Black Period Revised

[Caractacus]

If one reads THE CANTERBURY TALES, it lists the occupations of various people in the story. One of the characters was a "Begging Friar" who was described, in part, as being "brawny as a prizefighter." Now, these stories were written in 1387.

Interesting stuff, but on this bit, it worth noting, atleast around the early 1700's, prize-fighter was being used to mean basically sword-fighter, and not really applied to boxing.

Puglists back then was also known as a "Bruiser".
as a matter of fact back then (during the Regency Period 1811-1830) it was even fashionable for young people/young adults to dress like them,
with short cropped hair,wearing vast swathes of neck-cloth,a sash,skin tight boots and pantaloons
whilst walking around with a swagger.
sound familiar ?

[HomicideHenry]

I will add that here in America, that prizefights happened well before the 1800s. Alot of them were wrestling contests--- there's one here in my neck of the woods (Shelby, Logan, Auglaize) Ohio where an Indian known as Kalositah broke the legs of white & black opponents. That was as late as 1832, but the Ohio Valley was a tremendous place for such things because the Ohio River, Mississippi, The Miami Rivers, etc all interconnected as far West as Missouri and all the way to the Gulf and Canada.

So you had Irishmen, Frenchmen, Spainard's, etc of different styles matching up. Boxing was no exception. I think the earliest written fist fights in America go well beyond George Washington--- who in his youth was a prodigious wrestler & pugilist.

Tom Mulineaux, most notably, began his career (if you can call it that) in around 1810-1815. Bill Richmond before him, started his career in 1804 having come from America originally.



But clearly by the 1820s boxing was "all the rage" in America. The real question is just how early it was here--- and I'll argue probably as early as the 1490s-1520s when the continent was "open territory" for Italy, Spain, France, and England. Long before the continent was really settled many brave men traded up and down the river ways with the Indians and brought with them different styles of fighting.

[Senya13]

It depends on what you call boxing. There were a lot of rough-and-tumble fights in 19th century America that shouldn't be considered boxing matches. A lot of them resembled boxing, but also included things that were not allowed in the sport as it was understood from Broughton's time or thereabouts.

On a side note, I still haven't seen any proof of Broughton's rules existing before they were mentioned for the first time in one 1793 or 1794 publication, and it wasn't until 1820s that the newspapers began to mention that "Broughton's rules" were used for this or that bout.

[HomicideHenry]

I'd argue that the American fights were Boxing even if they were rough and tumble, only because America was still an untamed continent and most people simply were not connected to the Old World--- at least in the sense of Boxing advancing and keeping "up to date" with the latest innovations and rules.

Mind you, the Marquis of Queensbury rules were written in the 1860s but it wouldn't be until the 1880s that those rules became fashionable in America, so Britain already had the edge in progress.

Broughton's rules wouldn't come about until the 1790s as you mentioned--- but those were HIS RULES and not the standard rules of prizefights as a rule. That'd come later once his popularity grew and his fame peaked around 1830.

So, you have to figure, prior to that "rough and tumble" was the general rule unless both participants mutually agreed on certain terms, therefore rules varied from contest to contest. I've read quite a few matches where one man was bare fist and the other wore skin tight gloves, for example.

[HomicideHenry]

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/t ... 60967.html

Earlier I mentioned George Washington having been both a Boxing and Wrestling champion of Virginia, and it seems that the first President of the United States could very well have been the one who taught Tom Mulineaux how to fight.

[BitPlayer]

It depends on what you call boxing. There were a lot of rough-and-tumble fights in 19th century America that shouldn't be considered boxing matches. A lot of them resembled boxing, but also included things that were not allowed in the sport as it was understood from Broughton's time or thereabouts.

On a side note, I still haven't seen any proof of Broughton's rules existing before they were mentioned for the first time in one 1793 or 1794 publication, and it wasn't until 1820s that the newspapers began to mention that "Broughton's rules" were used for this or that bout.

The newspaper report of the fight between Johnson and Perrins suggests that the rules were still at that point agreed on fight to fight.

Derby Mercury - Thursday 22 October 1789
Johnson after this stood not at all manfully up to him, he fell without a blow, and Perrins’ friends immediately shouted Victory; but on appealing to the umpires, they decided it allowable, for the articles were not specifically against that conduct, only that they should fight fair and manly.

[Senya13]

As is well known, English immigrants coming to America in first half of 19th century, brought with them information about boxing as it was being practised in England, some of them became teachers, plus printed copies of Boxiana or re-prints of certain parts of it in newspapers/journals gave American people some knowledge about the rules and tactics, so not all fights were of rough-and-tumble kind, although with local criminality, the rules couldn't always be enforced even if they were agreed beforehand.

[Caractacus]

Did't President Abraham Lincoln ( born 1809)also wrestle when he was younger ?
I always remember hearing that story that he could extend his arm full out holding
the bottom of an axe extending straight out,something few people could do.

[HomicideHenry]

Did't President Abraham Lincoln ( born 1809)also wrestle when he was younger ?
I always remember hearing that story that he could extend his arm full out holding
the bottom of an axe extending straight out,something few people could do.

Yes. Lincoln was a practitioner of the "Collar and Elbow" style of wrestling that was most popular amongst Irish Immigrants. It's also known as "Box Wrestling". He apparently never lost a match, and his contest with a man named Bob Armstrong--- when Lincoln was working at a General Store--- is well noted as he literally choke slammed the man to get the victory.

Lincoln, apparently, was the strongest man in the area too as it's written that he was able to lift something like 1,200 pounds--- his wirey frame was mistaken for weakness but he was one helluva hoss.

[Caractacus]

Abraham Lincoln was known as the "Rail-Splitter.
The part of the country(West Virginia,Ohio,Kentucky ,) was when he was young like one big forest,
described as like being in a cathedral.
all the trees had to be chopped down and stumps removed to make land for the fields to plough to farm.

[Caractacus]

hey check out the post just did at venues and clubs thread that may date back around this time.

[HomicideHenry]

Abraham Lincoln was known as the "Rail-Splitter.
The part of the country(West Virginia,Ohio,Kentucky ,) was when he was young like one big forest,
described as like being in a cathedral.
all the trees had to be chopped down and stumps removed to make land for the fields to plough to farm.

Tough men and women all the way around back then. Here in Ohio where I'm at, 150 years ago, was nothing but a dense forest and the interior was the Black Swamp which went from Central Ohio to Indiana, nearly touching Michigan. To think that in a generation it was turned into farmland is phenomenal--- the sheer amount of work common ordinary people did.

Reminds me of a book I read that said (paraphrasing here), "In those days you couldn't whip a farmer let alone a prizefighter," because all day long it was hard manual labor plowing fields by hand, let alone chopping enough wood to get through winter.

[Caractacus]

hey, I found what looks to be another artists version of it (uless this one was what T.Blake based his painting on.
Apparently it is or was the most famous boxing illustraion ever.
Jack Randal vrs Ned Turner at the Fives Court in Little St. Martin's Street London in 1818.


https://www.sandersofoxford.com/shop/pr ... xing-match

[HomicideHenry]

hey,I'm a Buckeye too !but haven't been back in years (seventh generation on my Mom's side)

Lol, I remember because of our Luther McCarty research. We both are from Sidney. My mom's people were in Ohio well before the 1800s. They married into the Native Americans that once were.

If you look up "The History of Auglaize County", you'll see a section mentioning the Van Blaricome's who did illegal whiskey trading--- my mom's people married them, and it was certainly beneficial because of our Native relations.

Turtle Creek township was where the family was based--- but they traveled as far North as Cass County Michigan which was also a Native reservation. Mom has the Native look, I don't, but never the less.

I do alot of local history researching. I grew up around Fort Loramie & Minster, but I've lived all over Logan, Shelby, Darke, etc. When the weather permits, I'd like to go to Paulding County, where the Charloe Reservation was--- alot of mom's ancestors lived there.

[Caractacus]

I think my Grandmother's parents or her grandparents farm was located at or near a strange sounding place called
Hog's Back Road or Ridge
at some point they lost the farm during the Great Depression and moved to Thornville Ohio in Licking County and then into Columbus.
any places named that around there still ?

[HomicideHenry]

I wonder... Did you become a fan of the "Tallest Man" website because of our local history of giant bones?

I remember when SEARCH FOR THE LOST GIANTS was on the History Channel, and I sent them local history documents on the seven foot tall skeletons found just outside of Hardin along the riverbank.

I tracked down the bones to California, but lost track of the descendants of the doctor from Hardin who had them.

Auglaize County also had giant bones.

[Caractacus]

actually Thornville is in Perry County.
We had all this info in my grandmother's family bible
but when my mother passed away in 2011 ,helping "Friends" of my older sister
helped themselves to just about everything of value at the house and in storage when
no one was around to sop it.
they took the Family Bible too.

[Caractacus]

I wonder... Did you become a fan of the "Tallest Man" website because of our local history of giant bones?

I remember when SEARCH FOR THE LOST GIANTS was on the History Channel, and I sent them local history documents on the seven foot tall skeletons found just outside of Hardin along the riverbank.

I tracked down the bones to California, but lost track of the descendants of the doctor from Hardin who had them.

Auglaize County also had giant bones.

the Mastodon was my favorite prehistoric animal when I was a kid because so many
of their bones had been dredged up in the bogs in Ohio.
Bogs always seemed mysterious to me,too bad most in Ohio had to be drained.

[HomicideHenry]

I think my Grandmother's parents or her grandparents farm was located at or near a strange sounding place called
Hog's Back Road or Ridge
at some point they lost the farm during the Great Depression and moved to Thornville Ohio in Licking County and then into Columbus.
any places named that around there still ?

There's alot of places with that name but the most prominent is Hogsback Ridge Park in around Madison Ohio. Very pretty place. There's alot of places in Ohio, unfortunately, that are nothing more than ghost town's but "once upon a time" were major highways and byways.

Some parts of Ohio are still dense and it's rather breathtaking how much our ancestors accomplished--- Southern Ohio is a glimpse of what it once was. Lol, alot of those places are kinda scary because it looks like a place where bigfoot would live.

[HomicideHenry]

actually Thornville is in Perry County.
We had all this info in my grandmother's family bible
but when my mother passed away in 2011 ,helping "Friends" of my older sister
helped themselves to just about everything of value at the house and in storage when
no one was around to sop it.
they took the Family Bible too.

That sucks!

I wonder... Did you become a fan of the "Tallest Man" website because of our local history of giant bones?

I remember when SEARCH FOR THE LOST GIANTS was on the History Channel, and I sent them local history documents on the seven foot tall skeletons found just outside of Hardin along the riverbank.

I tracked down the bones to California, but lost track of the descendants of the doctor from Hardin who had them.

Auglaize County also had giant bones.

the Mastodon was my favorite prehistoric animal when I was a kid because so many
of their bones had been dredged up in the bogs in Ohio.
Bogs always seemed mysterious to me,too bad most in Ohio had to be drained.

Logan county had a lot of mammoth bones. But there's also many burial mounds all over the state. Even Piqua and Indian Lake has some. But I do know human skeletons of large size have been found all over Ohio--- and so ancient that many of them crumbled to dust upon being unearthed.

I believe archaeologists have called them "archaic people" because next to nothing is known of them and they pre-dated the Paleo Indians who were the ancestors of modern Native Americans.

Old books on early Ohio says that the whites assumed the Native Americans built the mounds, but the tribes insisted that they existed before them and were built by a race of giants who they warred with and drove into the Mississippi valley.

[HomicideHenry]

Anyways, to get back on track a bit...

Following the Dark Period:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZXg9A ... on&f=false


A pretty interesting book written in 1909 and for free viewership online chronicling from Figg to Johnson. Thought I'd share.

Anyways...

As I said before, all fights, had mixtures of everything. Boxing or not, this is how the sport generally was in America prior to the 1800s. There was no uniform rules--- just what you agreed on. "Fighting Fair" (no biting, gouging, etc) was oftentimes not done.

The Quaker Thomas Ashe, gave a detailed description of a melee between a Virginian and a Kentuckian in his travelogue, Travels in America (London, 1809), The two had agreed to "tear and rend" one another - to rough-and-tumble - rather than "fight fair". Ashe elaborated what this meant: "You startle at the words tear and rend, and again do not understand me. You have heard these terms, I allow, applied to beasts of prey and to carnivorous animals; and your humanity cannot conceive them applicable to man: It nevertheless is so, and the fact will not permit me the use of any less expressive term."

Ashe goes on to describe what can only be described as truly ultimate fighting. It was the size and power of the Kentuckian against the science and craft of the Virginian. After exchanging cautious throws and blows, suddenly the Virginian lunged at his opponent:

"The shock received by the Kentuckyan, and the want of breath, brought him instantly to the ground. The Virginian never lost his hold; like those bats of the South who never quit the subject on which they fasten until they taste blood, he kept his knees in his enemy's body; fixing his claws in his hair, and his thumbs on his eyes, gave them an instantaneous start from their sockets. The sufferer roared aloud, but uttered no complaint. The citizens again shouted with joy. Doubts were no longer entertained and bets of three to one were offered on the Virginian. "

The crowd roared its approval as the fight continued. The Kentuckian grabbed his smaller opponent and held him in a tight bear hug, forcing the Virginian to relinquish his facial grip. Over and over the two rolled, until, getting the Virginian under him, the big man "snapt off his nose so close to his face that no manner of projection remained." The Virginian quickly recovered, seized the Kentuckian's lower lip in his teeth, and ripped it down over his enemy's chin.

This was enough: "The Kentuckyan at length gave out, on which the people carried off the victor, and he preferring a triumph to a doctor, who came to cicatrize his face, suffered himself to be chaired round the ground as the champion of the times, and the first rougher-and-tumbler. The poor wretch, whose eyes were started from their spheres, and whose lip refused its office, returned to the town, to hide his impotence, and get his countenance repaired."

"Rough and tumble" was also commonly referred to as "no-holds-barred" or "tear and render". It was a brutal sport for hard people in a harsh land. One where the skill with which a fighter could pluck out the eyeball of an opponent was as celebrated by spectators as any knockout artist or submission expert was today.

The skill was so desired that exercises were devised to help practice the craft and many of the best gougers "fired their fingernails hard, honed them sharp, and oiled them slick". In fact the technique became so widespread that the "rough and tumble" also became known as "gouging".

[Senya13]

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZXg9A ... on&f=false
A pretty interesting book written in 1909 and for free viewership online chronicling from Figg to Johnson. Thought I'd share.

Barratt O'Hara just did what many others had done before him, they are repeating the same stuff about the bareknuckle period, that can be found in Boxiana and Pugilistica. He was born in 1882 and wrote sports for a few years in 1900s for St. Louis and Chicago newspapers. I highly doubt he saw any important heavyweight bouts held before 1902.

[HomicideHenry]

Probably not but... Most of History is "repeated"... I read it and found it to be a very good book that was pretty informative... My only knock on the book is that he didn't mention George Cooper who was the champion... Donnelly beat him, so he too should have been counted as a champion.

[Senya13]

George Cooper was a champion of what?

He also doesn't list Joe Wormald as champion, stating "In November, 1864, a newcomer, Joe Wormald, meets Andrew Marsden in a contest which they boldly advertise as being for the championship". The fight took place on Jan 4, 1865, and both Bell's Life in London and the Sporting Life considered it a championship fight.

[HomicideHenry]

George Cooper, was considered the champion because Tom Cribb retired after the two fights with Mulineaux. "The Black Ajax" challenged Donnelly, who refused because he told Mulineaux flat out, "Why would I want to fight a beaten man?", so he fought Cooper.

However, the fact that Cooper "let England down", made Cribb acknowledge Tom Spring as his successor to the title. Nevermind the fact Donnelly most likely would have beaten Spring and Cribb on the same night.

I think however, the reason for Cooper (and Prince Boswell and Posh Price) being so easily dismissed is because all three men were gypsies.