Anthony Joshua Vs Riddick Bowe

[Ambling Alp II]

Bowe was getting dominated prior to the low blows. That can't be used as an excuse given how the fights played out.

It was part of the story. You can't pretend that it was not a factor in the fight. If Bowe wasn't hit low, may he regroups and comes back and stops Golota earlier.
And Bowe was also intentionally headbutted in the second round of the 2nd fight. That should not be ignored either.
Of course Bowe didn't look great. But he could have quit, he didn't. If he had a glassjaw, he would have been stopped.
And he wasn't fighting a rusty 41 year old either.

[Ambling Alp II]

@ Bowe getting dominated by Golota... In the end... Golota wasn't good enough (twice) because he beat himself... And never forget, even with Bowe getting the snot knocked out of him, etc he was only dropped two times in his career--- once against Holyfield in the rubber match, and once against Golota in the second fight. One was in his prime, the other at the tail end.

AJ in the amateurs and in the pros has been dropped--- and even in sparring he's been crumbled (ie, Lawrence Okolie) so his capacity in terms of punch resistance is not really the best. Then again, he's proven he could get off the canvas to win.

Bowe, also, when he fought Golota was in essence mentally/emotionally and physically "passed it"--- he loved the money and what came with the title, but had no real interest or ambition to be "the man" in the division. If he did he'd of fought Lennox Lewis instead of getting a refrigerator installed in his bedroom.

The Bowe who fought Holyfield, I'm not sure if any heavyweight (other than the top five or ten in history) could have been able to have beaten him. The AJ who fought for the IBF title, who fought Klitschko, who fought Parker... Ehhhh... At the end of the day it's two world-class punchers, but Bowe has the chin and Bowe has the superior skills.

Well your first paragraph isn't factually correct, but I agree with the gist of your post.

Even the Bowe who lost to Holyfield was a great fighter. Less than 10 guys who would have beaten him. And Bowe certainly could have got the decision in that fight.

Bowe certainly better opponents.
However, Bowe was much, much, more tested than Joshua has been to this point.
He didn't come up the easy way like Joshua did either when he was an inexperienced fighter. He beat Tony Tubbs with 2 years experience..
Tyrell Biggs as well. Bruce Seldon was another prospect at the time Bowe beat him. He had just give McCall a tough fight.

[Cojimar 1946]

He wasn't more tested, he beat a total of 3 ranked contenders his entire career. How is that tested?

Where were the fights with Tyson, Lewis, Moorer, Witherspoon, Tucker, McCall, etc, etc.
He missed out on practically all the best of his era aside from Holyfield.

[Onetimeonly]

Holy field was the best of his era

[Ambling Alp II]

I am guessing that you don't go by the method of throwing out a fighter's most important fight? (when convenient of course)
Bowe fought a prime Holyfield twice. He won once and lost a very close decision in the other. Should give someone a clue that he was pretty good.

Would have nice if he had fought some of the other top heavyweights. He did sign to fight Lewis but Lewis lost to McCall. He was supposed to fight Mercer but Mercer lost to Ferguson. Tyson was in prison for a big chunk of the time and didn't seem to want to fight Bowe.

It should not but only about the number of ranked contenders. (Obviously a ranked contender in one era might not be nearly as good as a ranked contender in another.)
You also have have to look at who he was fighting coming up.
Tony Tubbs was not ranked by Ring, but probably should have been. That's a big win for a guy with a guy with 2 years of pro experience.
Pierre Coetzer was nothing special but he was an experienced pro but who was a stiff. He would be in the Top 5 today. Bowe beat him before he fought Holyfield.
Tyrell Biggs was not far out of the top 10. Bowe beat him on the way up.
Bruce Seldon was a risky fight for a prospect as well.

[Cojimar 1946]

He did fight Holyfield and did fairly well and also fought Golota and got absolutely thrashed twice. We don't get to throw out the Golota fights because it doesn't fit with your preconceived notions of how good Bowe is supposed to be. Styles influence fights and it may be that Bowe just had an edge over Holyfield due to stylistic reasons but as the Golota and Tubbs fights show he didn't have an easy time with other guys who didn't enjoy Holyfield's reputation.

Bowe wasn't difficult to hit and I suspect this could cause him massive problems against big punchers. Lewis stopped him easily in the Olympics and I suspect would have knocked him out quickly had they fought as professionals.

[Ambling Alp II]

Of course we should not throw out the Golota fights. They happened. You can't throw out the Holyfield fights either. They happened. you have to count everything.

There are many guys who would have lost to Golota on the nights that Bowe fought him. Anyone without a very good chin would have been stopped. Anyone without a lot of guts would have quit. Of course you like to focus on the negatives on the guys you like, and then exaggerate the positives of the recent fighters that you like.
There are 10 fighters who could have been that successful against that version of Holyfield.

Everything (close to the fighter's primes) counts. However, anyone who knows boxing who looks at Bowe's fights can deduce that there have not been many better than many.
The Lewis fight in the Olympics was a joke. Absolutely no reason for it to be stopped. He was not beaten badly at all.

[Cojimar 1946]

Golota couldn't even make it out of the first round against Lennox Lewis, It's hard to know how many would have beaten the Golota that fought Bowe but his career suggests he was vulnerable to big hitters who attacked him early.

Bowe showed courage in the rematch where he continued fighting despite a terriffic beating, but I'm not really sold on Golota being a huge puncher. During Golota's prime Corey Sanders, John Ruiz, Orlin Norris, Jesse Ferguson and others were all able to go the distance with him. This is not really what I would expect if he was some massive puncher.

[HomicideHenry]

Ruiz and Sanders aren't what I'd call in Golota's prime--- his back-to-back-to back title shots in the early 2000s was because most felt he was robbed against Byrd and a minority felt that he was robbed in the Ruiz fight, which brought about his blowout loss to Brewster. However, initially, his shot at Byrd was considered to be an easy fight for the IBF title holder because Golota wasn't considered to be anything but a fringe contender at the time--- don't forget not long before that he was brutalized by Tyson and Golota's trainer went off in a rant saying, "My fighter had no balls," only to find out that Golota had a broken neck and fractured cheek bones.

https://nypost.com/2004/11/14/golota-ro ... ight-fest/

Golota was considered "done" as a serious contender by many critics in the sport after the Lewis loss ('97) and he was completely written off in '99 after losing to Grant--- especially when Grant was annihilated by Lewis five months later. So when Golota fought Byrd, it was perceived as cannon fodder for Byrd.

As for Sanders, T-Rex suffered a detached retina during the fight. Not long after this, he'd knock out Oleg Masksaev--- so should we write off Sanders as some bum? No. He is what we call in boxing a spoiler. The man was Tyson's sparring partner. He could take hits. So I don't hold it against Golota as much as others would.

As for Norris, prior to the Golota fight he'd only been stopped THREE TIMES in his career--- so Norris was a helluva nut to crack. Not long before, Norris went the distance with Henry Akinwande, which is remarkable because Norris is only 5'9.5" and Akinwande was nearly a full foot taller. It must be noted, though, Vitali Klitschko knocked out Norris following the Golota fight. Could it be Golota softened Norris up for Vitali? Regardless, it can't be really held against Golota because Norris was one of boxing's toughest men.

[Ezzard]

Bowe edges it at the moment but I suspect Joshua will overtake him.

[Cojimar 1946]

It seems pretty clear that Golota's power didn't really translate at top level. He wasn't a puncher anywhere close to the calibre of a Lewis or a Joshua for instance. If he was I would have expected him to quickly kayo guys like Ferguson (stopped 7 times) and Norris. Norris not suffering more stoppage losses probably is related to him by and large not facing the divisions big hitters. He had an inconclusive fight with Tyson in which he was hit after the bell and claimed he hurt his knee but we don't know if his chin would have held up had the fight continued. I certainly find it difficult to imagine Sanders, or Ferguson, or Norris going 12 rounds with Joshua. The quick brutal loss to Vitali also doesn't speak well for his durability.

In any case, I think its silly to speak of Bowe absorbing a beating from Golota without being kayoed as some spectacular feat of durability that few could replicate. I could easily name 30 guys from the 1990s alone that I don't think Golota could kayo.

[Onetimeonly]

Norris was a good fighter, Ferguson was quite tough. It's a shame you only use the data base on these fighters when you could watch film. I don't think Tyson took Ferguson off of his feet.

[SteveO]

So you don't rate Norton?

Norton is definitely not an ATG - he never won a heavyweight title fight!

[DrDuke]

So you don't rate Norton?

Norton is definitely not an ATG - he never won a heavyweight title fight!

By this logic Ruiz, Valuev and Martin have more rights to be called ATGs, than Norton.

[SteveO]

By this logic Ruiz, Valuev and Martin have more rights to be called ATGs, than Norton.

None of those are ATG's either.

[Cojimar 1946]

Tyson did take Ferguson off his feat, dropped him heavily in the 5th round and seemed on his way to stopping him the next round before Ferguson was dq'd for excessive holding. The DQ was apparently later changed to a TKO loss for reasons that are unclear.