Charley Burley vs Ray Robinson @ 160lbs

[James9753]

Who wins this historic match up at 160lbs?

[scorpio83]

Charley Burley was a threat to Sugar Ray Robinson at middleweight and it would be a competitive fight. Even though as great as Burley was, Robinson would manage to score the quicker jabs and combinations through 15 rounds to take a decision. Burley would make the fight closer during that fight with his quick jabs and sharp combinations of his own.

[Cojimar 1946]

It's too bad we don't have more footage of Burley, the Oakland Billy Smith fight is the only bout I am aware of on film. Which of Robinson's opponents is closest to Burley stylistically?

[APerno]

I don't think Burley beats Robinson at any weight. --- I do think a Burley - Kid Gavilan fight would have been a great fight to watch but the timing of their careers wasn't right.

[goose 5]

The late Dave Anderson told me Burley's name never came up even once during all the time that Robinson and Anderson worked together on their book.

To me, Robinson versus Burley is the ultimate dream fight. I hate to say it, but I have to conclude that Robinson ducked Burley.

[APerno]

The late Dave Anderson told me Burley's name never came up even once during all the time that Robinson and Anderson worked together on their book.

To me, Robinson versus Burley is the ultimate dream fight. I hate to say it, but I have to conclude that Robinson ducked Burley.

I can't agree. Charley Burley was never in a position to be ducked for a title shot. When SRR became WW champion Burley was already campaigning at MW. When Tony Zale returned home form the War Burley was ranked second by The Ring behind Holman Williams who had that summer ('45) beaten Burley by a UD in Buffalo. When Zale chose to fight the popular Garziano in '46 it was top ranked Holman Williams he ducked not Charley Burley.

Charley Burley did indeed get screwed, he got screwed by the Second World War. When Burley was at his best in'43 through '45 all the titles were on hold, by the time the Zale-Garziano trilogy was over ('48) Burley was no longer a ranked fighter.

It comes as no surprise there was no discussion in SRR's camp regarding Burley, Burley was a ranked MW while SRR was WW champ.

Charley Burley's main problem was that never chose to be a New York area fighter, fighting in New York only twice in a very long career. Burley's fought mainly in Pittsburgh, New Orleans and then when he was at his best he fought exclusively on the West Coast. Burley's management was terrible (TERRIBLE!) he was never properly positioned.

There is no validity to say that SRR ducked Charley Burley, Burley wasn't even a WW when Robinson was champion and Burley wasn't even ranked when Robinson became MW champ.

Back then the live gate was everything and Burley's decision not to fight in the New York area made him a non-draw for a big fight in the east. Burley was a great fighter but he was never a viable contender; fighting Burley was a waste of a payday for any popular fighter, that's why no one bother to fight him.

[Ambling Alp II]

Maybe it should have occurred to Anderson to ask him about Burley. They were ranked in the same weight class for just one year. He didn't duck him. There is nothing whatsoever to support this.

[Cojimar 1946]

I believe a fight was actually planned for 1946 but Robinson pulled out demanding more money.

[Chuck1052]

The late Dave Anderson told me Burley's name never came up even once during all the time that Robinson and Anderson worked together on their book.

To me, Robinson versus Burley is the ultimate dream fight. I hate to say it, but I have to conclude that Robinson ducked Burley.

I can't agree. Charley Burley was never in a position to be ducked for a title shot. When SRR became WW champion Burley was already campaigning at MW. When Tony Zale returned home form the War Burley was ranked second by The Ring behind Holman Williams who had that summer ('45) beaten Burley by a UD in Buffalo. When Zale chose to fight the popular Garziano in '46 it was top ranked Holman Williams he ducked not Charley Burley.

Charley Burley did indeed get screwed, he got screwed by the Second World War. When Burley was at his best in'43 through '45 all the titles were on hold, by the time the Zale-Garziano trilogy was over ('48) Burley was no longer a ranked fighter.

It comes as no surprise there was no discussion in SRR's camp regarding Burley, Burley was a ranked MW while SRR was WW champ.

Charley Burley's main problem was that never chose to be a New York area fighter, fighting in New York only twice in a very long career. Burley's fought mainly in Pittsburgh, New Orleans and then when he was at his best he fought exclusively on the West Coast. Burley's management was terrible (TERRIBLE!) he was never properly positioned.

There is no validity to say that SRR ducked Charley Burley, Burley wasn't even a WW when Robinson was champion and Burley wasn't even ranked when Robinson became MW champ.

Back then the live gate was everything and Burley's decision not to fight in the New York area made him a non-draw for a big fight in the east. Burley was a great fighter but he was never a viable contender; fighting Burley was a waste of a payday for any popular fighter, that's why no one bother to fight him.

After originally thinking that Charley Burley's managers were far less than stellar, I have changed my mind after learning more about them over the last few months. There isn't any question that Burley was great fighter with a lot of ability, good punching power and plenty of boxing skills. A devoted, likable family man, Burley had a terrific work ethic while training for a fight or holding down a job.

For all of his ability and accomplishments in the ring, Burley had a fighting style that was considered boring by many fans, promoters and matchmakers. It also didn't help that far too many of his bouts were considered terrible or unsatisfactory. As a result, Burley never became much of a gate attraction, especially for a fighter with his ability and stature. It is little wonder that many matchmakers and promoters appear to have gone out of their way to not have Burley fight for them.

The number of significant American boxing venues in which Burley never had a bout is staggering. They included Madison Square Garden, the Polo Grounds, Yankee Stadium, Chicago Stadium, Comiskey Park, the Olympia, Briggs Stadium. the Olympic Auditorium, Gilmore Stadium, Cleveland Arena, Shibe Park and Braves Field. He fought in New York City and Chicago only one time each. Among the cities he never had a bout in were Detroit and Cleveland.

Under such circumstances, trying to get bouts, especially lucrative ones, for Burley would be a very tough task even for a top manager. Phil Goldstein managed Burley from 1936 to 1940. During that time, Burley became a welterweight contender. Luke Carney, the longtime manager of Fritzie Zivic, managed Burley for a short time during 1941. Tommy O'Loughlin, a veteran boxing man, managed Burley for several years beginning in late 1941 or early 1942. Charley Rose, Jersey Jones and Lew Burston, all veteran boxing men, managed Burley during the period from 1946 to 1948.

- Chuck Johnston

[APerno]

The late Dave Anderson told me Burley's name never came up even once during all the time that Robinson and Anderson worked together on their book.

To me, Robinson versus Burley is the ultimate dream fight. I hate to say it, but I have to conclude that Robinson ducked Burley.

I can't agree. Charley Burley was never in a position to be ducked for a title shot. When SRR became WW champion Burley was already campaigning at MW. When Tony Zale returned home form the War Burley was ranked second by The Ring behind Holman Williams who had that summer ('45) beaten Burley by a UD in Buffalo. When Zale chose to fight the popular Garziano in '46 it was top ranked Holman Williams he ducked not Charley Burley.

Charley Burley did indeed get screwed, he got screwed by the Second World War. When Burley was at his best in'43 through '45 all the titles were on hold, by the time the Zale-Garziano trilogy was over ('48) Burley was no longer a ranked fighter.

It comes as no surprise there was no discussion in SRR's camp regarding Burley, Burley was a ranked MW while SRR was WW champ.

Charley Burley's main problem was that never chose to be a New York area fighter, fighting in New York only twice in a very long career. Burley's fought mainly in Pittsburgh, New Orleans and then when he was at his best he fought exclusively on the West Coast. Burley's management was terrible (TERRIBLE!) he was never properly positioned.

There is no validity to say that SRR ducked Charley Burley, Burley wasn't even a WW when Robinson was champion and Burley wasn't even ranked when Robinson became MW champ.

Back then the live gate was everything and Burley's decision not to fight in the New York area made him a non-draw for a big fight in the east. Burley was a great fighter but he was never a viable contender; fighting Burley was a waste of a payday for any popular fighter, that's why no one bother to fight him.

After originally thinking that Charley Burley's managers were far less than stellar, I have changed my mind after learning more about them over the last few months. There isn't any question that Burley was great fighter with a lot of ability, good punching power and plenty of boxing skills. A devoted, likable family man, Burley had a terrific work ethic while training for a fight or holding down a job.

For all of his ability and accomplishments in the ring, Burley had a fighting style that was considered boring by many fans, promoters and matchmakers. It also didn't help that far too many of his bouts were considered terrible or unsatisfactory. As a result, Burley never became much of a gate attraction, especially for a fighter with his ability and stature. It is little wonder that many matchmakers and promoters appear to have gone out of their way to not have Burley fight for them.

The number of significant American boxing venues in which Burley never had a bout is staggering. They included Madison Square Garden, the Polo Grounds, Yankee Stadium, Chicago Stadium, Comiskey Park, the Olympia, Briggs Stadium. the Olympic Auditorium, Gilmore Stadium, Cleveland Arena, Shibe Park and Braves Field. He fought in New York City and Chicago only one time each. Among the cities he never had a bout in were Detroit and Cleveland.

Under such circumstances, trying to get bouts, especially lucrative ones, for Burley would be a very tough task even for a top manager. Phil Goldstein managed Burley from 1936 to 1940. During that time, Burley became a welterweight contender. Luke Carney, the longtime manager of Fritzie Zivic, managed Burley for a short time during 1941. Tommy O'Loughlin, a veteran boxing man, managed Burley for several years beginning in late 1941 or early 1942. Charley Rose, Jersey Jones and Lew Burston, all veteran boxing men, managed Burley during the period from 1946 to 1948.

- Chuck Johnston

Thanks for the post. I guess I am guilty of a rush to judgement against his management; I was perplexed as to why such a talented fighter wasn't fighting in the New York area. I noticed you mentioned that Zivic's manager worked with Burley at one point, I remember reading once that Zivic was surprised to discover that he at one time was part owner of Burley's contract, which is kind of odd in itself.

I noticed that Holman Williams didn't fight in the New York area much either, all though he did have several fights at MSG and did tend to fight in what looks to be bigger venues (cities) than Burley but he too never got a shot at a title as well which also seems just as unfair. (He did get to contend for the Colored WW and LHW titles.)

[goose 5]

Champions aren't the only ones to duck fighters. As early as 1942 a bout between Robinson and Burley was talked about in the media. A Burley bio has a cartoon of fighters jumping out of a ring to avoid Burley; Robinson is one of the fighters depicted in the newspaper cartoon.

Eddie Futch and Ray Arcel said on record that Robinson ducked Burley. To be fair, Burley was quoted as saying if the situation was reversed he would have avoided Robinson.