Rocky Marciano vs Deontay Wilder

[Controversial]

Wilder has weighed in the 220s for most of his fights. The last one he weighed 214. How many heavyweights are there that weigh 214 anymore? Yet, the one guy who does not weigh a ton just happens to be 40-0, 39 kos and has been outweighed in his last 18 fights. Think about that.

Roy Jones was the last under 200 to fight for the title. He won.
Spinks weighed 200 when he beat Holmes.
We keep hearing that the lighter guys have no chance. Yet what actually has happened?

Yes heavyweights have gotton bigger. Instead of just assuming that bigger is better we should ask, should they do that? The answer so far has been for the most part, no.

Once again I'm not saying weight is the be all and end all and I'm not saying bigger is always better. Yes Wilder is light in comparison to others today but he carries no fat and the difference is he has the height, reach and power to pose other dangers.

Roy Jones was 5'11" with a 74" reach.
John Ruiz was 6'2" with a 77" reach

Spinks was 6'2.5" with a 76" reach
Holmes was 6'3" with a 81" reach

Physically there wasn't a lot in it. What Jones and Spinks had in common was they had combinations of fast hands, good boxing skills and movement, thats what won them the fights, not because that there were marginally smaller. Styles make fights. If Jones was such a good HW why did he not stay at HW where the big money was?

Marciano didn't have fast hands or good movement, his one strategy in every fight was to stand in front of his opponent and hit them until they fell. Thats fine when your opponent is physically weaker or of a similar size to you. Not such a good game plan when every physical advantage, weight and power is on your opponents side.

Marciano averaged 186.5lbs (13.3 stone) in his title fights, Wilder has averaged 223.6lbs (15.10 stone). When that is coupled with a 10" height advantage and 15" reach advantage, faster hands and a bigger punch the fight looks a lot tougher and any advantages Marciano would have would become less significant.

Many HWs of the older years would be todays CWs. How many CWs have successfully gone on to have successful HW careers. Only Holyfield. I'm discounting Haye as he failed at the top level, many say he wasn't big enough to compete with Klitschko.

How many short and light HWs are successful at the top level today. None, why is that?

Makes you wonder how Mike Tyson disarmed all those big guys, given that apparently it's impossible.

Tyson, 5'10'', 71'' reach, stubby little guy, not only outjabbed but also repeatedly got inside:

Green 6'5'', 82'' reach
Ribalta 6'5'', 80'' reach
Bonecrusher 6'5'', 82'' reach
Tucker 6'5'', 82'' reach
Biggs 6'5'', 80'' reach
Williams 6'4'', 85'' reach

Again you're missing the point by bringing up examples that are not comparable. Tyson had other attributes that made up for his lack of height, attributes Marciano never had. Like having possibly the fastest hands in HW history, true one punch KO power in either hand, good head movement and great combination punching. Also he had the fear factor which won him a lot of fights without even throwing a punch. Plus he wasn't 13 stone, he was built like a tank. Bit of a silly comparison to be fair.

[jamamb]

tyson was quite a bit bigger then rock, same height, but around 35-40 pounds heavier and not in fat. longer reach too. and way way faster.

even then with those comparisons none are quite the disparities rock would have vs wilder either

[Tuan_Jim]

Once again I'm not saying weight is the be all and end all and I'm not saying bigger is always better. Yes Wilder is light in comparison to others today but he carries no fat and the difference is he has the height, reach and power to pose other dangers.

Roy Jones was 5'11" with a 74" reach.
John Ruiz was 6'2" with a 77" reach

Spinks was 6'2.5" with a 76" reach
Holmes was 6'3" with a 81" reach

Physically there wasn't a lot in it. What Jones and Spinks had in common was they had combinations of fast hands, good boxing skills and movement, thats what won them the fights, not because that there were marginally smaller. Styles make fights. If Jones was such a good HW why did he not stay at HW where the big money was?

Marciano didn't have fast hands or good movement, his one strategy in every fight was to stand in front of his opponent and hit them until they fell. Thats fine when your opponent is physically weaker or of a similar size to you. Not such a good game plan when every physical advantage, weight and power is on your opponents side.

Marciano averaged 186.5lbs (13.3 stone) in his title fights, Wilder has averaged 223.6lbs (15.10 stone). When that is coupled with a 10" height advantage and 15" reach advantage, faster hands and a bigger punch the fight looks a lot tougher and any advantages Marciano would have would become less significant.

Many HWs of the older years would be todays CWs. How many CWs have successfully gone on to have successful HW careers. Only Holyfield. I'm discounting Haye as he failed at the top level, many say he wasn't big enough to compete with Klitschko.

How many short and light HWs are successful at the top level today. None, why is that?

Makes you wonder how Mike Tyson disarmed all those big guys, given that apparently it's impossible.

Tyson, 5'10'', 71'' reach, stubby little guy, not only outjabbed but also repeatedly got inside:

Green 6'5'', 82'' reach
Ribalta 6'5'', 80'' reach
Bonecrusher 6'5'', 82'' reach
Tucker 6'5'', 82'' reach
Biggs 6'5'', 80'' reach
Williams 6'4'', 85'' reach

Again you're missing the point by bringing up examples that are not comparable. Tyson had other attributes that made up for his lack of height, attributes Marciano never had. Like having possibly the fastest hands in HW history, true one punch KO power in either hand, good head movement and great combination punching. Also he had the fear factor which won him a lot of fights without even throwing a punch. Plus he wasn't 13 stone, he was built like a tank. Bit of a silly comparison to be fair.

I was providing a high profile example of a short stubby guy handling big long rangy guys, which is apparently an impossible feat. The Deontay Wilder presented in this thread bears no relation to the Deontay Wilder who boxes in the ring, case in point: your constant reference to his reach which in the real world he doesn't use very well, leading to near disasters versus poor opponents.

[Controversial]

Makes you wonder how Mike Tyson disarmed all those big guys, given that apparently it's impossible.

Tyson, 5'10'', 71'' reach, stubby little guy, not only outjabbed but also repeatedly got inside:

Green 6'5'', 82'' reach
Ribalta 6'5'', 80'' reach
Bonecrusher 6'5'', 82'' reach
Tucker 6'5'', 82'' reach
Biggs 6'5'', 80'' reach
Williams 6'4'', 85'' reach

Again you're missing the point by bringing up examples that are not comparable. Tyson had other attributes that made up for his lack of height, attributes Marciano never had. Like having possibly the fastest hands in HW history, true one punch KO power in either hand, good head movement and great combination punching. Also he had the fear factor which won him a lot of fights without even throwing a punch. Plus he wasn't 13 stone, he was built like a tank. Bit of a silly comparison to be fair.

I was providing a high profile example of a short stubby guy handling big long rangy guys, which is apparently an impossible feat. The Deontay Wilder presented in this thread bears no relation to the Deontay Wilder who boxes in the ring, case in point: your constant reference to his reach which in the real world he doesn't use very well, leading to near disasters versus poor opponents.

Who said it was impossible? Tyson is a different fighter to Marciano, it's a moot point. Again you are picking on individual things, I never said Wilder would win because he has a longer reach, that would be a ridiculous argument. It's the combination of the extremes in height and reach combined with weight, speed and power advantages.

[Tuan_Jim]

Again you're missing the point by bringing up examples that are not comparable. Tyson had other attributes that made up for his lack of height, attributes Marciano never had. Like having possibly the fastest hands in HW history, true one punch KO power in either hand, good head movement and great combination punching. Also he had the fear factor which won him a lot of fights without even throwing a punch. Plus he wasn't 13 stone, he was built like a tank. Bit of a silly comparison to be fair.

I was providing a high profile example of a short stubby guy handling big long rangy guys, which is apparently an impossible feat. The Deontay Wilder presented in this thread bears no relation to the Deontay Wilder who boxes in the ring, case in point: your constant reference to his reach which in the real world he doesn't use very well, leading to near disasters versus poor opponents.

Who said it was impossible? Tyson is a different fighter to Marciano, it's a moot point. Again you are picking on individual things, I never said Wilder would win because he has a longer reach, that would be a ridiculous argument. It's the combination of the extremes in height and reach combined with weight, speed and power advantages.

All of which we have seen nullified multiple times thru boxing history by lesser men than Marciano.

[Controversial]

I was providing a high profile example of a short stubby guy handling big long rangy guys, which is apparently an impossible feat. The Deontay Wilder presented in this thread bears no relation to the Deontay Wilder who boxes in the ring, case in point: your constant reference to his reach which in the real world he doesn't use very well, leading to near disasters versus poor opponents.

Who said it was impossible? Tyson is a different fighter to Marciano, it's a moot point. Again you are picking on individual things, I never said Wilder would win because he has a longer reach, that would be a ridiculous argument. It's the combination of the extremes in height and reach combined with weight, speed and power advantages.

All of which we have seen nullified multiple times thru boxing history by lesser men than Marciano.

What comparable examples did you have in mind?

[Tuan_Jim]

Who said it was impossible? Tyson is a different fighter to Marciano, it's a moot point. Again you are picking on individual things, I never said Wilder would win because he has a longer reach, that would be a ridiculous argument. It's the combination of the extremes in height and reach combined with weight, speed and power advantages.

All of which we have seen nullified multiple times thru boxing history by lesser men than Marciano.

What comparable examples did you have in mind?

Am I Sisyphus?

[Controversial]

All of which we have seen nullified multiple times thru boxing history by lesser men than Marciano.

What comparable examples did you have in mind?

Am I Sisyphus?

Is that your way of saying you don’t have any lol

[Flump]

One thing that would be a factor, if it was a 1950's referee then Marciano's chances get better. Wilder's missus wouldn't need a new hip in a hurry.

[Tuan_Jim]

What comparable examples did you have in mind?

Am I Sisyphus?

Is that your way of saying you don’t have any lol

No, it means am I condemned to forever repeat myself in this thread? I've said everything already, just go back to page 1 and read it again if you care.

[Controversial]

Am I Sisyphus?

Is that your way of saying you don’t have any lol

No, it means am I condemned to forever repeat myself in this thread? I've said everything already, just go back to page 1 and read it again if you care.

Valuev, Tyson, Cooper and RJJ, gotcha.

[Cojimar 1946]

I would be cautious about reading too much into a fighter sometimes struggling with inferior opposition.

Renaldo Snipes hurt Holmes worse than anyone has hurt Wilder so far. Joe Louis being decked by Braddock, etc.

[tiny_acres]

I would be cautious about reading too much into a fighter sometimes struggling with inferior opposition.

Renaldo Snipes hurt Holmes worse than anyone has hurt Wilder so far. Joe Louis being decked by Braddock, etc.

Please don't use logic in a debate here. You will just waste your time

[Ambling Alp II]

Oh, yes logic. Like just assuming a bigger guy would win. Scales and tape measures are all we need. Because in real life that always works. No reason to actually think here.

[tiny_acres]

Oh, yes logic. Like just assuming a bigger guy would win. Scales and tape measures are all we need. Because in real life that always works. No reason to actually think here.

His comment and my response had not one fuggin thing about size. You are too thick headed to read a response sometimes without a preconceived notion.

[Controversial]

Oh, yes logic. Like just assuming a bigger guy would win. Scales and tape measures are all we need. Because in real life that always works. No reason to actually think here.

You keep repeating this. No one has said size and tape measurements is all we need. I'd fancy Marciano to have more success with Muhammed Ali and Ali's bigger than Rocky and a better fighter than Wilder.

[NateJR]

Not even close, Wilder is way too big for Marciano. Wilders shots would move Marciano and as tough as Marciano was, he's not going to be able to handle that type of power from a man that much bigger. I don't see this going more than a few rounds. Wilder could easily paw with his jab, just to measure where Marciano was, if Marciano ducked under the jab and tried to work his way inside, Wilder would only have to take a half of step and Marciano is missing by feet, leaving himself wide open for a right hand that he simply wouldn't be able to handle. A mismatch in a huge way.

[jamamb]

Not even close, Wilder is way too big for Marciano. Wilders shots would move Marciano and as tough as Marciano was, he's not going to be able to handle that type of power from a man that much bigger. I don't see this going more than a few rounds. Wilder could easily paw with his jab, just to measure where Marciano was, if Marciano ducked under the jab and tried to work his way inside, Wilder would only have to take a half of step and Marciano is missing by feet, leaving himself wide open for a right hand that he simply wouldn't be able to handle. A mismatch in a huge way.

its defo a fight that really shows a big difference in the times (and how some people cling to them)

rock might be a smw today. some people keep mentioning other guys like spinks, tyson, jones, etc, but this is a whole nother level of size difference.

and rock had just about the worst style possible for facing much larger guys. face first, trying to overhwhelm with strength and power, not very fast, etc

[keithmoonhangover]

Oh, yes logic. Like just assuming a bigger guy would win. Scales and tape measures are all we need. Because in real life that always works. No reason to actually think here.

You keep repeating this. No one has said size and tape measurements is all we need. I'd fancy Marciano to have more success with Muhammed Ali and Ali's bigger than Rocky and a better fighter than Wilder.

How? Ali in his prime was virtually unhittable. Wilder just got punched all over the ring by a flat footed 39 year old with high blood pressure.

[Ambling Alp II]

Oh, yes logic. Like just assuming a bigger guy would win. Scales and tape measures are all we need. Because in real life that always works. No reason to actually think here.

You keep repeating this. No one has said size and tape measurements is all we need. I'd fancy Marciano to have more success with Muhammed Ali and Ali's bigger than Rocky and a better fighter than Wilder.

Go back and red what Cojimar, Dr. Duke, jmamb Tony 1244, jcs 80s, Duran 1970, said. They all brought up size right off of the bat and dismissed Marciano.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Marciano was small, there's no point pretending he wasn't. In one book a family member of his said he was closer to 5'9". He had short arms and small hands. He won fights by using his physical strength, fitness, power, ability to take a punch and pressure. He wasn't particularly skilful, more awkward.

- Oh, really?



Now, I'm not saying you're a dunce, but you could be doing a much better job at not making yourself look so

You boxing genii always fail to fill in the conditions, like ring size and style, gloves, rounds and access to and/or restrictions as to training methods and nutritional supplements. Guaranteed with BALCO Vic VADA Vitamins in a 12 rd era Rock would be at a monstrous 220lb and have no problems in his aggressive crouch against the biggest target in his life, roughly akin to the skills his famed 300 lb heavybag he used to pound on.

It was once recorded that Dempsey, Louis, and Rocky all had 11" fists, so I measured mine, and, hey, I'm in elite company. Some hands are considered small as measured by finger length, but Rock ain't playing basketball or tiddly winks. He's got knuckle equipage of a natural enforcer. Sonny was perhaps supreme in that regard save Valuev in fist size, usually recorded at 15". I think this a family promo with his wife Geraldine:



The mantra that a good big man usually beats a good small man usually holds true, say 75% of the time, but where you fall short not even having strong stumpy fingers is your abject failure to understand that TBA Wilder is just a belt holder whereas Rock an all time great no matter how you big it up. Lessee, Wilder knocking out dumpy TBAs vs Rocky knocking all time greats highly ranked by Ring.


BTW, Rock in a strange confluence with Wilder in his 24th fight knocked out a fellow prospect, 6-4, 190lb 20 year old Carmine Vingo in a brutal fight that saw last rites issued over Vingo. He managed to live but was half paralyzed the rest of his life. He would have soon matured at 210 easy, and where was Wilder in his 24th fight? He KOed another gimme, a fat oaf named Damon McCreary. Rocky had his last fight at age 32 and retired at 49-0, 43 KO. Wilder just hit 40-0 at age 33 in spite of turning pro earlier that Rock couldn't do by dint of conscription in post WW2 rebuilding. So he's got quite some way to go to fill Rocky's little shoes.

[jamamb]

Oh, yes logic. Like just assuming a bigger guy would win. Scales and tape measures are all we need. Because in real life that always works. No reason to actually think here.

You keep repeating this. No one has said size and tape measurements is all we need. I'd fancy Marciano to have more success with Muhammed Ali and Ali's bigger than Rocky and a better fighter than Wilder.

Go back and red what Cojimar, Dr. Duke, jmamb Tony 1244, jcs 80s, Duran 1970, said. They all brought up size right off of the bat and dismissed Marciano.

lolz nah, your misrepresenting.

not just 40 pounds in weight
not just huge differences in height and reach
not just rocky having a style poorly suited to facing far bigger guys
not just wilders power

its all of the above together that matter.

but omg 220 pound, super fast mike tyson beat bigger guys! super humingly fast roy jones outsped 3 inches taller/longer reached non-punching plodder john ruiz!

[oogiebe]

The Rock was great in his time, but today's HW's are just too big and athletic.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes, today's heavyweights are just so athletic.

[Ambling Alp II]

You keep repeating this. No one has said size and tape measurements is all we need. I'd fancy Marciano to have more success with Muhammed Ali and Ali's bigger than Rocky and a better fighter than Wilder.

Go back and red what Cojimar, Dr. Duke, jmamb Tony 1244, jcs 80s, Duran 1970, said. They all brought up size right off of the bat and dismissed Marciano.

lolz nah, your misrepresenting.

not just 40 pounds in weight
not just huge differences in height and reach
not just rocky having a style poorly suited to facing far bigger guys
not just wilders power

its all of the above together that matter.

but omg 220 pound, super fast mike tyson beat bigger guys! super humingly fast roy jones outsped 3 inches taller/longer reached non-punching plodder john ruiz!

Marciano had great power in both hands. He also had a great punch output. You fight Marciano, you are going to get hit with some hard shots. Like anyone he wasn't perfect, but he some major strengths that would cause almost anyone problems.
For the first time in his career, Wilder would have to face an opponent who was more than just a punching bag. His chin would get tested for the first time. He might have to have a fight plan that includes a Plan B. He might have to dig deep. We don't know if has any of these things.

Omg, why don't you come up with some examples of a great heavyweight under 200 losing to a heavyweight over 220? Should be dozens over 130 years of boxing. Love to hear about them.