Stanley Ketchel-October.15 .1910-Conway Missouri

[Caractacus]

That is when and were Stanley Ketchel was shot and killed at the "Dickerson Ranch in Webster County Missouri..
Has anyone here actually visited the spot were it happened and is there some type of Historical marker at the location ?
The 860 acre ranch was approx 45 miles from Springfield Missouri.
It was located on Osage Branch of the Gasconade River in Northeastern Webster County.

[Caractacus]

check out this in-depth article from 1993.

https://www.thelibrary.org/lochist/peri ... ow603d.htm

[Chuck1052]

Stanley Ketchel was shot and killed during 1910, not 1909.

- Chuck Johnston

[Caractacus]

aww man,I was just going to correct that because I was thinking at the same time of the fight he had with Jack Johnson
which was on October 16. 1909.
( so he was murdered a day before the 1st anniversary of that fight-a coincidence ?)

[Caractacus]

Here are some high-lights of rounds One,Two,Eight,Ten and Twelve
( curiously missing is round 7 which was reportedly Ketchels best round in the entire fight when he really did have Johnson hurt by a right hand but Johnson remained on his feet )

[HomicideHenry]

If one looks at the post-Ketchel era of middleweights, one can see had he NOT been murdered he could have easily remained the champion of the world for about a decade. The division was so weak post-Ketchel that it didn't really pick up until the mid-late 20's when guys like Greb and Flowers and Walker started coming around in 1923-1929.

Frank Klaus, who Ketchel embarassed, became the "interim champion" after beating Billy Papke whom Ketchel defeated three times--- and George Chip who defeated Klaus was nothing special--- and neither was Al McCoy and Mike O'Dowd or Johnny Wilson.

[bwu]

Ketchel was an ATG and more than that, a force of nature. But I don't believe he could've hung on as long as you think.

The few accounts I've seen of the Klaus fight make it seem like the latter did okay. Sam Langford certainly gave a good accounting of himself in their 1910 fight and would've been a very tough challenger. The last Papke fight was a very close one from what I've read.

Add to this the beating that Ketchel took from Jack Johnson and a hard living lifestyle. Combine it all and I think at some point well before the decade mark you reference, Ketchel would've lost. He still would've made it tough, but somebody would've caught him.

[Caractacus]

yeah,and I also read somewhere that at some point Stanley Ketchel had contracted syphillis and had become addicted to opium (which was known in the boxing trade as a "double-whammy")
So how would that have possibly affected his boxing abilities is unknown at that point (as im not a doctor).

[klompton]

If one looks at the post-Ketchel era of middleweights, one can see had he NOT been murdered he could have easily remained the champion of the world for about a decade. The division was so weak post-Ketchel that it didn't really pick up until the mid-late 20's when guys like Greb and Flowers and Walker started coming around in 1923-1929.

Frank Klaus, who Ketchel embarassed, became the "interim champion" after beating Billy Papke whom Ketchel defeated three times--- and George Chip who defeated Klaus was nothing special--- and neither was Al McCoy and Mike O'Dowd or Johnny Wilson.

This the most bass ackwards post ever. First, Ketchel embarrassed Klaus? No. Klaus beat Ketchel and sent him to the hospital. Look it up. The “post Ketchel” era was much stronger than the era Ketchel reigned over. The only real high quality contender during Ketchels reign was Papke who brutalky stopped him once and who a lot of people thought deserved the nod in their fourth fight. Post Ketchel you had McGoorty, Clabby, Gibbons, Dillon, Greb, Darcy, Langford, Houck, etc. all men who were at least as talented as Papke and I would argue moreso and all were middleweight contenders within this ten year period you think Ketchel would have dominated had he not died. There is also the inconvenient fact that Ketchel, by his own admission, was a physical wreck when he was murdered and planned to retire. In the last interview before his death he complained of terrible headaches that plagued him after the loss to Johnson and stated he had not fully recovered from that KO. There is also some belief that he was an opium addict at this point. The loss to Klaus isnt the only thing pointing to a dip in his abilities or a difficulty with the emerging talent. He was also involved in trying to fix the results of fights he had scheduled more than once prior to going to Missouri. So the fact that he wasnt dominant at the highest level (which extended to one man: Papke), his condition was suspect even to himself, and the talent that was beginning to arrive on the scene was better than he had experienced before, no, I dont think he would have been dominant. In fact, I think his early death prevented people from seeing his inevitable fall which has contributed to his legend. Like if Tyson died before the Douglas fight.

[Caractacus]

BTW There has been about 5 or more books written about Stanley Ketchel over the past 10 -15years.
which one is the best ?

[Caractacus]

Anyone here ever been to Conway Missouri yet ? ?

[pound per pound]

Here are some high-lights of rounds One,Two,Eight,Ten and Twelve
( curiously missing is round 7 which was reportedly Ketchels best round in the entire fight when he really did have Johnson hurt by a right hand but Johnson remained on his feet )

Those at ringside said Johnson looked dazed after getting up from the knockdown in the 12th. While not a skilled lad, I think Ketchel had more than just one moment of success in the fight, as you are saying.

[Caractacus]

Can you imagine how much even more pristine and tranquil Conway Missouri was a hundred years earlier ?

[Caractacus]

in stark contrast to this (infamous)town in Missouri (Skidmore) about a 4 hour drive further North.

[Onetimeonly]

If one looks at the post-Ketchel era of middleweights, one can see had he NOT been murdered he could have easily remained the champion of the world for about a decade. The division was so weak post-Ketchel that it didn't really pick up until the mid-late 20's when guys like Greb and Flowers and Walker started coming around in 1923-1929.

Frank Klaus, who Ketchel embarassed, became the "interim champion" after beating Billy Papke whom Ketchel defeated three times--- and George Chip who defeated Klaus was nothing special--- and neither was Al McCoy and Mike O'Dowd or Johnny Wilson.

Mike odowd is very underappreciated.

[Caractacus]

On this day (October 15th 1910(110 years ago)
Stanley Ketchel was shot (with a .22 calibre rifle)
by the man whose Girlfriend was serving him his breakfast.

[Caractacus]

It was reported that whenever Stanley Ketchel became "fighting drunk"
In order to calm him down his manager Wilson Mizner used to recite to him a poem from Rudyard's Kipling's
BARRACK ROOM BALLADS AND OTHER VERSES AND OTHER POEMS (but without an English accent of course)
(originaly published in 1892)

[Duran1970]

Here are some high-lights of rounds One,Two,Eight,Ten and Twelve
( curiously missing is round 7 which was reportedly Ketchels best round in the entire fight when he really did have Johnson hurt by a right hand but Johnson remained on his feet )

Who did these voice over on these old fight films? Freakin terrible.

Film says ketchel came in at 160.. but I've seen
170, 171, 170.25, 165, from different sources.. anyone else seen different weights than listed

[Caractacus]

there was an entire thread on here a few years ago about the Johnson vrs Ketchel fight.
I will try and bump it up again.

[Caractacus]

BTW, yesterday was also the anniversary of Stanley Ketchel's mysterious death.

[klompton]

What is mysterious about it? He was murdered by two bottom feeders who were attempting to rob him. This was all plainly spelled out in the trial.

[Caractacus]

It may not be, but this place surely is.

[AngryGoon38]

Here are some high-lights of rounds One,Two,Eight,Ten and Twelve
( curiously missing is round 7 which was reportedly Ketchels best round in the entire fight when he really did have Johnson hurt by a right hand but Johnson remained on his feet )

Who did these voice over on these old fight films? Freakin terrible.

Film says ketchel came in at 160.. but I've seen
170, 171, 170.25, 165, from different sources.. anyone else seen different weights than listed

I've heard 170, but that was while wearing heavy clothes and work-boots.

[pound per pound]

Here are some high-lights of rounds One,Two,Eight,Ten and Twelve
( curiously missing is round 7 which was reportedly Ketchels best round in the entire fight when he really did have Johnson hurt by a right hand but Johnson remained on his feet )

Any time films don't have rounds in them, some one does not want to show something. The round isn't missing by accident.

There is a lot of talk of the knockdowns and allegations of a fixed fight, ( After ed death of course ) but it should be noted the press reported a visible welt on Johnson ( round 7 or 8 ) and reports Johnson being dazed when the fight ended.

This was no fixed fight. Kechel despite being a middle weight could hit. I don't think he could box well yet he landed occasionally and we saw the effects , or rather they were edited out.

[Caractacus]

Anyone here been to Conway Missouri yet ??