When Did Mike Tyson's Prime End?

[Controversial]

I would take anything he or his fans said about him wanting to retire after Spinks with a large pinch of salt. The serious money came his way for the 2nd Bruno fight, the 2 Holyfield fights and Lewis.

Well he didn't retire so obviously not that serious but its a sign that all wasn't well, he was hardly the most level headed person in the world as it was. Big $$$ are a huge draw and often the only incentive to carry on boxing for many.

Exactly!!!

And it was that mental fragility that would never allow him to beat fighters of the calibre of Douglas, Holy, or Lewis, no matter what stage of his career. Knocking over the likes of Bruno, Thomas, Tubbs, Biggs et al, does not prepare you for meeting constant resistance from top class fighters who WANT to beat the shite out of you, as opposed to merely survive.

I don’t agree, he didn’t collapse mentally with Douglas or with Lewis. Holyfield he imploded in the rematch not in the first fight. I think he definitely had some sort of mental health issue though.

[Flump]

His prime essentially eroded when people started hitting him back. Until then he was largely devastating, with great timing and speed. The high point was Spinks but he was still prime IMO until the spell in prison, it was just that guys like Douglas and Ruddock were actually engaging him.

[Ambling Alp II]

I would take anything he or his fans said about him wanting to retire after Spinks with a large pinch of salt. The serious money came his way for the 2nd Bruno fight, the 2 Holyfield fights and Lewis.

He made over $20 million for the Spinks fight. That is serious money.
I will say that it is crybaby ecuses saying he was washed up when he fought Holyfield.

[Boxing Writer]

I would take anything he or his fans said about him wanting to retire after Spinks with a large pinch of salt. The serious money came his way for the 2nd Bruno fight, the 2 Holyfield fights and Lewis.

He made over $20 million for the Spinks fight. That is serious money.
I will say that it is crybaby ecuses saying he was washed up when he fought Holyfield.

I don't know for sure what the Bruno purse was but I think the Holy purses were more than Spinks, and I know for a fact the Lewis one was.

Spinks earned $13.5 million for that fight.
Bruno earned $6 million for rematch with Tyson.
Holyfield earned $11 million for the first fight and $35 millon (guaranteed) for the rematch
Lewis earned $17.5 million guaranteed and probably $8 to $12 million more as his % from PPV.

[Boxing Writer]

I don't know for sure what the Bruno purse was but I think the Holy purses were more than Spinks, and I know for a fact the Lewis one was.

Spinks earned $13.5 million for that fight.
Bruno earned $6 million for rematch with Tyson.
Holyfield earned $11 million for the first fight and $35 millon (guaranteed) for the rematch
Lewis earned $17.5 million guaranteed and probably $8 to $12 million more as his % from PPV.

I must have written it wrongly. I meant what was Tysons share in those fights?

Bruno-2 - $30 million
Holyfield-1 - $30 million
Holyfield-2 - $30 million
Lewis - the same as Lennox. $17.5 million guaranteed + $8 to $12 million more as a % from PPV

[Controversial]

Exactly!!!

And it was that mental fragility that would never allow him to beat fighters of the calibre of Douglas, Holy, or Lewis, no matter what stage of his career. Knocking over the likes of Bruno, Thomas, Tubbs, Biggs et al, does not prepare you for meeting constant resistance from top class fighters who WANT to beat the shite out of you, as opposed to merely survive.

I don’t agree, he didn’t collapse mentally with Douglas or with Lewis. Holyfield he imploded in the rematch not in the first fight. I think he definitely had some sort of mental health issue though.

I haven't mentioned imploding. I am talking about having the mental strength to come through serious adversity, and Douglas, and Holyfield PROVED that Tyson lacked it. So too did Lewis, though Tyson fans will say he was shot by then.

And I will never accept that Ruddock was anywhere near the class of either Douglas or Holyfield, so those 2 fights against the Canadian don't really count. The big difference is Tyson was hitting Ruddock, and he kept coming back for more. In the case of Douglas, Holy, and Lewis they were hitting him first, and more often.

I still don't fully agree. There was a marked difference with Tyson in the Douglas and Ruddock fights. He looked up for it against Ruddock, he fought like he wanted it, he wanted to win. He didn't look like that against Douglas. Whatever you think if Rudduck he was a big hard hitting opponent that many didn't want to fight.

My personal opinion on Holyfield at that time was that he had some 'help'. To go from looking like a shot fighter and retiring due to heart problems (allegedly linked to growth hormone use) to someone who literally took Tysons best shots without even flinching looks highly suspicious to me.

Lewis I think would have always beaten him but I also think Tyson was past it when they fought, he was 36, a good stone over his normal weight and fairly inactive in the years running up to the fight. Tyson didn't have the style or lifestyle for a long running career.

[Controversial]

. He looked up for it against Ruddock, he fought like he wanted it, he wanted to win. He didn't look like that against Douglas. Whatever you think if Rudduck he was a big hard hitting opponent that many didn't want to fight.

You are always going to look " up for it " if you are outlanding the other guy 2 or 3 to 1. Which was exactly the case with Douglas. He made Tyson look limited under pressure, for the simple reason he was limited under pressure.

The first person to expose those limitations was Smith just by constantly tying Tyson up. Not pretty but effective, because he didn't know how to get out of it, other than wait for the ref to break them apart. Next up was Tucker in the exposure department. All Douglas needed to do was take his natural superior ability to those 2 and apply it well. I suspect by the 8th round he didn't realise how easy it would be, and got over confident and walked into that uppercut. However by upping the pace in the next round and fighting clever he soon closed the show.

As for Ruddock, he was big and hit hard with his left hand only, other than that he was clueless. As I said, a level slightly above Bruno.

I meant in the build up, his ring walk, his whole demeanour going into the fight with Ruddock. He was listless against Douglas, no urgency or fire in his belly. Ruddock was his first big test after losing and his showed he could take big shots and fire back, he still took more punches than he used to, but he consistently took big punches from Ruddock and didn't give up, retreat or go into his shell. That isn't someone who buckles under pressure. Douglas fought a great fight, and showed the way to beat Tyson, but he beat a very poorly prepared Tyson which shouldn't be forgotten. Douglas was pretty unprepared and not up for the Holyfield fight and looked what happened then, it makes a difference.

[oogiebe]

It peaked with the Michael Spinks fight.

[evrenb]

It peaked with the Michael Spinks fight.

Agree..or even earlier

[oogiebe]

It peaked with the Michael Spinks fight.

Agree..or even earlier

[ewenhay]

It peaked with the Michael Spinks fight.

Definitely.

The motivation started slipping after that and the ego took over. He was never the same. And the Givens marriage also contributed significantly.

[oogiebe]

It peaked with the Michael Spinks fight.

Definitely.

The motivation started slipping after that and the ego took over. He was never the same. And the Givens marriage also contributed significantly.

Givens came from a long line of gold-diggers. Her mom (Ruth Roper) sued MLB great Dave Winfield for giving her the clap.

[Abradolf Lincler]

The shortest prime in history according to most.

Not really. 2-3 years isn't exactly short given the right perspective. How long did Henry Armstrong's prime last?

[JxhDel.]

Holyfield's KO and the the second layoff due to being DQed, were the beginning of the end

[Ambling Alp II]

This is a tough question. I went with the middle of the road position, after the Ruddock fights.
He had more tough fights before Douglas than people seem to realize.
The 2nd Bruno fight was one of the best of his career. However, in general, he obviously was not as impressive after being off for so long.

[oogiebe]

It peaked with the Michael Spinks fight.

[Caractacus]

When the interview with Barbara Walters with his then wife first aired in September 1988.
Man, that was almost painful to watch,you could feel him collapse on the inside
for being set up like that for National Television.

[Caractacus]

Mike Tyson discusses the interview with Barbara Walters ( and how it affected him)beginning at about 21:00 of this clip.

[Syntax Error]

His skillset diminished after Spinks because he was arrogant, wealthy and believed his own hype, but he was still in his prime until he went to prison the first time in '92.

When he returned in '95, he was past his best, but still relatively dangerous up until about '96, but Holyfield ruined him and virtually bullied any fight Tyson had left out him.

As we all know, he served a ban for his cowardice, returned briefly before being jailed again for a short period but by that time in late '99, Iron Mike Tyson was dead.

Any fights after this time were meaningless.

[oogiebe]

His skillset diminished after Spinks because he was arrogant, wealthy and believed his own hype, but he was still in his prime until he went to prison the first time in '92.

When he returned in '95, he was past his best, but still relatively dangerous up until about '96, but Holyfield ruined him and virtually bullied any fight Tyson had left out him.

As we all know, he served a ban for his cowardice, returned briefly before being jailed again for a short period but by that time in late '99, Iron Mike Tyson was dead.

Any fights after this time were meaningless.

So if his skillset diminished after Spinks, for whatever reason, then my statement stands.

[jas80s]

I thought he was already slipping some in the Spinks fight, it's just that it becomes obscured when he was able to unload a couple of heavy shots on a petrified opponent who was in full survival mode from the opening bell. I mean, no disrespect, but what can you tell from 90 seconds? Can you tell enough to say that was the best he ever fought? You can't really parse his performance, it was too short to tell anything other than a well timed right hand was enough to take out Michael Spinks.

The slide is readily evident in his next fight against Bruno where Tyson is starting to show the evidence of what would be his demise; walking straight in, not moving his head, and winging power shots without looking to set them up. Put Holyfield in the ring that night in 1988, and I will always believe that Tyson was more than ready to fight poorly. I'd say he was at his absolute best around the Berbick, Thomas, Biggs stretch in his career. He was still pursuing or JUST winning a title at that point so the desire was fully still there.

Don't get me wrong, the "pinnacle" of his career was the Spinks fight. It was a devastating KO of a superstar opponent in front of a ridiculously huge viewing audience. But, he was already on the slide as a fighter, just barely starting his descent, but he was on the descent from the mountain top.

[Abradolf Lincler]

He was in his prime until his opponents starting punching back. Watch the footage. The only thing you had to do to beat Mike was punch back. His first 37 opponents threw a combined total of zero punches. Douglas threw a couple punches, and Tyson folded. That's all you had to do to beat him. Punch back. Just like all you had to do with Duran was move. If you punched back, you beat Mike. If you shifted your feet, Duran quit.

This is what I've learned through 10+ years on boxing forums.

[Onetimeonly]

He was in his prime until his opponents starting punching back. Watch the footage. The only thing you had to do to beat Mike was punch back. His first 37 opponents threw a combined total of zero punches. Douglas threw a couple punches, and Tyson folded. That's all you had to do to beat him. Punch back. Just like all you had to do with Duran was move. If you punched back, you beat Mike. If you shifted your feet, Duran quit.

This is what I've learned through 10+ years on boxing forums.

I'd add if you lost to Floyd may weather you were not prime under any circumstances.

[Ambling Alp II]

Let's not moved this into yet another "Floyd" thread.
Anyway, are really now moving Tyson' prime to before Spinks?
He looked as good against Ruddock as he did against Bonecrusher Smith. Ultimately, saying Tyson's prime ended so early is really making excuses so people can say he was the best ever in his prime, or at least better than someone else that he wasn't.

[Onetimeonly]

What those Tyson fans can't accept is he was not an instinctual fighter. His head movement was part of the programmed attack. The givens stuff annoys me to no end. In relationship problems I've encountered working out was the one release of positive energy I could count on. Being able to punch someone would make it even better. No Tyson beats that Douglas.