The Lineal History of the HW division.

[BoxBuzz]

[HomicideHenry]

Some jerkoff had the gall to tell me that the lineal title is meaningless the other day on the "Current Scene" WTH is happening to this site?

[jamamb]

my problem with lineal titles is the lack of obligation. so you can get a guy like fury who sits out for nearly 3 years, ballooning to nearly 400 pounds of obesity and doing drugs, while other hws are much more active and raking up good wins. yet he somehow is frozen in as lineal champ? to me actually fighting and staying active beating good challengers is more significant

[HomicideHenry]

This business has always been built upon the proposition of "to be the man you must beat the man", and if that no longer really matters--- then why does this business even exist anymore?

It defeats the purpose of the whole thing. The title from man to man is everything. These damned organizations have diluted not only the lineal title, but the uniqueness of the top dog in every division.

It's become professional wrestling. "Oh well because this guy has the Intercontinental title and the European title and the Interim title he's more important than the actual champion of the world." That's the mentality of fans today because they've been CONDITIONED (if not brainwashed) by the "powers that be" to accept this premise when HISTORICALLY that has never been the case.

The lineal status of Fury is reminiscent of the comeback of Joe Louis--- where the sport moved on and you had the BBBC recognizing Lee Savold as the world's champion and the NYSAC recognizing Ezzard Charles--- and even when Charles beat Louis, the BBBC still recognized Savold UNTIL Louis beat him, then the BBBC recognized Charles.

But if you read the record books, it will say, "Ezzard Charles wins the lineal title against Joe Louis." If you read the record books it will say, "Mike Tyson wins the lineal title against Michael Spinks." Same goes for Jackson Johnson when he beat Jeffries, and same for Lennox Lewis when he beat Shannon Briggs (who had beaten Foreman).

These kinds of arguments reminds me of the ridiculousness some months back of Lennox Lewis being described as the "unified" champion instead of as the "undisputed" champion--- because revisionists of history and protocol argued, "Well he didn't fight John Ruiz and he didn't win the WBO," etc.

The facts remains the facts. It does not matter what YOU or anyone else thinks about how things are done--- that's just the way it is. To say that Fury isn't the lineal (and true) champion just because someone else won a belt or two, is ignoring that Joe Frazier wasn't considered "the man" until he defeated Muhammad Ali in MSG in the FOTC.

The passage of time is meaningless. The pick up of titles is meaningless--- if the lineal champion who retired as champion returns to the ring. If Wilder beats Fury--- he's the lineal champion. Period. If Fury wins, then he's back to being the top dog in the division and AJ is number two. Period.

It does not matter if you disagree. That's the way this sport has always been, going back to Jack Broughton returning as lineal champion and losing to Jack Slack.

[SteveO]

Nicely summed up HomicideHenry
People are entitled to their own opinions on the matter - but they won't alter the facts!

[BoxBuzz]

The sanctioning titles are a business...….for all the good and bad that business brings.

However the BUSINESS of beating the MAN, or beating the MAN who beat the man. Is a bit personal.

And NO ONE can regulate it, make policies, best practices, protocols or have any real control over it. Except of course the current standing champion, and the challenger before him.



So it is what it is, It can not be phucked with and it produces some very odd things to talk about, evaluate and discuss along the way. It is one of the few things that can NOT be corrupted. Hell even if Sharkey gave it to Carnera, he was on the ground (voluntary or not) and that my friends is still the man who beat the man. It simply exists as irrefutable, and having happened.

[tiny_acres]

The sanctioning titles are a business...….for all the good and bad that business brings.

However the BUSINESS of beating the MAN, or beating the MAN who beat the man. Is a bit personal.

And NO ONE can regulate it, make policies, best practices, protocols or have any real control over it. Except of course the current standing champion, and the challenger before him.



So it is what it is, It can not be phucked with and it produces some very odd things to talk about, evaluate and discuss along the way. It is one of the few things that can NOT be corrupted. Hell even if Sharkey gave it to Carnera, he was on the ground (voluntary or not) and that my friends is still the man who beat the man. It simply exists as irrefutable, and having happened.

In the immortal words of Ric Flair
To be the man you've got to beat the man
Whoooooooo

[Onetimeonly]

Some jerkoff had the gall to tell me that the lineal title is meaningless the other day on the "Current Scene" WTH is happening to this site?

He was right

[BoxBuzz]

Some jerkoff had the gall to tell me that the lineal title is meaningless the other day on the "Current Scene" WTH is happening to this site?

He was right

Well when it comes to the subjective, everyone is 100% correct, (in their own kingdom).

[Onetimeonly]

Some jerkoff had the gall to tell me that the lineal title is meaningless the other day on the "Current Scene" WTH is happening to this site?

He was right

Well when it comes to the subjective, everyone is 100% correct, (in their own kingdom).

Lineal is nothing but opinion in this day and age. Very rare the top 2 guys ever fight. It's been irrelevant since the ibf became relevant. I don't know why people cling to it so desperately.

[HomicideHenry]

Because us True fans evaluate fighters by their willingness--- or lack thereof--- to meet the #2 or #3 guy in their division. AJ, despite $50 million dollars, turned down Wilder--- period. He'd rather fight a fornicating cruiserweight ffs.

So if he supposedly was "#1" he automatically DQ'd himself handing over his brass balls card--- hes no longer the "#1" because now that's going to be determined by Wilder and Fury. Whoever loses will be #2. Simple as that.

When fighters and their managers/promoters pussy out... True fans reevaluate the situation... We don't cling on to the "#1" just because Eddie Hearn and RING magazine and Boxing News says we have to.

Fury, even if you disagree with everything I said--- would be #3 anyways because of who he is, what he's done, etc. Because the #2 & #3 guy are facing each other--- instead of the #1 guy (allegedly) refusing to face either of the other two--- that makes not only both of them more meaningful than he is, but it gives greater credibility to Fury as lineal champion because *drum roll* REAL CHAMPIONS FIGHT ONE ANOTHER, NOT AVOID EACH OTHER.

[Onetimeonly]

Fury retired, he lost it then. Josh vs wlad was a clear top guy fight. I guess your opening line is why you types cling to it. Boxing nerd snobbery. Though your lust for fury could play a role in that example. Lol at fury being ranked above aj after wilder destroys him.

[oogiebe]

Because us True fans evaluate fighters by their willingness--- or lack thereof--- to meet the #2 or #3 guy in their division. AJ, despite $50 million dollars, turned down Wilder--- period. He'd rather fight a effing cruiserweight ffs.

So if he supposedly was "#1" he automatically DQ'd himself handing over his brass balls card--- hes no longer the "#1" because now that's going to be determined by Wilder and Fury. Whoever loses will be #2. Simple as that.

When fighters and their managers/promoters pussy out... True fans reevaluate the situation... We don't cling on to the "#1" just because Eddie Hearn and RING magazine and Boxing News says we have to.

Fury, even if you disagree with everything I said--- would be #3 anyways because of who he is, what he's done, etc. Because the #2 & #3 guy are facing each other--- instead of the #1 guy (allegedly) refusing to face either of the other two--- that makes not only both of them more meaningful than he is, but it gives greater credibility to Fury as lineal champion because *drum roll* REAL CHAMPIONS FIGHT ONE ANOTHER, NOT AVOID EACH OTHER.

I'd say you are really describing "the People's Champ." and not lineal. Not that I give a rats patooty on the whole lineal BS. It did provide clarity at certain times in history when things were really muddled up. Early 1980's comes to mind.

[HomicideHenry]

The People's Champ and The Lineal Title is almost always one and the same--- OneTime brings up the IBF title, and he's missing the point entirely of that whole scenario (ie, Larry Holmes).

The WBC was playing politics, as per usual, and stripped Holmes because of him facing Marvis Frazier--- who was unranked--- instead of their mandatory. Far as the rest of the world saw it, Holmes was allowed at least a voluntary defense once in a while. What did it really hurt, when all of these contenders (at the time) regardless of rank was worth the same?

The WBC could have played along, ranked Frazier, and made a bundle off the sanctioning fees. It's not like the WBC was uncorruptible--- remember "Irish" Mike Baker magically getting ranked to fight Maurice Hope?

The IBF, did what was right and gave Holmes their belt--- because Holmes was THE MAN TO BEAT, he was the lineal champion, and he was the people's champion--- not Gerrie Coetzee, not any of the other jerkoffs the WBA and WBC wanted to nominate every other semester.

Yes, there's too many damned belts and organizations--- more now than ever--- but let's be real here. Fury never lost his distinction IN THE RING--- and in this sport, politics or not, that's the only thing that matters. Wilder's been WBC champion longer than Joshua has been IBF/WBA/WBO champion--- so he has that seniority to be #2 to Fury, and that's only been solidified by the fact Hearn backed out of the negotiations.

If Joshua really wanted to fight Wilder he'd of put his foot down, been a man, and told Hearn to make it happen--- but he didn't. He never really wanted it. Why? Your guess is as good as mine, but, in this business it's seen as cowardice.

[Onetimeonly]

If you could only find a mild consistency around your fandom, you might be a solid contributor.

[SteveO]

Fury retired, he lost it then.

Fury did not retire.
He continued his career as soon as his boxing licence was restored by the BBBC.

[Onetimeonly]

Fury retired, he lost it then.

Fury did not retire.
He continued his career as soon as his boxing licence was restored by the BBBC.

He announced his retirement more than once. We all know what that usually means but it's certainly enough to relinquish an outdated, mythical title. Or not, it means nothing.

[HomicideHenry]

I never saw him officially announce anything--- he always said (to the effect) that whether he never fought again or did he had a helluva career, etc. The fact that RING magazine had him recognized as their champion--- up until the time he was making his comeback against Seferi--- ought to be evidence enough that nobody really took the retirement seriously.

[Onetimeonly]

Nothing means less than a magazine belt affiliated with a promoter.

[HomicideHenry]

Nothing means less than a magazine belt affiliated with a promoter.

#1- Considering De La Hoya is still begging Wilder to come back your logic don't quite work here because you would assume such a syndication would have dropped Fury from the start instead of keeping him as their champion until this year

#2- De La Hoya has owned RING since 2007; are we to assume that every boxer ranked in RING since that time has been the subject of manipulation for De La Hoya's interests as a promoter? If that is the case then how come GGG was rated #1 more times than not instead of Canelo who De La Hoya promotes? Why was Floyd Mayweather rated #1 for years and years DESPITE De La Hoya believing he was robbed against him? Etc etc etc. While not a perfect institution, it's been seemingly fair handed considering De La Hoya could have just did it however he wanted.

#3- Fury was ultimately stripped because in accordance to their guidelines (which were around long before De La Hoya bought it) for 26 months without a match. So while I thought it was unwise, it's their belt. Ring currently has Joshua as it's champion. So if anything Ring has been more in line with your thoughts than anything else.

[Onetimeonly]

As usual ,too many words when you're trying to refute factual information. The more wrong you are, the longer the novel. I almost feel bad that you think I read them.

[HomicideHenry]

Okay asshole, you're on the foe list so I don't have to ever be bothered seeing your fornicating prickish mouth again. I'm not wasting anymore lines on your worthless ass.

[BoxBuzz]

The use of the ignore feature is a great idea when one contributor can simply not abide another contributor.

It also takes some self discipline, as the words of an opponent or foe can/will show up when quoted.

I applaud this Good choice, good luck.

[SteveO]

Ring currently has Joshua as it's champion. So if anything Ring has been more in line with your thoughts than anything else.

Actually, the 'Ring' championship is still vacant.
They have AJ as their #1 contender and Wilder at #2. Fury is at #7.

[HomicideHenry]

Ring currently has Joshua as it's champion. So if anything Ring has been more in line with your thoughts than anything else.

Actually, the 'Ring' championship is still vacant.
They have AJ as their #1 contender and Wilder at #2. Fury is at #7.

BTW SteveO... Have you uncovered more fights for Jem Roche and others like Jewey Smith?