Is Usyk the best CW of all time ?

[oogiebe]

Id say that at cruiser-weight there resumes will be pretty simular (assuming usyk wins tomorrow). i also believe usyk will have heavyweight sucses, but im not confident he will find enough fights there to pass holyfield. (note, moving up weight is easier if your on some lovely pharmaceuticals, i believe holyfield was, id like to believe usyk isn't but who knows.) but yea cruiser to cruiser id say usyk and holyfield are very close (differnt cruiser limit though...)

Once he moves up, Usyk will be hard pressed to even match the B list of heavyweights on Evander's CV -- Rahman, Ruiz, Valuev, Byrd, Moorer, Ibragimov -- and will probably never even get to fight anyone who would fit in the A list.

Usyk shouldn't mess around - he would beat the brakes off Joshua if it was his next fight.

As for the OP, the CW GOAT is only a 3 horse race anyway between Holyfield, Haye & Usyk. Usyk has probably achieved more in the division then the other 2 by going to Russia and beating Gassiev for all 4 belts + the Ali trophy. I'll take Usyk as the CW GOAT, edging over Holyfield & Hate a distant 3rd.

Disagree on the Usyk/AJ fight (not an AJ fan particularly, but I don't see Usyk winning this one) but 100% on the GOAT. Usyk may have been behind the Real Deal, but his convincing shattering of Bellow put him over the top in my book.

[Onetimeonly]

Really? Belle's carries that much weight at cruiser? Good win, but not better than qawi or ocasio.

[Onetimeonly]

That loss is Tony's best result.

[Ricky]

Really? Belle's carries that much weight at cruiser? Good win, but not better than qawi or ocasio.

Bellew was just cashing out & never believed for a minute he would win. Gassiev i honestly thought was a 60/40ish type fight but turned out to be a mismatch.

[jamamb]

he is a legit atg #2 contender though, the division simply hasnt been loaded enough for it to be otherwise

What!? The CW division is one of the best in boxing currently.

Historically, I believe he meant.

yes thats what i mean. some people say 'oh, only has 16 fights etc', but historically the division isnt so deep that just 16 fights should prevent him from a very high atg ranking. in fact holy and usyk , who are my atg top 2, both had around the same fights there

the thing about cruiser, aside from the fact its a relatively young division without a great deal of historical depth, is also that when guys do rack up standout wins, they often move to hw shortly after, so you dont really get many guys putting together several top wins at cruiser while also having loads of fights there

the guys who notably had 30+ cruiser fights, guys like de leon and jc gomez, and jirov imo were a bit lacking on the wins of quality side. gomez in particular fought loads of very soft touches. usyks second grade challengers like mchunu and hunter would easily be among top tier gomez wins at cruiser.

[Mexi-Box]

You have it right that it's young. It doesn't lack talent, though. Briedis/Glowacki/Gassiev are all 50-50 fights if they ever meet. Tough division to outright predict.

We'll even see if Dorticos learned from his loss to Gassiev. Hard to count out a guy in his physical prime with solid power and skills.

[candyslim]

I agree the cruiserweight division is stacked with good fighters currently, and will be even more competitive with the departure of Usyk, but I do believe only Usyk stands any chance of mixing it successfully with the cream of the heavyweight division.

That's not to say that starching the likes of Manuel Charr is beyond an elite cruiser of course.

Taking account of the division's youth because the the thread specifies 'all time', I believe what Jammy says (in the post before the one above) nails it completely.

[boxing_rocks]

I agree the cruiserweight division is stacked with good fighters currently, and will be even more competitive with the departure of Usyk, but I do believe only Usyk stands any chance of mixing it successfully with the cream of the heavyweight division.

That's not to say that starching the likes of Manuel Charr is beyond an elite cruiser of course.

Taking account of the division's youth because the the thread specifies 'all time', I believe what Jammy says (in the post before the one above) nails it completely.

I think if you exclude Joshua, Fury, Wilder, Ortiz, Pulev and Miller, Gassiev and Briedis can be competitive with any other HW.

[punchoutsb]

Id say that at cruiser-weight there resumes will be pretty simular (assuming usyk wins tomorrow). i also believe usyk will have heavyweight sucses, but im not confident he will find enough fights there to pass holyfield. (note, moving up weight is easier if your on some lovely pharmaceuticals, i believe holyfield was, id like to believe usyk isn't but who knows.) but yea cruiser to cruiser id say usyk and holyfield are very close (differnt cruiser limit though...)

Once he moves up, Usyk will be hard pressed to even match the B list of heavyweights on Evander's CV -- Rahman, Ruiz, Valuev, Byrd, Moorer, Ibragimov -- and will probably never even get to fight anyone who would fit in the A list.

This is very true.

[fanman]

Really? Belle's carries that much weight at cruiser? Good win, but not better than qawi or ocasio.

Bellew was just cashing out & never believed for a minute he would win. Gassiev i honestly thought was a 60/40ish type fight but turned out to be a mismatch.

nonsense. bellew believed, put up a good fight. but he knew he was up against it. much better effort than gassiev.

[Ricky]

Really? Belle's carries that much weight at cruiser? Good win, but not better than qawi or ocasio.

Bellew was just cashing out & never believed for a minute he would win. Gassiev i honestly thought was a 60/40ish type fight but turned out to be a mismatch.

nonsense. bellew believed, put up a good fight. but he knew he was up against it. much better effort than gassiev.

He never believed for a second. All the ass kissing about how good Usyk is, how great he is, etc.... all of this was already in Bellews head before the fight. It's not like he had some epiphany inside the ring about his opponents quality.

As for putting up a good fight, well if you listened to the Sky commentary you would think that. He landed nothing of note and his tactics involved hoping to land a bingo shot on usyk coming in. Gassiev was a dangerous opponent. Usyk had nothing but contempt for what Bellew was bringing.

[Best Coast]

Id say that at cruiser-weight there resumes will be pretty simular (assuming usyk wins tomorrow). i also believe usyk will have heavyweight sucses, but im not confident he will find enough fights there to pass holyfield. (note, moving up weight is easier if your on some lovely pharmaceuticals, i believe holyfield was, id like to believe usyk isn't but who knows.) but yea cruiser to cruiser id say usyk and holyfield are very close (differnt cruiser limit though...)

Once he moves up, Usyk will be hard pressed to even match the B list of heavyweights on Evander's CV -- Rahman, Ruiz, Valuev, Byrd, Moorer, Ibragimov -- and will probably never even get to fight anyone who would fit in the A list.

Usyk shouldn't mess around - he would beat the brakes off Joshua if it was his next fight.

As for the OP, the CW GOAT is only a 3 horse race anyway between Holyfield, Haye & Usyk. Usyk has probably achieved more in the division then the other 2 by going to Russia and beating Gassiev for all 4 belts + the Ali trophy. I'll take Usyk as the CW GOAT, edging over Holyfield & Hate a distant 3rd.

Usyk's convincing decision over Gassiev in Russia is not as impressive as Holyfield's electrifying KO4 over Dwight Qawi on Qawi's home turf of Atlantic City (where the "Camden Buzzsaw" had half of his fights after growing up just down the road from AC). Evander's surprisingly one-sided KO of Qawi unified ALL 3 world title belts (since the WBO didnt even come into being until 2 years later in 1988). If Gassiev does eventually manage to someday make the Hall of Fame like Qawi has, then we can compare the two.

[jamamb]

Once he moves up, Usyk will be hard pressed to even match the B list of heavyweights on Evander's CV -- Rahman, Ruiz, Valuev, Byrd, Moorer, Ibragimov -- and will probably never even get to fight anyone who would fit in the A list.

Usyk shouldn't mess around - he would beat the brakes off Joshua if it was his next fight.

As for the OP, the CW GOAT is only a 3 horse race anyway between Holyfield, Haye & Usyk. Usyk has probably achieved more in the division then the other 2 by going to Russia and beating Gassiev for all 4 belts + the Ali trophy. I'll take Usyk as the CW GOAT, edging over Holyfield & Hate a distant 3rd.

Usyk's convincing decision over Gassiev in Russia is not as impressive as Holyfield's electrifying KO4 over Dwight Qawi on Qawi's home turf of Atlantic City (where the "Camden Buzzsaw" had half of his fights after growing up just down the road from AC). Evander's surprisingly one-sided KO of Qawi unified ALL 3 world title belts (since the WBO didnt even come into being until 2 years later in 1988). If Gassiev does eventually manage to someday make the Hall of Fame like Qawi has, then we can compare the two.

maybe usyk could rematch gassiev to see if he could get a stoppage in the second try

btw just to correct, there were only 2 belts on the line in holyfield vs qawi 2 (ibf and wba), qawi had lost just months earlier to ossie ocassio and of course had already lost the wba to evander, so he didnt bring any titltes to the table this time. holyfield then added the wbc title after by beating de leon

tbh i rate the first win over qawi more then the second, qawi i think wasnt the same fighter for the rematch and had actually lost to ossie ocassio just a few months earlier at cruiser. after that he basically lost to every notable opponent he faced.

[DrDuke]

maybe usyk could rematch gassiev to see if he could get a stoppage in the second try

I'm for him moving up. He has defeated the best at the CWs. Of course, there are some potential opponents, including previously defeated, but I don't see big profit in such fights. Usyk will win all these bouts (again). The HW run seems to be more challenging, more profitable for both fans and Usyk. Potential fights at the HWs are more interesting and Usyk is gonna get more cash in this division. Furthermore, acknowledging how good Usyk is, the risk of moving up is justified.

[candyslim]

I agree the cruiserweight division is stacked with good fighters currently, and will be even more competitive with the departure of Usyk, but I do believe only Usyk stands any chance of mixing it successfully with the cream of the heavyweight division.

That's not to say that starching the likes of Manuel Charr is beyond an elite cruiser of course.

Taking account of the division's youth because the the thread specifies 'all time', I believe what Jammy says (in the post before the one above) nails it completely.

I think if you exclude Joshua, Fury, Wilder, Ortiz, Pulev and Miller, Gassiev and Briedis can be competitive with any other HW.

I'd probably add Whyte and Hrgovic to that list, maybe others. I think the step up is way harder for a physical cruiserweight by which I mean one who relies on overpowering his opponent like Gassiev, than the more technical, cerebral type such as Usyk.

Gassiev is a very powerful cruiser but I'm not sure how he'd get on against a Kownacki, a Ruiz, maybe even a Chisora. I'm not saying he loses, but it'd be interesting. No doubt the weight disparity would be reduced as Gassiev would certainly be adding some pounds to that frame. It would depend a lot on how beneficial his added weight turned out to be. I guess you could argue Ruiz is basically a well upholstered cruiserweight.

[Best Coast]

btw just to correct, there were only 2 belts on the line in holyfield vs qawi 2 (ibf and wba), qawi had lost just months earlier to ossie ocassio and of course had already lost the wba to evander, so he didnt bring any titltes to the table this time. holyfield then added the wbc title after by beating de leon

tbh i rate the first win over qawi more then the second, qawi i think wasnt the same fighter for the rematch and had actually lost to ossie ocassio just a few months earlier at cruiser. after that he basically lost to every notable opponent he faced.

My bad on the Holyfield-Qawi rematch being for 3 belts!! Should have done my "homework."

It was only for IBF & WBA like you mention. Evander's 2nd defense of the WBA belt he won in the 1st Qawi match was a unification bout with IBF champ Ricky Parkey, who Holy blew out in 3. Ozzie Ocasio's razor-thin Majority Decision (95-95, 96-94, 96-94) over Qawi was a non-title fight that earned Ozzie a shot at Evander's unified WBA/IBF title 3 months later, which Evander defended with a one-sided TKO11 of Ocasio. After that Holy's 4th defense was the KO4 of Qawi, followed by the 8th-round unification beatdown of WBC champ Carlos DeLeon. Right after DeLeon, Holy made the move to HW, having disposed of every cruiser challenge. That gave Evander a phenomenal 5 CW title defenses (all by KO) in a 14-month span!!

Usyk's 6 CW title defenses took place from December 2016 to November 2018 (a span of 23 months). If, like Holyfield, Usyk can now move up to HW and win a major world title after 2 years, 3 months, then I will be duly impressed.

Btw, if Qawi lost something in the ring before the Holyfield rematch, it was not from the razor-close decision loss to Ocasio, it was most likely from the 15-round war he had in Holyfield-Qawi I.
Evander lost 15 pounds in that titanic battle & no telling how much Qawi lost in that war of attrition.

[Onetimeonly]

Usyk shouldn't mess around - he would beat the brakes off Joshua if it was his next fight.

As for the OP, the CW GOAT is only a 3 horse race anyway between Holyfield, Haye & Usyk. Usyk has probably achieved more in the division then the other 2 by going to Russia and beating Gassiev for all 4 belts + the Ali trophy. I'll take Usyk as the CW GOAT, edging over Holyfield & Hate a distant 3rd.

Usyk's convincing decision over Gassiev in Russia is not as impressive as Holyfield's electrifying KO4 over Dwight Qawi on Qawi's home turf of Atlantic City (where the "Camden Buzzsaw" had half of his fights after growing up just down the road from AC). Evander's surprisingly one-sided KO of Qawi unified ALL 3 world title belts (since the WBO didnt even come into being until 2 years later in 1988). If Gassiev does eventually manage to someday make the Hall of Fame like Qawi has, then we can compare the two.

maybe usyk could rematch gassiev to see if he could get a stoppage in the second try

btw just to correct, there were only 2 belts on the line in holyfield vs qawi 2 (ibf and wba), qawi had lost just months earlier to ossie ocassio and of course had already lost the wba to evander, so he didnt bring any titltes to the table this time. holyfield then added the wbc title after by beating de leon

tbh i rate the first win over qawi more then the second, qawi i think wasnt the same fighter for the rematch and had actually lost to ossie ocassio just a few months earlier at cruiser. after that he basically lost to every notable opponent he faced.

Have you watched qawi/ocasio? Not a good decision.

[Best Coast]

Usyk's convincing decision over Gassiev in Russia is not as impressive as Holyfield's electrifying KO4 over Dwight Qawi on Qawi's home turf of Atlantic City (where the "Camden Buzzsaw" had half of his fights after growing up just down the road from AC). Evander's surprisingly one-sided KO of Qawi unified ALL 3 world title belts (since the WBO didnt even come into being until 2 years later in 1988). If Gassiev does eventually manage to someday make the Hall of Fame like Qawi has, then we can compare the two.

maybe usyk could rematch gassiev to see if he could get a stoppage in the second try

btw just to correct, there were only 2 belts on the line in holyfield vs qawi 2 (ibf and wba), qawi had lost just months earlier to ossie ocassio and of course had already lost the wba to evander, so he didnt bring any titltes to the table this time. holyfield then added the wbc title after by beating de leon

tbh i rate the first win over qawi more then the second, qawi i think wasnt the same fighter for the rematch and had actually lost to ossie ocassio just a few months earlier at cruiser. after that he basically lost to every notable opponent he faced.

Have you watched qawi/ocasio? Not a good decision.

No I havent seen it. Sounds like you must have seen it, Do you think Qawi should have won the decision?

[Onetimeonly]

Definitely