Prime Ellis vs Prime Johansson - 3 Fight Series

[Scypion]

I said before on other threads that I think that Jimmy Ellis could beat anyone that Floyd Patterson beat. One possible stumbling block to that is Ingemar Johansson. Patterson did beat Johansson two out of three fights but lost the first bout between the two fighters. Could Jimmy Ellis match Patterson's two out of three wins in a three fight series against Ingemar? Could Jimmy beat Ingemar at all, or would Ellis have swept a three fight series with Johansson? Opinions welcome.

[oogiebe]

Patterson's chin was much better than Ellis. That made the difference in his trilogy with Johansson. Don't think Ellis would be able to hold up to Ingemar.

[HomicideHenry]

IF.... Johansson could catch him.

[oogiebe]

IF.... Johansson could catch him.

Hmmm...good point actually...though I think he would.

[HomicideHenry]

Possibly. If Ingo could catch Patterson--- who was faster than Ellis--- then it's likely he would have. However, Ellis did have a better chin (imho) than Patterson. Not that that was ever a problem for Johansson as he is/was one of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time.

But, Ellis did stand up against the likes of Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, and George Chuvalo. Then again, he fell against Frazier (twice) and Shavers.

Eddie Machen, is comparable to Ellis. Both roughly the same size and same general style. We all know how that turned out for Machen.

But, Johansson could be out-boxed and out-thought. If Ellis played it safe, and didn't fall into the trap of believing Ingo to be just a "one trick pony" and try to mix it up with him--- he could win a decision.

Johansson's overhand right was thrown so fast and so hard that most people simply couldn't stand up to it. It's unfortunate that he's oftentimes written off as this mediocre talent--- he was a very dangerous man who was so awkward and unorthodox that one minute he looked like dogshit and the next minute he was the winner.

Sorta like Stanley Ketchell. Appearances mean nothing in this business. If you are willing to get down and dirty and hit hard, that is oftentimes enough to get the job done--- especially in an era that wasn't all that great.

Henry Cooper thought he was damn good. Said Johansson was the hardest hitter he ever faced. For a time, believe it or not, a Johansson-Liston match was being discussed. What a shoot out that would have been.

[scorpio83]

Possibly. If Ingo could catch Patterson--- who was faster than Ellis--- then it's likely he would have. However, Ellis did have a better chin (imho) than Patterson. Not that that was ever a problem for Johansson as he is/was one of the hardest hitting heavyweights of all time.

But, Ellis did stand up against the likes of Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, and George Chuvalo. Then again, he fell against Frazier (twice) and Shavers.

Eddie Machen, is comparable to Ellis. Both roughly the same size and same general style. We all know how that turned out for Machen.

But, Johansson could be out-boxed and out-thought. If Ellis played it safe, and didn't fall into the trap of believing Ingo to be just a "one trick pony" and try to mix it up with him--- he could win a decision.

Johansson's overhand right was thrown so fast and so hard that most people simply couldn't stand up to it. It's unfortunate that he's oftentimes written off as this mediocre talent--- he was a very dangerous man who was so awkward and unorthodox that one minute he looked like dogshit and the next minute he was the winner.

Sorta like Stanley Ketchell. Appearances mean nothing in this business. If you are willing to get down and dirty and hit hard, that is oftentimes enough to get the job done--- especially in an era that wasn't all that great.

Henry Cooper thought he was damn good. Said Johansson was the hardest hitter he ever faced. For a time, believe it or not, a Johansson-Liston match was being discussed. What a shoot out that would have been.

Yes, Ellis could out-box Johansson if he play safe and take a decision. If Johansson caught Ellis off the ropes and hit him with his devastating right hand, Ellis would be in trouble.

[DrDuke]

3 fight series? I'd say, Ingo catches Ellis in the 1st fight, which would have been pretty close, probably edging for Ellis. In the 2nd bout Ellis would have arguably taken the decision probably after surviving a knocldown or a couple of them. And in the 3rd bout Ingo would have knocked Ellis out after a more decisive performance, not just catching him.

[Scypion]

Thanks for the responses.

This isn't meant to be a comparison between Jimmy Ellis and Floyd Patterson. I will concede that Patterson was a greater and more accomplished boxer than Jimmy Ellis was, and that is even if Ellis did win all 3 fights in a 3 bout series against Ingemar Johansson,

Ingemar Johansson is in the IBHOF. So, the implication here is if Jimmy Ellis could have beaten Ingemar Johansson in 2 out of 3 fights in their respective primes, then maybe Jimmy Ellis belongs in the IBHOF as well. After all, Ellis did beat Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Leotis Martin, Johnny Persol, and Holly Mims and Wilf Greaves when he was a green middleweight. He also beat a guy named Cassius Clay when he was an amateur.

Trouble is, there is no way to tell what would have happened in a 3 fight series between the 2 men. If not for Johansson's big right hand (Ingo's bingo), I would take Ellis to win all 3 fights between them. But Ingemar might have done to Ellis what he did to Patterson and Machen. Could he do it to Ellis more than once? I guess we will never know.

[Onetimeonly]

Neither of them belong in the hof.

[Scypion]

Neither of them belong in the hof.

Does Patterson belong in the hof?

[Onetimeonly]

Neither of them belong in the hof.

Does Patterson belong in the hof?

Yes

[Scypion]

Neither of them belong in the hof.

Does Patterson belong in the hof?

Yes

I am glad to hear that.

[Scypion]

I believe that Jimmy Ellis could have been Light Heavyweight Champion if he chose to stay in that division. Of course, the big dough was always in the heavyweight division. Ellis chose to fight in the heavyweight division even though the competition was much tougher.

Jimmy turned pro at 21 years of age and fought in the middleweight division for about four years. He basically skipped over the light heavyweight division having only one fight at 176 lbs. and then fighting at heavier weights for the rest of his career. If Ellis stayed in the light heavyweight division, then I believe that he could have become the Light Heavyweight Champion and could have held that championship for a number of years.

Bob Foster was the Light Heavyweight Champion from sometime in 1968 until sometime in 1974. The 6 foot 3 inch Foster seemed to be almost unbeatable as a light heavyweight, but had trouble with some of the better heavyweights, losing to Zora Folley, and being KO'd by Doug Jones, Ernie Terrell, Joe Frazier, and Muhammad Ali. I think that a prime Jimmy Ellis would also have taken Foster at heavyweight, and maybe at light heavyweight as well.

BTW, Bob Foster is in the IBHOF.

[HomicideHenry]

Scypion, you're argument reminds me of the interview I had with Marvin Camel. When he won the CW title, he was in this unique position to have challenged for the LHW or HW title. He did neither of course.

But it's interesting to imagine "What if Marvin Camel in 1979-1980 fought for the LHW title?", when Victor Galindez and Marvin Johnson was champion. Johnson had beaten Mate Parlov in '78, and it was Parlov-Camel who decided the first CW champion in '79-'80.

I think had Camel campaigned at LHW & CW he would have successfully pulled it off. Had he done so he'd be remembered more than as a foot note in boxing history. Instead he fought Carlos DeLeon, losing the title by majority decision and his career went downhill from there.

Unfortunately we'll never know all the what ifs because they never happened. Jimmy Ellis very well could have been the LHW champion, but, I tend to think there was too much competition there in the 60s--- his record at the weight isn't really that impressive, losing decisions to Rubin Carter, George Benton and Don Fullmer.

His abilities were better suited to HW where opponents were slower and power orientated throwing one punch at a time instead of combinations.

[Scypion]

Scypion, you're argument reminds me of the interview I had with Marvin Camel. When he won the CW title, he was in this unique position to have challenged for the LHW or HW title. He did neither of course.

But it's interesting to imagine "What if Marvin Camel in 1979-1980 fought for the LHW title?", when Victor Galindez and Marvin Johnson was champion. Johnson had beaten Mate Parlov in '78, and it was Parlov-Camel who decided the first CW champion in '79-'80.

I think had Camel campaigned at LHW & CW he would have successfully pulled it off. Had he done so he'd be remembered more than as a foot note in boxing history. Instead he fought Carlos DeLeon, losing the title by majority decision and his career went downhill from there.

Unfortunately we'll never know all the what ifs because they never happened. Jimmy Ellis very well could have been the LHW champion, but, I tend to think there was too much competition there in the 60s--- his record at the weight isn't really that impressive, losing decisions to Rubin Carter, George Benton and Don Fullmer.

His abilities were better suited to HW where opponents were slower and power orientated throwing one punch at a time instead of combinations.

Thanks for the response Homicide.

Ellis' defeats to Carter, Benton, and Fullmer were at middleweight. In my humble opinion. I think that it was a mistake for Jimmy to fight as a middleweight. Jimmy was listed at 6 foot one inch, which is too tall to fight at 160 IMO. Ellis looked too thin in those middleweight fights

Anyway, Jimmy only had one fight at light heavyweight at 176 lbs., but fought as a heavyweight after that. I think that Ellis could have stayed at light heavyweight if he wanted to, but thought he could make more money at heavyweight.

I think that his only real hurdle at light heavyweight would have been Bob Foster. JMO.

[HomicideHenry]

My apologies, you're correct. Those were middleweight bouts. As for the 70s LHW division, I don't know. Even guys like Jerry Evans the Byrdstown Bomber weren't pushovers.

The top ten (more or less) from '70-'75 was Bob Foster, John Conteh, Chris Finnegan, Victor Galindez, Vicente Rondon, Andy Kendall, Len Hutchins, Pierre Fourie, Gomeo Brennan, and Pat O'Connor.

Maybe Ellis could have been, but, I do tend to notice that when small speedy Heavyweights like Ellis fight similar opponents to themselves--- they almost always come up short. I go to someone like Patterson, who was initially 175 and he got robbed against Ellis.

Now Floyd was an old man then. So I don't know how well Ellis would have done with similar styled guys all at their best--- it'd of been interesting if Foster had fought Ellis at Heavyweight.

[Scypion]

My apologies, you're correct. Those were middleweight bouts. As for the 70s LHW division, I don't know. Even guys like Jerry Evans the Byrdstown Bomber weren't pushovers.

The top ten (more or less) from '70-'75 was Bob Foster, John Conteh, Chris Finnegan, Victor Galindez, Vicente Rondon, Andy Kendall, Len Hutchins, Pierre Fourie, Gomeo Brennan, and Pat O'Connor.

Maybe Ellis could have been, but, I do tend to notice that when small speedy Heavyweights like Ellis fight similar opponents to themselves--- they almost always come up short. I go to someone like Patterson, who was initially 175 and he got robbed against Ellis.

Now Floyd was an old man then. So I don't know how well Ellis would have done with similar styled guys all at their best--- it'd of been interesting if Foster had fought Ellis at Heavyweight.

I wish they had made that fight in 1969, Ellis vs. Foster. It would have been the WBA Heavyweight Champion against the Light Heavyweight Champion. Judging how Foster did against other heavyweights, I would take Ellis in that one.

Floyd Patterson was another boxer that could have been Light Heavyweight Champion, if he chose to stay in that division, but he did pretty well as a heavyweight, at least until he fought Liston.

[Scypion]

Getting back to the Ellis/Johansson fight, Angelo Dundee could have been a factor. He may have had a strategy to help Jimmy Ellis avoid Ingo's bingo, and may have got it in the contract that the ring be larger than normal and the gloves bigger.

A bigger ring probably would not make much different in that fight, but bigger gloves could take some of the sting off of Johansson's big right hand punch. It could also take something from Ellis' punches, but if it came down to a boxing match, then I believe that Jimmy Ellis would have had the advantage. Dundee has been known to get things like a bigger ring and bigger gloves into the contracts of some of his boxer's fights.

Also, Ellis was taller than Patterson. In fact, Jimmy was taller than Ingemar too. So, Johansson would be punching up against Ellis rather than down as against Patterson. According to laws of physics, a down punch, everything equal, is harder than an up punch. A minor point, but I agree with Homicide Henry that Jimmy Ellis could take a punch better than Floyd Patterson could. Jimmy Ellis was never even knocked down prior to his 1970 fight against Joe Frazier.

[scorpio83]

Getting back to the Ellis/Johansson fight, Angelo Dundee could have been a factor. He may have had a strategy to help Jimmy Ellis avoid Ingo's bingo, and may have got it in the contract that the ring be larger than normal and the gloves bigger.

A bigger ring probably would not make much different in that fight, but bigger gloves could take some of the sting off of Johansson's big right hand punch. It could also take something from Ellis' punches, but if it came down to a boxing match, then I believe that Jimmy Ellis would have had the advantage. Dundee has been known to get things like a bigger ring and bigger gloves into the contracts of some of his boxer's fights.

Also, Ellis was taller than Patterson. In fact, Jimmy was taller than Ingemar too. So, Johansson would be punching up against Ellis rather than down as against Patterson. According to laws of physics, a down punch, everything equal, is harder than an up punch. A minor point, but I agree with Homicide Henry that Jimmy Ellis could take a punch better than Floyd Patterson could. Jimmy Ellis was never even knocked down prior to his 1970 fight against Joe Frazier.

Scypion, Jimmy Ellis was knocked down against Rubin "Hurricane" Carter in 1964 when Ellis fought as a middleweight. However, nice analysis on the possible outcome between Ellis and Johansson.

[Scypion]

Getting back to the Ellis/Johansson fight, Angelo Dundee could have been a factor. He may have had a strategy to help Jimmy Ellis avoid Ingo's bingo, and may have got it in the contract that the ring be larger than normal and the gloves bigger.

A bigger ring probably would not make much different in that fight, but bigger gloves could take some of the sting off of Johansson's big right hand punch. It could also take something from Ellis' punches, but if it came down to a boxing match, then I believe that Jimmy Ellis would have had the advantage. Dundee has been known to get things like a bigger ring and bigger gloves into the contracts of some of his boxer's fights.

Also, Ellis was taller than Patterson. In fact, Jimmy was taller than Ingemar too. So, Johansson would be punching up against Ellis rather than down as against Patterson. According to laws of physics, a down punch, everything equal, is harder than an up punch. A minor point, but I agree with Homicide Henry that Jimmy Ellis could take a punch better than Floyd Patterson could. Jimmy Ellis was never even knocked down prior to his 1970 fight against Joe Frazier.

Scypion, Jimmy Ellis was knocked down against Rubin "Hurricane" Carter in 1964 when Ellis fought as a middleweight. However, nice analysis on the possible outcome between Ellis and Johansson.

You are right. I read someplace that he had never been knocked down until his fight with Frazier. Can't believe everything you read I guess. Thanks for the correction and the compliment.

Another point about the proposed Johansson fight: Floyd Patterson only weighed 182 lbs. for his first fight with Ingemar, and was stopped. Floyd weighed 190 for his second Ingo fight and 194 for the 3rd bout. I believe that the extra weight helped Patterson withstand Johansson's power punches in the second and third fights of their series.

Angelo Dundee was well aware of weight when it came to boxing, and I am pretty sure that he would have had Jimmy Ellis weigh in at around 200 lbs. for his fights with Ingemar Johansson. So, another reason to believe that Ellis may have avoided a KO at the hands of Johansson.

[Scypion]

I was not one of the people surprised that Floyd Patterson had such a good fight against Jimmy Ellis. I thought that Patterson was still as good as anyone outside of Sonny Liston and Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier, even though he was 33. Those guys were bigger than Floyd and were super great fighters.

I didn't know that much about Ellis at that time. I figured that he was a friend of Muhammad Ali's and was one of Dundee's stable of boxers. I didn't think he was better than Patterson, even though Floyd was past his prime. Besides, Patterson looked pretty good against Chuvalo after his Liston fights.

I have come to have more respect for Jimmy Ellis' boxing ability. Ellis was very fast and had a good chin, only stopped by Frazier, Ali, and Shavers. As far as I am concerned, Jimmy Ellis was a great fighter that happened to fight in a tough era.