Jimmy Ellis vs Willie Pastrano

[Scypion]

Willie Pastrano was the Light Heavyweight Champion winning that championship from 35 year old Harold Johnson in a very close split decision in 1963. Pastrano fought heavyweight for about 4 years and was ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine until he lost 3 fights in a row to Brian London, Joe Erskine, and Alonzo Johnson in 1959. Pastrano also lost a fight to Roy "Cut and Shoot" Harris earlier and weighed over 190 lbs. for some of his fights at heavyweight. Willie then decided to fight in the light heavyweight division. Smart move by him.

Willie was pretty fast and clever and had a good chin, but was not a particularly hard hitter, with only 14 KO's in his 84 fight career. The punching power is where prime Jimmy Ellis would have a big advantage over prime Pastrano, IMO. Ellis was also very fast and as I see it could pretty much just tee off on Willie as a heavyweight and as a light heavyweight if Jimmy decided to stay in that division instead of moving up to heavyweight.

BTW, Willie Pastrano is in the IBHOF.

[Scypion]

Willie Pastrano had a sense of humor. He was taking a pretty bad beating in his bout with Jose Torres and after a particularly bad round, the referee asked Pastrano if he knew who and where he was. Willie replied, "I am Willie Pastrano and I am getting my ass kicked in Madison Square Garden."

I recently watched the fight between Pastrano and Harold Johnson where Willie won the Light Heavyweight title in 1963. I was surprised that Pastrano got the decision. Reporters at ringside thought that Johnson had won. It was a big upset. Johnson was supposed to defend his title against Mauro Mina, but he was injured (broken hand I think). Then he was supposed to defend against Henry Hank, but Hank also had gotten injured. Finally, Pastrano was tapped to fight for the title against Johnson.

I really think that Jimmy Ellis would have done very well as a light heavyweight. At least he would not have had to fight bigger opponents in almost every fight (exception of Patterson). He would not have been in with guys like Joe Frazier, Muhammad Ali, Ernie Shavers, and Ron Lyle. I think that his competition in the light heavyweight division would have been much easier.

So, Willie Pastrano dropped down into the light heavyweight division and ended up in the IBHOF. Jimmy Ellis moved up into the heavyweight division, and was just a very good heavyweight. At least he did win the WBA Heavyweight Title.

[sweetviolenturge]

Pastrano was a good, slick fighter but IMHO he was no Jimmy Ellis. Jimmy Ellis was the better fighter. Had they met at 175 lbs I believe that Jimmy would have done to Willie what Jose Torres did. Busted him up & stopped him in the middle rounds. My pick is Ellis via KO/TKO in about seven rounds.

[Scypion]

Pastrano was a good, slick fighter but IMHO he was no Jimmy Ellis. Jimmy Ellis was the better fighter. Had they met at 175 lbs I believe that Jimmy would have done to Willie what Jose Torres did. Busted him up & stopped him in the middle rounds. My pick is Ellis via KO/TKO in about seven rounds.

Completely agree, but Pastrano is in the IBHOF, and Jimmy Ellis is not.

[Scypion]

When told on the phone by Angelo Dundee that he had arranged a fight for him against Harold Johnson for the Light Heavyweight Championship, there was a pause. Willie then said, "You don't like me anymore, do you?" Pastrano did not relish the idea of fighting Harold Johnson, even though Johnson was 35 years old.

Pastrano lost to the likes of Alvin Pellegrini, Johnny Cesario, Del Flanagan, Italo Scortichini, Chic Calderwood, Jesse Bowdry, Wayne Thornton, Greg Peralta, Roy Harris, Brian London, Joe Erskine, Alonzo Johnson, and Jose Torres during his boxing career. I don't believe that any one of those boxers would have been able to beat Jimmy Ellis, with the possible exception of Torres.

Willie Pastrano also had draws with Alvin Pellegrini (twice), Elmer Beltz, Willie Troy, Chuck Spieser, Lennart Risberg, Wayne Thornton, and Archie Moore. The only big name there was Moore, but Willie fought Archie in 1962, and Moore was probably about 50 by then. I think that Willie Pastrano was a likable guy, but as a boxer, he was no Jimmy Ellis, IMO.

Did I mention that Willie Pastrano is in the IBHOF?

[Scypion]

One thing hurting Jimmy Ellis' legacy or chances of ever being inducted into the IBHOF was the fact that he was a second banana in Angelo Dundee's stable of fighters, with Muhammad Ali being the top banana. Many probably thought that Dundee handled Ellis because he was a friend of Ali. I used to think that way. I didn't realize that Ellis had been a very good amateur boxer, and what he accomplished winning the eight man tourney to become the WBA Heavyweight Champion.

What hurt Jimmy even more than that was his decision win over Floyd Patterson, and the fact that most people, including myself, thought that Patterson had really won the fight. It was a very unpopular decision. I think that Ellis is remembered more for that fight than any other fight that he had.

Jimmy Ellis is next best remembered for his losses to Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali. Those losses are much more remembered than his wins against George Chuvalo, Leotis Martin, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Doyle, Johnny Persol, Roberto Davila, Oscar Bonavena, and Cassius Clay when he was an amateur. When he was almost 34, he lost a close split decision to Boone Kirkman in Kirkman's hometown of Seattle, and I wonder if it was a "hometown decision."

Anyway, I do believe that there are boxers that have been inducted into the IBHOF that were not as good as Ellis was, and not just Willie Pastrano. It is just that it is easy to compare Ellis and Pastrano because their eras overlapped and I remember some of the boxers that they fought. It is obvious to me that Ellis was the better fighter of the two. I am sure that there are others too, that like Willie Pastrano, are in the IBHOF.

[scorpio83]

We all know that his friend and stablemate from his era like Muhammad Ali, Willie Pastrano, Luis Rodriguez and Jose Napoles are in the IBHOF as they were managed by Angelo Dundee. Ellis might get in many years until the opportunity was right if no big name fighters were eligible. If Ellis get in, then he would induct on the Old-Timer category from the Late Era if any fighter fought their last time until 1988 under the new rules of the IBHOF since 2015.

[Scypion]

That is ridiculous. So, if Jimmy Ellis does happen to get into the IBHOF, he will be in the old timers category, whereas, Joe Louis would still be in the modern category.

Oh well, 60 years from now, everyone in the modern category might be relegated to the old timers category. Doubt if I will be around to see it.

[Scypion]

One thing hurting Jimmy Ellis' legacy or chances of ever being inducted into the IBHOF was the fact that he was a second banana in Angelo Dundee's stable of fighters, with Muhammad Ali being the top banana. Many probably thought that Dundee handled Ellis because he was a friend of Ali. I used to think that way. I didn't realize that Ellis had been a very good amateur boxer, and what he accomplished winning the eight man tourney to become the WBA Heavyweight Champion.

What hurt Jimmy even more than that was his decision win over Floyd Patterson, and the fact that most people, including myself, thought that Patterson had really won the fight. It was a very unpopular decision. I think that Ellis is remembered more for that fight than any other fight that he had.

Jimmy Ellis is next best remembered for his losses to Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali. Those losses are much more remembered than his wins against George Chuvalo, Leotis Martin, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Doyle, Johnny Persol, Roberto Davila, Oscar Bonavena, and Cassius Clay when he was an amateur. When he was almost 34, he lost a close split decision to Boone Kirkman in Kirkman's hometown of Seattle, and I wonder if it was a "hometown decision."

Anyway, I do believe that there are boxers that have been inducted into the IBHOF that were not as good as Ellis was, and not just Willie Pastrano. It is just that it is easy to compare Ellis and Pastrano because their eras overlapped and I remember some of the boxers that they fought. It is obvious to me that Ellis was the better fighter of the two. I am sure that there are others too, that like Willie Pastrano, are in the IBHOF.

Another thing that hurts Ellis are those 5 losses to middleweight contenders when he first fought professional. I don't think he should have been fighting in the middleweight division in the first place and he should not have been fighting contenders so soon after turning pro. I don't think that those losses should be held against him very much.

Jimmy could hit. In his 40 fights, he had 24 KO's, 12 in the first round. He was consistent. All of his 12 losses were to boxers who were ranked contenders in their divisions (5 at middleweight and the rest at heavyweight), five when he was at least 33 years old as a heavyweight.

A lot of his fights were against contenders like Joe Bugner, Larry Middleton, Ernie shavers, Ron Lyle, Boone Kirkman, Joe Frazier (twice), Muhammad Ali, Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry, Leotis Martin, Oscar Bonavena, and George Chuvalo, as well as middleweights Holly Mims (twice), Henry Hank, Hurricane Carter, Rory Calhoun (not the actor), Don Fullmer, and George Benton.

Speaking of Kirkman, Boone was a National AAU Champion during his amateur days. Kirkman's record was 30 wins and 2 losses when he fought the 33 year old Jimmy Ellis. Jimmy knocked down Kirkman in the 3rd round, but Boone Kirkman was given a split decision win in his home town of Seattle, Washington. I would love to see a film of that fight.