GGG: an all time middleweight great?

[Jacopodb]

Hopkins who had to fake unconsciousness to avoid a loss against Allen or Hopkins who was beaten by Taylor twice?

Hopkins and Taylor, both of which would beat GGG. :)

Is that you bad intentions?

GGG fought dangerous fighters, but as soon as he faced all-time-great opposition, even if naturally lighter, he got schooled, getting hit flush-enough not to even make it funny.

GGG never faced a fighter like the Jermain Taylor who beat Hopkins, and could have never stood a chance against the Hopkins that lost to Taylor, but later beat Tarver, Wright and Pavlik.

[apollo creed]

Hopkins and Taylor, both of which would beat GGG. :)

Is that you bad intentions?

GGG fought dangerous fighters, but as soon as he faced all-time-great opposition, even if naturally lighter, he got schooled, getting hit flush-enough not to even make it funny.

GGG never faced a fighter like the Jermain Taylor who beat Hopkins, and could have never stood a chance against the Hopkins that lost to Taylor, but later beat Tarver, Wright and Pavlik.

Go to bed kid. Your mind is tired.

[squiggy]

"Based on the ten second highlight reel I watched, he really got dominated."

[Jacopodb]

Ok, this is getting paradoxical: you understand that I cannot answer posts that lack any argumentation whatsoever.

Gentlemen

[boxing_rocks]

Hopkins who had to fake unconsciousness to avoid a loss against Allen or Hopkins who was beaten by Taylor twice?

Hopkins and Taylor, both of which would beat GGG. :)

Is that you bad intentions?

Maybe Brut is back?

[Onetimeonly]

Hopkins and Taylor, both of which would beat GGG. :)

Is that you bad intentions?

GGG fought dangerous fighters, but as soon as he faced all-time-great opposition, even if naturally lighter, he got schooled, getting hit flush-enough not to even make it funny.

GGG never faced a fighter like the Jermain Taylor who beat Hopkins, and could have never stood a chance against the Hopkins that lost to Taylor, but later beat Tarver, Wright and Pavlik.

[Enlightened-One]

By the time he retires, GGG may be considered Hall-of-Fame worthy, but his resume isn’t remotely close (in terms of calibre) to those that are universally regarded as being genuine all-time-greats?

Apart from David Lemieux and Daniel Geale, how many fighters that held any of the legitimate versions of the world middleweight championship has he actually beaten?

I think that GGG is a fantastic fighter, but his resume doesn’t justify the absurd amount of hype and praise that has been lavished upon him.

So why on earth are people granting Gennady Golovkin an honorary rite of passage to “all-time-greatness” based on world title victories over the likes of?

• Dominic Wade
• Willie Monroe Jr.
• Osumanu Adama
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Curtis Stevens
• Nobuhiro Ishida
• Gabriel Rosado
• Grzegorz Proksa
• Makoto Fuchigami
• Lajuan Simon
• Kassim Ouma
• Kell Brook
• Vanes Martirosyan
• Nilson Julio Tapia
• Milton Nunez

Nearly every single one of these guys were not considered top-ten middleweights (based on ESPN’s and The RING’s divisional rankings) prior to their bouts against Gennady Golovkin and the vast majority of them were also former welterweights/light middleweights.

How many Hall-of-Fame worthy fighters has GGG defeated? And then compare this number to genuine all-time-greats, such as: Sugar Ray Robinson; Sugar Ray Leonard; Roberto Duran; Jack Johnson; Manny Pacquiao; Floyd Mayweather Jr.; Muhammad Ali; Evander Holyfield; etc.

End of thread!

[apollo creed]

By the time he retires, GGG may be considered Hall-of-Fame worthy, but his resume isn’t remotely close (in terms of calibre) to those that are universally regarded as being genuine all-time-greats?

Apart from David Lemieux and Daniel Geale, how many fighters that held any of the legitimate versions of the world middleweight championship has he actually beaten?

I think that GGG is a fantastic fighter, but his resume doesn’t justify the absurd amount of hype and praise that has been lavished upon him.

So why on earth are people granting Gennady Golovkin an honorary rite of passage to “all-time-greatness” based on world title victories over the likes of?

• Dominic Wade
• Willie Monroe Jr.
• Osumanu Adama
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Curtis Stevens
• Nobuhiro Ishida
• Gabriel Rosado
• Grzegorz Proksa
• Makoto Fuchigami
• Lajuan Simon
• Kassim Ouma
• Kell Brook
• Vanes Martirosyan
• Nilson Julio Tapia
• Milton Nunez

Nearly every single one of these guys were not considered top-ten middleweights (based on ESPN’s and The RING’s divisional rankings) prior to their bouts against Gennady Golovkin and the vast majority of them were also former welterweights/light middleweights.

How many Hall-of-Fame worthy fighters has GGG defeated? And then compare this number to genuine all-time-greats, such as: Sugar Ray Robinson; Sugar Ray Leonard; Roberto Duran; Jack Johnson; Manny Pacquiao; Floyd Mayweather Jr.; Muhammad Ali; Evander Holyfield; etc.

End of thread!

[apollo creed]

What about the top elite level 160 pounders like Canelo and Jacobs ?! What about top fighters/champs like Lemieux, Murray and Geale? GGG hasn't got a time machine to go back in time to fight prime Hagler, Monzon, SRL or RJJ! You just hating and downplay GGG's accomplishments.

EO is an attention seeker-troll and "intelligent or not, he's a complete disingenuous arsehole who cloaks his own opinions in a veneer of bullshit while pretending that he's in fact impartial.
Yet watch him when it's someone he doesn't have a gaping wide-on for in the dock...!
It's like listening to one of those right-wing media types who thinks that saying the word "fact" can simply make inconvenient things that they don't like go away, & that if they keep thrashing things out in a long-winded convoluted fashion you'll lose sight of consensus reality & accept their Byzantine version of events that—despite their constant appeals to some sort of "objectivity"—is only supported by their opinions & their bullshit rhetoric. "

Now it's end of thread!

[Jacopodb]

What about the top elite level 160 pounders like Canelo and Jacobs ?! What about top contenders like Lemieux, Murray and Geale? GGG hasn't got a time machine to go back in time to fight prime Hagler, Monzon, SRL or RJJ! You just hating and downplay GGG's accomplishments.

EO is an attention seeker-troll and "intelligent or not, he's a complete disingenuous arsehole who cloaks his own opinions in a veneer of bullshit while pretending that he's in fact impartial.
Yet watch him when it's someone he doesn't have a gaping wide-on for in the dock...!
It's like listening to one of those right-wing media types who thinks that saying the word "fact" can simply make inconvenient things that they don't like go away, & that if they keep thrashing things out in a long-winded convoluted fashion you'll lose sight of consensus reality & accept their Byzantine version of events that—despite their constant appeals to some sort of "objectivity"—is only supported by their opinions & their bullshit rhetoric. "

Now it's end of thread!

I understand but not justify why people with the main features of a troll, accuse people who write common sense of being a troll, as soon as they crash their own false hopes.

[apollo creed]

What about the top elite level 160 pounders like Canelo and Jacobs ?! What about top contenders like Lemieux, Murray and Geale? GGG hasn't got a time machine to go back in time to fight prime Hagler, Monzon, SRL or RJJ! You just hating and downplay GGG's accomplishments.

EO is an attention seeker-troll and "intelligent or not, he's a complete disingenuous arsehole who cloaks his own opinions in a veneer of bullshit while pretending that he's in fact impartial.
Yet watch him when it's someone he doesn't have a gaping wide-on for in the dock...!
It's like listening to one of those right-wing media types who thinks that saying the word "fact" can simply make inconvenient things that they don't like go away, & that if they keep thrashing things out in a long-winded convoluted fashion you'll lose sight of consensus reality & accept their Byzantine version of events that—despite their constant appeals to some sort of "objectivity"—is only supported by their opinions & their bullshit rhetoric. "

Now it's end of thread!

I understand but not justify why people with the main features of a troll, accuse people who write common sense of being a troll, as soon as they crash their own false hopes.

Are you saying that EO writes common sense ??

[apollo creed]

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings:
Middleweight division

GGG's top 10 ranked opponents:
Grzegorz Proksa (10) 2012
Matthew Macklin (6); Curtis Stevens(10) 2013
Daniel Geale (4) 2014 for the World Boxing Association Super World Middleweight Title
David Lemieux (4) 2015 IBF champion for the International Boxing Federation World Middleweight Title
Daniel Jacobs (2) 2017
Saul Alvarez, (Champion) 2017

All I can see is that GGG's resume can compete in terms of achievements at 160 lbs weight division with Pavlik, Martinez, Taylor or Hopkins resumes.

[Jacopodb]

What about the top elite level 160 pounders like Canelo and Jacobs ?! What about top contenders like Lemieux, Murray and Geale? GGG hasn't got a time machine to go back in time to fight prime Hagler, Monzon, SRL or RJJ! You just hating and downplay GGG's accomplishments.

EO is an attention seeker-troll and "intelligent or not, he's a complete disingenuous arsehole who cloaks his own opinions in a veneer of bullshit while pretending that he's in fact impartial.
Yet watch him when it's someone he doesn't have a gaping wide-on for in the dock...!
It's like listening to one of those right-wing media types who thinks that saying the word "fact" can simply make inconvenient things that they don't like go away, & that if they keep thrashing things out in a long-winded convoluted fashion you'll lose sight of consensus reality & accept their Byzantine version of events that—despite their constant appeals to some sort of "objectivity"—is only supported by their opinions & their bullshit rhetoric. "

Now it's end of thread!

I understand but not justify why people with the main features of a troll, accuse people who write common sense of being a troll, as soon as they crash their own false hopes.

Are you saying that EO writes common sense ??

Look: I think he might be just enlightened-enough to speak some common sense, from time to time.

[Jacopodb]

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings:
Middleweight division

GGG's top 10 ranked opponents:
Grzegorz Proksa (10) 2012
Matthew Macklin (6); Curtis Stevens(10) 2013
Daniel Geale (4) 2014 for the World Boxing Association Super World Middleweight Title
David Lemieux (4) 2015 IBF champion for the International Boxing Federation World Middleweight Title
Daniel Jacobs (2) 2017
Saul Alvarez, (Champion) 2017

All I can see is that GGG's resume can compete in terms of achievements at 160 lbs weight division with Pavlik, Martinez, Taylor or Hopkins resumes.

That's a good-enough point, if we consider the boxing middleweight scene of nowadays: but if we compare today's middleweight scene, with the middleweight scene of just a few years ago, you might acknowledge that it's not the same.

Lemieux, just to name the one I know better among the ones you named, knocked out bums in Canada, just like Bute, but when he came out, he was schooled by Rubio, who, I guess, at his peak, could give GGG a hard time, if not a lesson (back when Rubio was peaking, and Golovkin still had a shallow pro-experience, it could've gone either way.).

In today's poor boxing middleweight scene, even Lemieux (don't mistake: the guy's alright, dangerous enough for the honest GGG, but not enough to scare Rubio, for instance...) might easily look scarier than he actually is.

Fact is that GGG has never met a big, relentless, heavy puncher like Pavlik, an overly-skilled, hitting-from-all-angles, power puncher like Martinez, or a fast-and-furious swarmer like Taylor.

I respect your point, but we must always contextualise.

[apollo creed]

I understand but not justify why people with the main features of a troll, accuse people who write common sense of being a troll, as soon as they crash their own false hopes.

Are you saying that EO writes common sense ??

Look: I think he might be just enlightened-enough to speak some common sense, from time to time.

Enlightened or not "he's a complete disingenuous arsehole who cloaks his own opinions in a veneer of bullshit while pretending that he's in fact impartial". to quote user Datsue

[Jacopodb]

Are you saying that EO writes common sense ??

Look: I think he might be just enlightened-enough to speak some common sense, from time to time.

Enlightened or not "he's a complete disingenuous arsehole who cloaks his own opinions in a veneer of bullshit while pretending that he's in fact impartial". to quote user Datsue

Now, I don't know who that Datsue is ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datsue-ba ), but that quote from him looks very much like an insult to me, with all due respect.

[apollo creed]

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings:
Middleweight division

GGG's top 10 ranked opponents:
Grzegorz Proksa (10) 2012
Matthew Macklin (6); Curtis Stevens(10) 2013
Daniel Geale (4) 2014 for the World Boxing Association Super World Middleweight Title
David Lemieux (4) 2015 IBF champion for the International Boxing Federation World Middleweight Title
Daniel Jacobs (2) 2017
Saul Alvarez, (Champion) 2017

All I can see is that GGG's resume can compete in terms of achievements at 160 lbs weight division with Pavlik, Martinez, Taylor or Hopkins resumes.

That's a good-enough point, if we consider the boxing middleweight scene of nowadays: but if we compare today's middleweight scene, with the middleweight scene of just a few years ago, you might acknowledge that it's not the same.

Lemieux, just to name the one I know better among the ones you named, knocked out bums in Canada, just like Bute, but when he came out, he was schooled by Rubio, who, I guess, at his peak, could give GGG a hard time, if not a lesson.

In today's poor boxing middleweight scene, even Lemieux (don't mistake: the guy's alright, dangerous enough for the honest GGG, but not enough to scare Rubio, for instance...) might easily look scarier than he actually is.
,
Fact is that GGG has never met a big, relentless heavy puncher like Pavlik, an overly-skilled, hitting-from-all-angles, power puncher like Martinez, or a fast-and-furious swarmer like Taylor.

I respect your point, but we must always contextualise.

I think the nowadays version of Canelo beats any version of Pavlik or Martinez. So does Jacobs.

[apollo creed]

Look: I think he might be just enlightened-enough to speak some common sense, from time to time.

Enlightened or not "he's a complete disingenuous arsehole who cloaks his own opinions in a veneer of bullshit while pretending that he's in fact impartial". to quote user Datsue

Now, I don't know who that Datsue is ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datsue-ba ), but that quote from him looks very much like an insult to me, with all due respect.

What about EO's insults?! viewtopic.php?f=22&t=227397#p5071194

[Enlightened-One]

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings:
Middleweight division

GGG's top 10 ranked opponents:
Grzegorz Proksa (10) 2012
Matthew Macklin (6); Curtis Stevens(10) 2013
Daniel Geale (4) 2014 for the World Boxing Association Super World Middleweight Title
David Lemieux (4) 2015 IBF champion for the International Boxing Federation World Middleweight Title
Daniel Jacobs (2) 2017
Saul Alvarez, (Champion) 2017

All I can see is that GGG's resume can compete in terms of achievements at 160 lbs weight division with Pavlik, Martinez, Taylor or Hopkins resumes.

You’re happy to criticise me, but you’re unable to address the facts detailed in the following post... and remember, we’re evaluating GGG worthiness of being regarded as an “all-time-great”, not a Hall-of-Famer:

By the time he retires, GGG may be considered Hall-of-Fame worthy, but his resume isn’t remotely close (in terms of calibre) to those that are universally regarded as being genuine all-time-greats?

Apart from David Lemieux and Daniel Geale, how many fighters that held any of the legitimate versions of the world middleweight championship has he actually beaten?

I think that GGG is a fantastic fighter, but his resume doesn’t justify the absurd amount of hype and praise that has been lavished upon him.

So why on earth are people granting Gennady Golovkin an honorary rite of passage to “all-time-greatness” based on world title victories over the likes of?

• Dominic Wade
• Willie Monroe Jr.
• Osumanu Adama
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Curtis Stevens
• Nobuhiro Ishida
• Gabriel Rosado
• Grzegorz Proksa
• Makoto Fuchigami
• Lajuan Simon
• Kassim Ouma
• Kell Brook
• Vanes Martirosyan
• Nilson Julio Tapia
• Milton Nunez

Nearly every single one of these guys were not considered top-ten middleweights (based on ESPN’s and The RING’s divisional rankings) prior to their bouts against Gennady Golovkin and the vast majority of them were also former welterweights/light middleweights.

How many Hall-of-Fame worthy fighters has GGG defeated? And then compare this number to genuine all-time-greats, such as: Sugar Ray Robinson; Sugar Ray Leonard; Roberto Duran; Jack Johnson; Manny Pacquiao; Floyd Mayweather Jr.; Muhammad Ali; Evander Holyfield; etc.

End of thread!

[apollo creed]

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings:
Middleweight division

GGG's top 10 ranked opponents:
Grzegorz Proksa (10) 2012
Matthew Macklin (6); Curtis Stevens(10) 2013
Daniel Geale (4) 2014 for the World Boxing Association Super World Middleweight Title
David Lemieux (4) 2015 IBF champion for the International Boxing Federation World Middleweight Title
Daniel Jacobs (2) 2017
Saul Alvarez, (Champion) 2017

All I can see is that GGG's resume can compete in terms of achievements at 160 lbs weight division with Pavlik, Martinez, Taylor or Hopkins resumes.

You’re happy to criticise me, but you’re unable to address the facts detailed in the following post... and remember, we’re evaluating GGG worthiness of being regarded as an “all-time-great”, not a Hall-of-Famer:

By the time he retires, GGG may be considered Hall-of-Fame worthy, but his resume isn’t remotely close (in terms of calibre) to those that are universally regarded as being genuine all-time-greats?

Apart from David Lemieux and Daniel Geale, how many fighters that held any of the legitimate versions of the world middleweight championship has he actually beaten?

I think that GGG is a fantastic fighter, but his resume doesn’t justify the absurd amount of hype and praise that has been lavished upon him.

So why on earth are people granting Gennady Golovkin an honorary rite of passage to “all-time-greatness” based on world title victories over the likes of?

• Dominic Wade
• Willie Monroe Jr.
• Osumanu Adama
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Curtis Stevens
• Nobuhiro Ishida
• Gabriel Rosado
• Grzegorz Proksa
• Makoto Fuchigami
• Lajuan Simon
• Kassim Ouma
• Kell Brook
• Vanes Martirosyan
• Nilson Julio Tapia
• Milton Nunez

Nearly every single one of these guys were not considered top-ten middleweights (based on ESPN’s and The RING’s divisional rankings) prior to their bouts against Gennady Golovkin and the vast majority of them were also former welterweights/light middleweights.

How many Hall-of-Fame worthy fighters has GGG defeated? And then compare this number to genuine all-time-greats, such as: Sugar Ray Robinson; Sugar Ray Leonard; Roberto Duran; Jack Johnson; Manny Pacquiao; Floyd Mayweather Jr.; Muhammad Ali; Evander Holyfield; etc.

End of thread!

[Enlightened-One]

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings:
Middleweight division

GGG's top 10 ranked opponents:
Grzegorz Proksa (10) 2012
Matthew Macklin (6); Curtis Stevens(10) 2013
Daniel Geale (4) 2014 for the World Boxing Association Super World Middleweight Title
David Lemieux (4) 2015 IBF champion for the International Boxing Federation World Middleweight Title
Daniel Jacobs (2) 2017
Saul Alvarez, (Champion) 2017

All I can see is that GGG's resume can compete in terms of achievements at 160 lbs weight division with Pavlik, Martinez, Taylor or Hopkins resumes.

You’re happy to criticise me, but you’re unable to address the facts detailed in the following post... and remember, we’re evaluating GGG worthiness of being regarded as an “all-time-great”, not a Hall-of-Famer:

By the time he retires, GGG may be considered Hall-of-Fame worthy, but his resume isn’t remotely close (in terms of calibre) to those that are universally regarded as being genuine all-time-greats?

Apart from David Lemieux and Daniel Geale, how many fighters that held any of the legitimate versions of the world middleweight championship has he actually beaten?

I think that GGG is a fantastic fighter, but his resume doesn’t justify the absurd amount of hype and praise that has been lavished upon him.

So why on earth are people granting Gennady Golovkin an honorary rite of passage to “all-time-greatness” based on world title victories over the likes of?

• Dominic Wade
• Willie Monroe Jr.
• Osumanu Adama
• Marco Antonio Rubio
• Curtis Stevens
• Nobuhiro Ishida
• Gabriel Rosado
• Grzegorz Proksa
• Makoto Fuchigami
• Lajuan Simon
• Kassim Ouma
• Kell Brook
• Vanes Martirosyan
• Nilson Julio Tapia
• Milton Nunez

Nearly every single one of these guys were not considered top-ten middleweights (based on ESPN’s and The RING’s divisional rankings) prior to their bouts against Gennady Golovkin and the vast majority of them were also former welterweights/light middleweights.

How many Hall-of-Fame worthy fighters has GGG defeated? And then compare this number to genuine all-time-greats, such as: Sugar Ray Robinson; Sugar Ray Leonard; Roberto Duran; Jack Johnson; Manny Pacquiao; Floyd Mayweather Jr.; Muhammad Ali; Evander Holyfield; etc.

End of thread!

I have to give you credit for your honesty, since you’ve obviously admitted to being unable to address the facts I’ve listed or provide an answer to each question I have posed.

Thanks for conceding defeat!

[Jacopodb]

Enlightened or not "he's a complete disingenuous arsehole who cloaks his own opinions in a veneer of bullshit while pretending that he's in fact impartial". to quote user Datsue

Now, I don't know who that Datsue is ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datsue-ba ), but that quote from him looks very much like an insult to me, with all due respect.

What about this insult? viewtopic.php?f=22&t=227397#p5071194

I didn't delve on trying to know better about who user apollo creed is, and it's not my problem, but an insult is an insult, and you might have your own good-or-less reasons to insult him, as well as Enlightened might have had his reasons to insult mr. apollo creed, fact is that we don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water, and reckon that even Enlightened might write some common sense, from time to time.

I still stand with the ones being prudent about calling GGG an all-time-great; of course I might change my mind if GGG's career will be long and proficient-enough to surprise me, but from what I've seen until now, there are few perspectives.

[apollo creed]

So GGG needs a time machine to go back in time to fight prime Hagler, SRL, Monzon and RJJ at 160 lbs to meet EO's ATG evaluation criterias. LOL

Who knows if Hagler, SRL, Monzon or RJJ were considerated future ATG's at that time when they fought/were active.

[Enlightened-One]

OK, for those that honestly believe that GGG is an “all-time-great”, please answer the following questions honestly, without making excuses, since we’re only interested in facts:

• Apart from David Lemieux and Daniel Geale, how many fighters that held any of the legitimate versions of the world middleweight championship has GGG actually beaten?

• How many Hall-of-Fame worthy fighters has GGG defeated?

[apollo creed]

GGG fought prime top fighters in his era. Same as Hagler, Monzon, SRL etc did it in their eras. So we should wait about 50 years to know how GGG would go down in the boxing history books.