), Mayweather (which he was shut out by it was a catch-weight and he was a pup) and an old Golovkin (who I felt beat him twice) I feel the rest is just some "names" here and there but nothing special. I think Chavez faced tougher foes than that and fought more often. Marquez though did fight a lot of hard fights, opponents and styles and is as proven as any recent fighter.

[IKSRTFO]

He had a few tough fighters like Rosario, Taylor and Whitaker but yeah a few weaker ones too

Those are the toughest he had. He arguable lost to Whitaker so for an ATG who many say is the greatest Mexican fighter, his opposition isn't as good as Marquez or Canelo.

A lot of Chavez' greatness is built on just how damn good he was as a fighter and the depth of his resume in addition to career accomplishments. Sure, he doesn't hold a win over a fighter one would consider great but sometimes this happens. These dominant guys like him perhaps stopped one or more guys from ever being great.

Re: Canelo I am not as sold on his competition. The best he's faced have been Lara (which I felt he lost and didn't re-match), Mayweather (which he was shut out by it was a catch-weight and he was a pup) and an old Golovkin (who I felt beat him twice) I feel the rest is just some "names" here and there but nothing special. I think Chavez faced tougher foes than that and fought more often. Marquez though did fight a lot of hard fights, opponents and styles and is as proven as any recent fighter.

That's the point of the thread. The question was which ATG had the easiest opponents, not which one was less deserving because of talent, nor which ones beat the easier opponents and loss to the harder ones. Chavez for an ATG who some say is top 15 all time lack the opponents even De La Hoya had, win or lose.

[Abradolf Lincler]

What do wins and losses matter? The question is simply which ATG FACED the best/worst opposition.

[cfang]

In terms of hardest, my first thought was Greb. He beat 18 champions in the days of one champ per division and no light or super divisions either. He's the greatest fighter of all time i think

Archie moore takes some beating though with

Muhammad Ali
Willie Pastrano
Floyd Patterson
Rocky Marciano
Bobo Olson
Teddy Yarosz
Ezzard Charles x 3
Joey Maxim x 3
Harold Johnson x 5
Charley Burley
Bob Satterfield
Cocoa Kid
Holman Williams x 2
Yvon Durelle x 2
Jimmy Bivins x 4
Buddy Turman x 2
Nino Valdez x 2
Charley Doc Williams x 3
Oakland Billy Smith x 2

Many P has an incredible list of opponents too

Timothy Bradley Jr
Floyd Mayweather Jr
Juan Manuel Marquez
Shane Mosley
Antonio Margarito
Miguel Cotto
Ricky Hatton
Oscar De La Hoya
Marco Antonio Barrera
Erik Morales

Worst? Well Marciano's list is really poor up to when he won the title apart from louis. Dempsey's list is pretty poor too really.

[Caractacus]

Joe Louis had real easy opponnets (aka The Bum of the month "when he became HW champion compared to who he fought on the way up.
He had tougher opponents after WW II however.
Walcott,Charles,Marciano etc)

[Cojimar 1946]

I thought Tyson ditched a belt to avoid fighting Lewis in 1996