Muhammad Ali: Best win?

[elmersalsa]

Muhammad Ali

Defining Fight: WKO8 George Foreman... October 30, 1974..."Ali Bombaye!"

Other Defining Bouts: WTKO7 Sonny Liston (I), WTKO12 Floyd Patterson (I), L15 Joe Frazier (I), L12 Ken Norton (I), W12 Ken Norton (II), WTKO14 Joe Frazier and W15 Leon Spinks (II)

The Ring Magazine Fighter of the Year in 1963, 1966, 1972, 1974, 1975 and 1978.

Other wins include: W10 Doug Jones, WTKO4 Archie Moore, WTKO5 Henry Cooper, WTKO3 Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams, W15 George Chuvalo (I), WTKO3 Jerry Quarry (I), WKO15 Oscar Bonavena, WTKO12 Jimmy Ellis, WTKO7 Bob Foster and W15 Earnie Shavers.

That's a great resume!

All time ranking in my view at heavyweight: #1
All time ranking in my view pound per pound: #9

[oogiebe]

Best Win: Liston I (everyone, and I mean EVERYONE thought Ali would get seriously hurt. At the time it was an impossibility, unless you were Ali or Bundini Brown)

Best KO: Foreman. (See above: he just did it again)
Best KOII: Cleveland Williams. (even though Williams wasn't Williams anymore, I always loved that right cross!)

Best Opponent: Joe Frazier in ALI/FRAZIER I. Something really got into Frazier that night and he never before and certainly never again attained that level of performance.

That's all.

[BoxBuzz]

I always like to remind folks though much is made about Williams shape for that fight with Ali, Willams proved to be much better than you'd "imagine" him to be, via his fights after his rehab. His rehab was remarkable, and as an athlete Cleveland rebounded in spectacular fashion after his unfortunate event.

Most people honestly think that his injury is a bigger deal than his recovery.....I disagree.


Most people also think that Frazier knocking Ali down (arguably twice) in their first bout is a bigger deal than Ali coming back to more than hold his own in the wake of the knockdown, where as I'm thinkin' maybe not.

[dalcumly]

Best win for me was his first fight with Liston.
We've got to put ourselves back into that era. Most of the informed media genuinely believed Liston was not only unbeatable but that Clay/Ali would be seriously injured. The fight was generally regarded as a mismatch.
After 2 wipe-outs over the (now) underrated Floyd Patterson, Liston was at his peak. To see Liston at his most destructive you just have to watch his fights with Cleveland Williams , who himself was a big powerful man.
The Foreman win comes close as he too was thought to be invincible. But by that time the legendary status of Ali had taken root, and a lot of people naiively believed he had become unbeatable, and that the Frazier loss was due to inactivity. This is borne out for me by recently watching Ali's fight with Patterson in 1972. Floyd was stopped with a cut in round 7, but I scored it 5 rounds to Patterson and 1 to Ali up to that point. However the judges I think, had fallen for the 'legendary ' status'. 2 judges had Ali miles ahead while even Tony Castellano ( who as a fellow New Yorker and sentimental fan of Patterson) still scored it 3-3. Please watch it again if you can with the sound turned down!

[BoxBuzz]

Clay vs The United States

The petitioner changed his name to "Muhammad Ali" for religious reasons. "Cassius Clay" was his birth name and that was the name under which he was called for induction and later prosecuted

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali didn't throw a lot of punches early in the Patterson fight. The first four rounds were pretty close. Ali won the 5th and won the 6th round easily. That is quite a stretch to give Patterson five rounds.

The 7th round was completed, but the referee stopped the fight between rounds and apparently the judges never scored the round, though the referee apparently did. Ali had a big round.

[APerno]

I have read a couple of time that Ali had a quiet affection for Patterson; that he chose (in '72) to give Patterson one more payday and title shot (NABF), so it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that Ali carried Patterson through the first few rounds (threw few punches) and then opened up to end it quickly when he was ready.

[oogiebe]

I have read a couple of time that Ali had a quiet affection for Patterson; that he chose (in '72) to give Patterson one more payday and title shot (NABF), so it wouldn't be unreasonable to conclude that Ali carried Patterson through the first few rounds (threw few punches) and then opened up to end it quickly when he was ready.

I seem to remember that Ali had an issue with Patterson calling him Clay, like Terrell. I also remember one of their fights (1965)being called "The Torture of Floyd Patterson."

[oogiebe]

The Patterson questions made me do some digging. Found this article. Really interesting. I'll defer to it's content as it sounds reasonable.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/37 ... rson-fight

[dalcumly]

Excellent article oogiebe, just about sums it up. Thanks.

[oogiebe]

Excellent article oogiebe, just about sums it up. Thanks.

[Ambling Alp II]

It was an interesting article that was fun to read. There are a few things that I would quibble with:

- In there first fight, Patterson didn't seem injured in the early rounds, unlike what the article says.
- Not true that the back injury is rarely mentioned. It's almost always mentioned.

- George Foreman was not considered by most knowledgeable boxing fans to be the best heavyweight in the world at the time of the Ali-Patterson fight as the article says. Also not true that Ali was in a rough patch of his career going into the Patterson fight. He was actually on a roll and was looking better than at any other time since his layoff.

-Patterson calling him Muhammad Ali. That is true. I remember him calling him "Clay" in interviews in the late 1970s. However, it's doubtful it had to do with pronouncing it. It's reasonable someone with speaking problems would have trouble with Muhammad. However, he could have called him Ali instead of Clay when referring to him just by his last name.

Anyway, Patterson always seemed like a very nice guy. Class act.

[Jacopodb]

Carrying on with my 'Best Win Series'.. Going a bit old school..



He had recorded 56 wins, with 37 KO's!

Record:

Had a record of 22-3 (14 KOs) in world title fights.
Had a record of 14-5 (9 KOs) against World Champions
Had a record of 11-0 (5 KOs) in rematches.
Had a record of 11-3-0 (8 KOs) against International Boxing Hall of Fame inductees

Which was his best and/or defining win?

What was his best KO win?

Some names that he has fought include:

Archie Moore
Henry Cooper
Sonny Liston
Floyd Patterson
Ernie Terrell
Joe Frazier
Joe Bugner
Ken Norton
George Foreman
Earnie Shavers
Leon Spinks
--------------------
Another question..

Regardless of win/loss.. Who was his best opponent?

From the list above, this would include the likes of:

Larry Holmes
Trevor Berbick

I know this far: Foreman's fight was too demanding, and the Holmes fight should never have happened: Dundee had to throw in the towel, but the eggs were already scrumbled.

When an artist sells his name out, he makes a lot of money, but when a boxer does that for a payday, he gets a beating: so, it's not worth it.

Alí's technical flaws, and his irresponsible late losses, are enough not to make him the greatest heavyweight ever, in my eyes, just like Tyson, Frazier, and Holmes: all had the means, but not the work-ethics, so I would rate both Marciano and Calzaghe higher than them, p4p, considering both their makings and their achievements: the latter two's boxing proficiency never waned, not even past their prime: you can argue all you want about this, but I'm afraid I wouldn't change my mind on this, so please don't waste your precious time by arguing on this, even if you believe you have solid evidence: figure out if you don't bring some, or act disrespectfully: I'd rather bite a bunch of ears off, than argue about this, so you've been warned: warned person, half-saved.

The greatest heavyweights ever, in my humble opinion, are Joe Louis (and his only 3 eventual losses, one of them avenged), and Lennox Lewis, for his remarkable, common-sensed record.
I would rate Duran, Floyd Jr., Monzon, Hagler, and Hank Armstrong (with his only 2 KO losses), higher than Alí & co.

Here, I could applaud myself too, for this post: I wouldn't make a dime of damage, so... . Infinite thanks, ladies & gentlemen.

[Ambling Alp II]

Don't understand this post at all.
Ali, Holmes, and Frazier had as much work ethic as Calzaghe and Marciano. as for his flaws, Ali used the talents he had to the best of his ability. He just fought in a different way. Doesn't mean that he had technical flaws that could be exploited.

His irresponsible losses late in his career? Just ignore them. They don't mean anything.
You don't seem to have any problem ignoring Duran and Armstrong's losses, and they had a lot more than Ali.

[oogiebe]

Don't understand this post at all.
Ali, Holmes, and Frazier had as much work ethic as Calzaghe and Marciano. as for his flaws, Ali used the talents he had to the best of his ability. He just fought in a different way. Doesn't mean that he had technical flaws that could be exploited.

His irresponsible losses late in his career? Just ignore them. They don't mean anything.
You don't seem to have any problem ignoring Duran and Armstrong's losses, and they had a lot more than Ali.

I thought it was just me. LOL!

[ewenhay]

As much as I have respect for Calzaghe and Marcianos achievements rating them above Ali p4p is just trolling for a reaction.

Staying undefeated is a great achievement but you have to take the opposition into account. If you combined the top 10 wins of all 3, Calzaghe and Marciano would be lucky to have 2 of the top 10 between them

[Jacopodb]

As much as I have respect for Calzaghe and Marcianos achievements rating them above Ali p4p is just trolling for a reaction.

Staying undefeated is a great achievement but you have to take the opposition into account. If you combined the top 10 wins of all 3, Calzaghe and Marciano would be lucky to have 2 of the top 10 between them

It's not solely what they did, it's how they did it: when you lose your assets late in your career as Alí did (and Lennox Lewis didn't, for example), when you get hit flush as Alí did, when you pick such a disgraceful fight like the Holmes one, when you choose to adopt such a punishing technique as the rope-a-dope (talk about some Pyrrhic victory), when you get often intentionally beaten up in sparring like Alí did... it means you don't have the psychological makings to overtake fighters with a better mindset such as Marciano or Calzaghe: Marciano was much more than a guy who fought old bums: he was a guy who turned pro at the venerable age of 24, and yet managed to beat taller, heavier champions who were past their prime (as Marciano was too, before late), yet weren't that washed up (Joe Louis was a little slown down, but still the bigger guy): you wouldn't call Hopkins or Floyd Jr. "washed up" because they were 38 or 37...

Marciano and Calzaghe are guys that if tested harder, would have responded harder: Alí was punished by Frazier, who lost his assets as soon as he turned just a little slower, towards his 30s: 1974's Frazier, was no longer '71's Frazier... so, imagine what could Tyson or Lennox do to Alí, or even way-smaller Marciano, when both just a little past their prime.

Alí was hugely talented, but boxing is no "Britain's got talent"... it's a matter of mentality: even not-so-talented mentality beats reckless talent, and you could tell that both Marciano and Calzaghe were pretty talented too, besides having a way better mindset than Alí.

Duran suffered KOs, but he had 103 bloody victories, with 70 KOs(!): shìt happens, my friends, give him a break... besides, he doesn't slur more than I do. It's a matter of chances. Statistics.
Same goes for Armstrong: an early KO-loss out of inexperience, and just another one a little later, but nothing grievously punishing, and had motherfùckin 152 victories with 101 KOs... even if he had fought not-so-great opposition... 101 KOs..? You must be kidding me, dude: Alí didn't get half of those fights.
Sugar Ray Robinson himself suffered important losses, but he's still regarded as top-notch p4p ever, and I can picture why...

So, once again: "mentality" is the key word.

I'm not trolling about anything, I'm not screaming for praise, I just bring my solid, respectful facts and stand my own ground.

[Jacopodb]

Don't understand this post at all.
Ali, Holmes, and Frazier had as much work ethic as Calzaghe and Marciano. as for his flaws, Ali used the talents he had to the best of his ability. He just fought in a different way. Doesn't mean that he had technical flaws that could be exploited.

His irresponsible losses late in his career? Just ignore them. They don't mean anything.
You don't seem to have any problem ignoring Duran and Armstrong's losses, and they had a lot more than Ali.

I thought it was just me. LOL!

Of course, it was you and him, dude, read carefully.

[Ambling Alp II]

Sometimes it's hard to say if someone is trolling or clueless.

[oogiebe]

Don't understand this post at all.
Ali, Holmes, and Frazier had as much work ethic as Calzaghe and Marciano. as for his flaws, Ali used the talents he had to the best of his ability. He just fought in a different way. Doesn't mean that he had technical flaws that could be exploited.

His irresponsible losses late in his career? Just ignore them. They don't mean anything.
You don't seem to have any problem ignoring Duran and Armstrong's losses, and they had a lot more than Ali.

I thought it was just me. LOL!

Of course, it was you and him, dude, read carefully.

Sure.

[Jacopodb]

Sometimes it's hard to say if someone is trolling or clueless.

Well, you know, I might be clueless, but when it comes to ratings, I must consider a boxer's whole career span. It's no fantasy fights, dude; if not, it would go all the way like this, arguably: "prime Tyson beats anyone period", or so. It's not like this... a boxer that achieves great results in his prime, but loses his skills later in his career, due to loss of explosive power and speed, gets rated lower than a boxer who's maybe a little less talented, but trained well enough to stay fit until the end: imagine a marathoner, taking the lead for 41 kilometres, then losing it right before the 42nd; he doesn't win the race anyway, if he faces somebody, even less-fast, but who has saved his energies for the last mile.

I can't picture how you guys can't understand all this, for it looks just obvious, to me: Alí was hugely talented, even the most talented boxer ever, but lacked Marciano's work-ethics, that's why I would rate the latter higher... simple as this.

[APerno]

Sometimes it's hard to say if someone is trolling or clueless.

Well, you know, I might be clueless, but when it comes to ratings, I must consider a boxer's whole career span. It's no fantasy fights, dude; if not, it would go all the way like this, arguably: "prime Tyson beats anyone period", or so. It's not like this... a boxer that achieves great results in his prime, but loses his skills later in his career, due to loss of explosive power and speed, gets rated lower than a boxer who's maybe a little less talented, but trained well enough to stay fit until the end: imagine a marathoner, taking the lead for 41 kilometres, then losing it right before the 42nd; he doesn't win the race anyway, if he faces somebody, even less-fast, but who has saved his energies for the last mile.

I can't picture how you guys can't understand all this, for it looks just obvious, to me: Alí was hugely talented, even the most talented boxer ever, but lacked Marciano's work-ethics, that's why I would rate the latter higher... simple as this.

The marathon argument does not work because that would constitute an analogy for a single fight, not a career. Going by your logic if Nino Benvennuti (63-0) had quit half way through his career he would be without doubt the greatest fighter ever.

BTW I agree, I don't rate Ali at the top either, but when you evaluate a fighter's whole career you have to evaluate the results relevant to where he was at that moment in his career. To survive and then defeat Foreman in Zaire is one of the 'greatest' achievements the game has ever seen. Then for 'the old man' to drop a decision to Neon Leon, and then come back and out spar the kid, certainly doesn't make him any greater, but it also doesn't diminish him either. -- What happens if Marciano comes back and loses to Johannson, (sp) after all he almost did come back, does he then slip five notches on your list?

[Jacopodb]

Sometimes it's hard to say if someone is trolling or clueless.

Well, you know, I might be clueless, but when it comes to ratings, I must consider a boxer's whole career span. It's no fantasy fights, dude; if not, it would go all the way like this, arguably: "prime Tyson beats anyone period", or so. It's not like this... a boxer that achieves great results in his prime, but loses his skills later in his career, due to loss of explosive power and speed, gets rated lower than a boxer who's maybe a little less talented, but trained well enough to stay fit until the end: imagine a marathoner, taking the lead for 41 kilometres, then losing it right before the 42nd; he doesn't win the race anyway, if he faces somebody, even less-fast, but who has saved his energies for the last mile.

I can't picture how you guys can't understand all this, for it looks just obvious, to me: Alí was hugely talented, even the most talented boxer ever, but lacked Marciano's work-ethics, that's why I would rate the latter higher... simple as this.

The marathon argument does not work because that would constitute an analogy for a single fight, not a career. Going by your logic if Nino Benvennuti (63-0) had quit half way through his career he would be without doubt the greatest fighter ever.

Nino might well have been on the verge of being considered all-time p4p no.1 if he had beaten Monzon, not if he had stopped earlier, of course.
Floyd Jr. did a similar thing to that vs a prime Canelo, which was freakin' scary, specially to a guy past his prime, with brittle bones disorder, coming up from superfeatherweight... now Floyd Jr.'s up there, of course, higher-rated than Alí, by every mean.

The "marathon" one was just a cheap metaphore from me, just to picture a guy's fall from grace: if Alí had spent the energy he has burnt to pull out all those rhymes and jokes (which weren't half-bad, and he was a huge guy, and he obviously practiced the noble art, which technically is an utter sport, baby, and "The Louisville Lip" was no professional poet...), to train better, he might have predictably earned a spot in the all-time p4p top-5 or so... but he didn't: he probably felt he didn't need all that athletic glory, and he preferred pulling out some good jokes... I'm not of the same advice, but it's not my problem more than it was his problem, so I wouldn't mess with him, anyway.
The champ himself once said: "I hated every minute of training..."; top-notch all-timers don't hate training... it's the other way around..! Ask Cammarelle, Olympic boxer all-timer: he declared that training was never hard work to him by any means (about the "hard work-issue", we could speak later, if you need it, I might have some pebble in my shoe, about that).
All that considered, and arguably more, if someone has it, you could agree that Alí's work-ethics didn't bring him farther than Marciano, at least not in my eyes: It's just, like... my opiynnion, mayn...
So, I don't think I'm speaking madness, here. :-)

BTW I agree, I don't rate Ali at the top either, but when you evaluate a fighter's whole career you have to evaluate the results relevant to where he was at that moment in his career. To survive and then defeat Foreman in Zaire is one of the 'greatest' achievements the game has ever seen. Then for 'the old man' to drop a decision to Neon Leon, and then come back and out spar the kid, certainly doesn't make him any greater, but it also doesn't diminish him either. -- What happens if Marciano comes back and loses to Johannson, (sp) after all he almost did come back, does he then slip five notches on your list?

Marciano, as far as I'm concerned, could have by far had great chances to beat Ingemar Johansson... why not? With Rocky's usual work-ethics, that would have been veritable (dude was a freaking monk: you probably haven't heard the stories I have heard, about Rocky's usual training routines, and I could picture them... seek Google...); not with someone like Alí's work-ethics, as far as I'm concerned, with all due respect. What goes around, comes around. I guess you wouldn't scowl at me, now, woud ya?

[Jacopodb]

Now, people, let me do a little digression here, because I got a freakin' Mount Rushmore in my shoe, no longer a pebble...

...people making a big fuzz about Hard Work; now, call that an issue: "he's the hardest working man in showbusiness", stuff like this... now, I hope that's just some bad-taste metaphore, baby, because if you think that showbusiness is "hard work" by any means, you must be on acid, and on a bad trip, too.
I wouldn't say before some 6-years-old kid from Taiwan, sold to a factory, being spat a couple of coins in his hand for 16-hours work, and then sent back home (if he's got a house), that I "worked hard" to get where I am, not even if I was some mediocre prize-fighter, not even if my name was Michael "Fukkin" Jordan...
So, what's the use of saying that on TV all the fùckin' time, or on newspapers, from where that little kid from Taiwan could hear you or read you..? This kind of socially-accepted disrespect freaks me out.

I'm not begging for praise, but we must speak our mind, from time to time.

I've always pictured hard work, as: working in a coal mine in Belgium in the early 1900's, or picking cotton under the sun: jobs you don't like, and for which you are underpaid: that's hard work.
Either that, or by "hard work" you just mean "work", and you must work hard just to keep your job and not get fired, so it's a pure pleonasm: if "hard work" means "work", what's the use of putting "hard" before "work"? You've got penis-related complexes? Erectile dysfunctions? What's "hard", to you..? Tell your shrink, baby. Seek some doctor, instead of going Zelenoff all the way: that's how you end up suckerpunching Floyd Sr.: by believing you're working really hard, when you're not...

So, if you think it's just a cheap metaphore, then shame on you, for disrespecting; if you're an artist earning decent money, and you fùck around claiming you're working hard, then shame on you buddy, because you must be the ultimate asshole, pardon my French.

If you're earning your money by entertaining people, even at the lowest level, because you would do that for a hobby, or for a slice of bread, and you're given decent money to do that, how on Earth could you think you're working hard? Why people claims that on TV all the time, and no one tells them properly what's what, when they argue about pretty much anything else? I'm speechless: the only thing I can do is write about it.
It's not even shrink material, it's a social issue.

How come I've heard so many people calling showbiz, including any sports, "hard work?": is this the end of the world as we know it? This must be fùckin' apocalypse, now: where has work-ethics ended up? You tell me. I hope I'm not sounding rhetoric, because I'm pretty much pissed off about this, it's been chasing me for years, and I could never cope with it.

If Floyd Jr. had saved his breath a little bit, instead of running his mouth all the time with that "hard work, dedication!" crap, he could've even have showboated vs one like Pacquiao, which gets beaten with a fùckin' stick by some Filipino nutjobs, for a living, and given us a better spectacle to watch, for fùck's sake. "Hard work, dedication!" my ass.

But, you know, you get the pros and cons of anything, the ups and downs... so, I can't complain.

Sorry, end of digression.

[APerno]

Sometimes it's hard to say if someone is trolling or clueless.

Well, you know, I might be clueless, but when it comes to ratings, I must consider a boxer's whole career span. It's no fantasy fights, dude; if not, it would go all the way like this, arguably: "prime Tyson beats anyone period", or so. It's not like this... a boxer that achieves great results in his prime, but loses his skills later in his career, due to loss of explosive power and speed, gets rated lower than a boxer who's maybe a little less talented, but trained well enough to stay fit until the end: imagine a marathoner, taking the lead for 41 kilometres, then losing it right before the 42nd; he doesn't win the race anyway, if he faces somebody, even less-fast, but who has saved his energies for the last mile.

I can't picture how you guys can't understand all this, for it looks just obvious, to me: Alí was hugely talented, even the most talented boxer ever, but lacked Marciano's work-ethics, that's why I would rate the latter higher... simple as this.

The marathon argument does not work because that would constitute an analogy for a single fight, not a career. Going by your logic if Nino Benvennuti (63-0) had quit half way through his career he would be without doubt the greatest fighter ever.

Nino might well have been on the verge of being considered all-time p4p no.1 if he had beaten Monzon, not if he had stopped earlier, of course.
Floyd Jr. did a similar thing to that vs a prime Canelo, which was freakin' scary, specially to a guy past his prime, with brittle bones disorder, coming up from superfeatherweight... now Floyd Jr.'s up there, of course, higher-rated than Alí, by every mean.

The "marathon" one was just a cheap metaphore from me, just to picture a guy's fall from grace: if Alí had spent the energy he has burnt to pull out all those rhymes and jokes (which weren't half-bad, and he was a huge guy, and he obviously practiced the noble art, which technically is an utter sport, baby, and "The Louisville Lip" was no professional poet...), to train better, he might have predictably earned a spot in the all-time p4p top-5 or so... but he didn't: he probably felt he didn't need all that athletic glory, and he preferred pulling out some good jokes... I'm not of the same advice, but it's not my problem more than it was his problem, so I wouldn't mess with him, anyway.
The champ himself once said: "I hated every minute of training..."; top-notch all-timers don't hate training... it's the other way around..! Ask Cammarelle, Olympic boxer all-timer: he declared that training was never hard work to him by any means (about the "hard work-issue", we could speak later, if you need it, I might have some pebble in my shoe, about that).
All that considered, and arguably more, if someone has it, you could agree that Alí's work-ethics didn't bring him farther than Marciano, at least not in my eyes: It's just, like... my opiynnion, mayn...
So, I don't think I'm speaking madness, here. :-)

BTW I agree, I don't rate Ali at the top either, but when you evaluate a fighter's whole career you have to evaluate the results relevant to where he was at that moment in his career. To survive and then defeat Foreman in Zaire is one of the 'greatest' achievements the game has ever seen. Then for 'the old man' to drop a decision to Neon Leon, and then come back and out spar the kid, certainly doesn't make him any greater, but it also doesn't diminish him either. -- What happens if Marciano comes back and loses to Johannson, (sp) after all he almost did come back, does he then slip five notches on your list?

Marciano, as far as I'm concerned, could have by far had great chances to beat Ingemar Johansson... why not? With Rocky's usual work-ethics, that would have been veritable (dude was a freaking monk: you probably haven't heard the stories I have heard, about Rocky's usual training routines, and I could picture them... seek Google...); not with someone like Alí's work-ethics, as far as I'm concerned, with all due respect. What goes around, comes around. I guess you wouldn't scowl at me, now, woud ya?

As far as Rocky goes (vs. Johansson) I was offering a 'what if' how would you then rate him - they say every great fighter has one great fight left in him (so watch out) and I think it is likely had Rocky stayed for one more fight Patterson or Johansson, there was a good chance he wins either. -- Patterson's speed would have given him much trouble, but we all now know that Patterson had a 'dimple in his chin' and it seems likely IMO that Patterson would go the way of Walcott I, out boxing the Rock until he got caught. Johansson would have been an even easier fight for Marciano. He would have stood in front of Rocky and traded, and lost.