Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 12 May 2006, 11:33

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzWynvBL ... y%20liston

If yes, why?

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 12 May 2006, 11:48

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoNU0ty4 ... y%20Liston

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 12 May 2006, 11:49

No... I just think that Sonny was so dominant before that nobody could believe he lost. If he'd have wnated to throw the fight he would not have done it in such a suspicious manner.

There is something odd about the fights but I think everyone looks for a reason when the great intimidators lose.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 12 May 2006, 12:12

Ezzard wrote:No... I just think that Sonny was so dominant before that nobody could believe he lost. If he'd have wnated to throw the fight he would not have done it in such a suspicious manner.

There is something odd about the fights but I think everyone looks for a reason when the great intimidators lose.

To me it looks like a pretty obvious dive. Ali hit him with nothing (we talk about fight 2).

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 12 May 2006, 12:24

Maybe yes on one hand and certainly no on the other.....no not for money or any "outside" influence but perhaps yes when the question is asked..."did he give all he could?" For internal reasons he seemed to not want to give it his best effort.

Remember he quit on his stool the first time so his heart has to be questioned...that is if you question Kostya's decision not to finish or if you Question Vitali's decision not to finish. The first fight shows some willingness to compromise when it came to effort. The second just shows it in perhaps a more blatant form. Maybe he didnt' want to take the whuppin that was certainly coming one way or another.

Sometimes fighter's try to get out of these things without taking what they know is likely to be coming. (Like avoiding a bowel spill) I think Tyson biting Evander's ear could be considered "a dive" I suppose. Since it spelled the fight's end.

A whuppin was comin and indeed had already commenced and Liston found himself down unexpectedly. He may have calculated his odds and said forget it. Quite frankly he was overmatched IMHO.

By the way some of us think he took a good shot to the temple that just disoriented him in honest fashion and he couldn't quite pull himself together in time.

Remember how Foreman pulled himself up to finish off Lyle? Now that's heart and determination which I don't think his mentor Liston ever had. If Foreman wouldnt have made it up no one would have questioned him, but that was a huge obvious shot he took from Lyle.

If any of you have ever experienced a shot to the temple it don't take much to discombobulate you. It's literally an Achilles heal of the head along with the throat and jaw. The button area of it is not a huge target and is typcially pretty well defended by most fighters. But that looks pretty direct and has Liston's weight pretty well utilized, it probably was just a lucky pinpoint shot with perfect weight dynamics.

Did it have the additional benefit of a Liston that lacked confidence? Maybe

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 12 May 2006, 12:29

Great post BB, and I agree 100%.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 12 May 2006, 14:35

Decagon wrote:Liston, right before he died, said that he could have gotten up, but that he didn't because Ali was "crazy."

In fact he did get up, just a few seconds too late. Of course why should he have bothered to get up when that “crazy” MF was gonna kick his ass again.

That Liston was some tough SOB.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 12 May 2006, 15:03

Whether it was a dive, scared of the Muslims, Walcott screwing up the count etc.

The KO was not legit, period.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 12 May 2006, 15:27

It was a legit knockdown, not knockout. I beleive most of the blame should be centered to Walcott being one of the crappiest referees ever.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 12 May 2006, 15:28

dempseyfire wrote:Whether it was a dive, scared of the Muslims, Walcott screwing up the count etc.

The KO was not legit, period.

Regardless, he had NO chance of ever beating Ali. Poor footspeed, average handspeed (at best) and a questionable heart are not good credentials to bring into the ring against Ali.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 12 May 2006, 15:34

I dont think anyone put the arm on Liston to throw the fights. However I do believe he quit in both of them. Only he knows why and hes not saying.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 12 May 2006, 15:48

The Great John L wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:Whether it was a dive, scared of the Muslims, Walcott screwing up the count etc.

The KO was not legit, period.
Regardless, he had NO chance of ever beating Ali. Poor footspeed, average handspeed (at best) and a questionable heart are not good credentials to bring into the ring against Ali.

Their first fight was actually quite competetive (Ali was up one round at the time of the stoppage, and in that 6th round you'll even see Liston slip practically every punch Clay throws) and Liston was already past his prime. The Liston of 1958 vs Clay I see as a very competetive matchup. Liston at his best had decent handspeed, very good upper-body movement and reflexes, and very good stamina.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 12 May 2006, 16:31

dempseyfire....Liston got a free round and couldnt do a thing with it. And if you noticed Liston's face at the end of the fight sitting on the stool.....It doesnt tell the story of a guy who was truly fighting a "competitive" fight.

Liston's "good looks" had take a pretty good beating and even with the "blind" round Ali was still lookin pretty.

Migz · Post by **Migz** » 13 May 2006, 01:36

There was a documentary shown here in Australia, about this matter in the second fight they show a virtual close up to the actuall punch in the second fight it hit Liston on the chin but it doesnt look like much to put him down like that.....

mrbassie · Post by **mrbassie** » 13 May 2006, 08:14

yes and no: it was a flash knockdown, Liston could have gotten up but for whatever reason he chose not to, he always maintained he stayed down until Ali finally went to the neutral corner so as not to be hit while rising which is plausable at least.
All blame for the fiasco which that fight was lies with Walcott and not Liston, the fight should have been allowed to continue.

zojo · Post by **zojo** » 13 May 2006, 11:37

A buddy of mine was actually at the fight in Lewiston. He told me that he truly felt (and still feels) that Liston took a dive.

Secondly, I read a source years ago that stated that Liston was very afraid to get in the ring that night. Remember, the fight was supposed to take place in the Boston Garden. However, because it was so close to the assassination of Malcolm X, authorities in Boston were afraid someone was going to try to kill Ali during the fight. Sonny wanted NO part of being in the ring that night in case someone started shooting.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 13 May 2006, 12:34

zojo, wrote:A buddy of mine was actually at the fight in Lewiston. He told me that he truly felt (and still feels) that Liston took a dive.

Secondly, I read a source years ago that stated that Liston was very afraid to get in the ring that night. Remember, the fight was supposed to take place in the Boston Garden. However, because it was so close to the assassination of Malcolm X, authorities in Boston were afraid someone was going to try to kill Ali during the fight. Sonny wanted NO part of being in the ring that night in case someone started shooting.

I don't agree with any conspiracy on this, but it's certainly not beyond possibility, and who wants to get all beat up and then caught in the crossfire and shot on the same day?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 13 May 2006, 18:24

The first fight was on the level. Liston was certainly to win. He saw that he was outclassed and quit. (Of course if he knew that one judge had it even and one actually had him ahead he might not have quit!)

I have come to the conclusion that he took a dive in the second fight.
( I am very skpetical about stories about fighters taking a dive).
Some say it was a flash kncokdown, that he could have gotten up but Ali was standing over him and that the referee should have moved Ali away and shouldn't have stopped the fight. (He did so becasue Nat Fliescher told him to. Fliescher had no official capacity at all. Walcott should have ignored him. Of course he never should have turned away from the two fighters in the first place.)

However, if that was the case, why didn't Liston complain about Walcott stopping the fight? If he really had wanted to continue, he would have been outraged and complained about it.

Ragardless, he wouldn't have beaten Ali anyway.

Kid Skid · Post by **Kid Skid** » 13 May 2006, 22:42

The implication of the word Dive is that a fighter who possesses the ability to win a fight intentionally performs below par. I, along with others on this thread, do not believe for a minute that Liston had the ability to beat Ali in the second fight. What went thaough Listons mind after the knock down is anyone's guess. Whatever the reason, he chose to quit.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 13 May 2006, 23:54

Kid Skid wrote:The implication of the word Dive is that a fighter who possesses the ability to win a fight intentionally performs below par. I, along with others on this thread, do not believe for a minute that Liston had the ability to beat Ali in the second fight. What went thaough Listons mind after the knock down is anyone's guess. Whatever the reason, he chose to quit.

Well the shot may have shaken his confidence but yep if they would have told him to keep going he could have kept going.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 14 May 2006, 01:52

Sonny was on his feet fighting when the bout was stopped.

It was Jersey Joe that cocked it all up.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 14 May 2006, 10:50

I voted NO, but I believe Liston quit in both fights. I know I'll draw some fire for saying this, but I think the air of invincibility that surrounded Sonny Liston, was one of the biggest myths in the history of boxing. He scored some impressive knockouts over some top contenders, but the likes of Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley and Roy Harris, certainly not all time greats, had been Ko'd before. The media built Liston up to be a monster, who scared his opponents half the death before they even stepped in the ring with him. In Muhammad Ali, he finally ran into a guy who would beat him on his best night 10 times out of 10, and he crumbled. Ali, took his best shots, fought on while temporarily blinded, and it just broke Sonny's will. Liston was a bully, and in the end, he didn't even have the heart of a Tyson.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 14 May 2006, 11:03

Seamus wrote:I voted NO, but I believe Liston quit in both fights. I know I'll draw some fire for saying this, but I think the air of invincibility that surrounded Sonny Liston, was one of the biggest myths in the history of boxing. He scored some impressive knockouts over some top contenders, but the likes of Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley and Roy Harris, certainly not all time greats, had been Ko'd before. The media built Liston up to be a monster, who scared his opponents half the death before they even stepped in the ring with him. In Muhammad Ali, he finally ran into a guy who would beat him on his best night 10 times out of 10, and he crumbled. Ali, took his best shots, fought on while temporarily blinded, and it just broke Sonny's will. Liston was a bully, and in the end, he didn't even have the heart of a Tyson.

That probably captures it, I just don't discount that the knockdown was for real and a bit disorienting for Liston. And Floyd (may he rest in peace) did give quite a bit of lustre to Sonny's rep at the time. So it was mystifiying to the public. But when one thinks of what we learned via Tyson it doesn't seem so mysterious. It was just too early in our culture for someone to pull a dramatic "ear biter" type drama. Who know's what's next in terms of what future bullies will pull to save face in sports events. Six Heads lewis just used "I had to go the the bathroom" as an excuse. Used to be that fighters were pretty much silent when they "bowed out".

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 14 May 2006, 13:51

Liston couldn't do anything b/c he REALLY did tear his shoulder that 5th round. The Ali myth that Liston just quit and made up the injury is false. There were several doctor's reports that backed it up, and the way Liston fights from the middle of the 5th on is that of a guy who hurt his left shoulder.

He did what Vitali Klit did vs Byrd. You have the right to call that quitting but I don't neccesarily.

DrDuke · Post by **DrDuke** » 05 May 2018, 04:57

Wow, there's such thread here. An off-topic on this subject in the other thread made me look for this one. Interesting, for the moment the poll is 50 to 50.

Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?

Did Sonny Liston take a dive?

Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?

Re: Did Sonny Liston take a dive against Ali?