Benny Leonard or Joe Gans?

[chrisjs1985]

Arguably/probably the two greatest lightweights in history. Both had very advanced technical styles in their era's and reigned for a very long time and fought their share of great opposition. Leonard retired at the top after reigning for eight years (before his comeback years later), Gans reigned for six years and lost the title by the time he was already suffering from the illness that would ultimately take his life shortly after.

Who is the greater lightweight?

Who would have won head-to-head?

[Ambling Alp II]

Really hard to pick between the two of them. You could almost flip a coin. Both great fighters; probably 2 of the top 25 pfp of all time.

[cfang]

I gave this some thought and went with gans. Both legends but one or two minor holes to pick with Leonard. Less with gans. Who knows though with fighters this great any result is possible.

[chrisjs1985]

I gave this some thought and went with gans. Both legends but one or two minor holes to pick with Leonard. Less with gans. Who knows though with fighters this great any result is possible.

What do you pick on Leonard that you can't on Gans?

[cfang]

Well it's tough with such great fighters. In fact looking again at Leonard's record it's hard to pick fault. The only fight during his reign that he lost was the dq to Britton which he really won.

I think I've always thought gans fought in an era where he had to potentially throw fights and not look as impressive to get fights too. So his record could be even better than it is. Only reason to pick gans I guess.

[Coco]

Just had a quick glimpse at Leonard's record, the stats say he lost 6, but the record shows far more??

[chrisjs1985]

Just had a quick glimpse at Leonard's record, the stats say he lost 6, but the record shows far more??

Newspaper decisions. He lost a number on his way up but it's worth noting that he turned pro very young. Once he hit his stride around the age of 18 he pretty much held a win against anyone he ever fought all the way up until his last fight when he was about 36 or 37 and had been out of the ring about 7 or 8 years.

[chrisjs1985]

Well it's tough with such great fighters. In fact looking again at Leonard's record it's hard to pick fault. The only fight during his reign that he lost was the dq to Britton which he really won.

I think I've always thought gans fought in an era where he had to potentially throw fights and not look as impressive to get fights too. So his record could be even better than it is. Only reason to pick gans I guess.

I think that story was sort of invented. Reports from the time state that he was losing the fight but did drop Britton and got a bit overzealous and followed through and got DQ'd. He did beat Britton in a prior non-title bout on a newspaper decision.

Gans certainly had to carry a few opponents during his time and threw the McGovern fight. However, like Leonard he reigned supreme for so long and went a long time beating everybody that he'd faced (apart from a young Sam Langford).

[Onetimeonly]

I think Leonard is pretty clearly the higher ranking historical fighter. I think the fight would be a coin flip.

[Coco]

Just had a quick glimpse at Leonard's record, the stats say he lost 6, but the record shows far more??

Newspaper decisions. He lost a number on his way up but it's worth noting that he turned pro very young. Once he hit his stride around the age of 18 he pretty much held a win against anyone he ever fought all the way up until his last fight when he was about 36 or 37 and had been out of the ring about 7 or 8 years.

So they are not counting the NWS losses but the wins yes

[chrisjs1985]

Just had a quick glimpse at Leonard's record, the stats say he lost 6, but the record shows far more??

Newspaper decisions. He lost a number on his way up but it's worth noting that he turned pro very young. Once he hit his stride around the age of 18 he pretty much held a win against anyone he ever fought all the way up until his last fight when he was about 36 or 37 and had been out of the ring about 7 or 8 years.

So they are not counting the NWS losses but the wins yes

Neither. His record shows 89-6-1-4 but with newspaper decisions it’s 180-21-6-6.

[APerno]

A digression:

Early newspaper report on Benny Leonard. -- You got to love the use of the words "celestial" and "Chinaman" -- an earlier report/announcement on 09-01-1913, (the day before the fight) referred to Leonard as "the Ghetto Lightweight" but did not use the term "wizard" in the nick name.

Leonard stopped Chung in six (09-02-1913)

From The NYTimes 09-03-1913

[Abradolf Lincler]

I'll choose the more advanced fighter head to head. That would be Leonard. The sport was still evolving throughout both of their careers, but moreso with Gans. He was an old-timer, through and through. Leonard was an era-straddler. Doesn't really affect historical standing, though. Even then, you'd have to flip a coin. The two most proven lightweights of all time, hands down. Both top 10 pound for pound greats, in my view.

[Nile4000]

Gans, but it is close.