Harry Greb or Sam Langford?

[Onetimeonly]

Wills, Jeanette, and McVey will never make anyones list as the top fighter in their class. Not even close. Nor should they. O’Brien shouldnt given all of his shady fights but he will makes some. He was shot when langford got him.

Tunney, Walker, Tommy Gibbons, and Loughran were all prime when Greb beat them. Dillon and mike Gibbons were just slightly past his prime. All of those men with the possible exception of Tommy Gibbons have an argument as the top man in their division and several are pound for pound greats. And thats just the cream of the crop. Nearly all other HOFers Greb fought were in or mear their prime when he fought them.

Have never seen anyone rank Walker, Gibbons, Dillion or Loughran as the best of their weight class either. The only opponent I ever seen rated #1 one is Tunney, and that has been pretty rare.
It should also be taken into consideration that Langford was greatly outweighed in some of these fights.

You could argue that Walker had not reached his best as a a middleweight when Greb beat him.

No doubt, great fighters but anybody calling them the greatest fighter in a division would be laughable. Klompton is insanely biased. You can't rank those 4 fighters over Greb. These two are my top 2, I go back and forth.

[klompton]

Wills, Jeanette, and McVey will never make anyones list as the top fighter in their class. Not even close. Nor should they. O’Brien shouldnt given all of his shady fights but he will makes some. He was shot when langford got him.

Tunney, Walker, Tommy Gibbons, and Loughran were all prime when Greb beat them. Dillon and mike Gibbons were just slightly past his prime. All of those men with the possible exception of Tommy Gibbons have an argument as the top man in their division and several are pound for pound greats. And thats just the cream of the crop. Nearly all other HOFers Greb fought were in or mear their prime when he fought them.

Have never seen anyone rank Walker, Gibbons, Dillion or Loughran as the best of their weight class either. The only opponent I ever seen rated #1 one is Tunney, and that has been pretty rare.
It should also be taken into consideration that Langford was greatly outweighed in some of these fights.

You could argue that Walker had not reached his best as a a middleweight when Greb beat him.

No doubt, great fighters but anybody calling them the greatest fighter in a division would be laughable. Klompton is insanely biased. You can't rank those 4 fighters over Greb. These two are my top 2, I go back and forth.

Bullshit. Bias has nothing to do with saying that Walker, Gibbons, Dillon, and Loughran have a claim to being the best fighter in their division. Walker was a pound for pound great fighter who as a welterweight fought and beat some of the best fighters of his era from 135 to 175 and was dominant in his class for nearly five years before going up to take the MW title and then continuing to beat light heavyweights and even heavyweights including a draw with Jack Sharkey while he was the top contender. Mike Gibbons was considered one of the first if not the first pound for pound great in history and remains one of the most influential boxers to ever lace up a glove. He was almost single handedly responsible for the dissemination of a more scientific style and approach to the sport throughout the united states. From 1912 until 1919 he was considered the greatest fighter in the sport and went undefeated in that period barring two fights, one in which he was forced to come in at an unusually low weight for him, and another which he avenged twice. During that period he beat top contenders and champions in three divisions. Jack Dillon likewise was considered one of the greatest light heavyweights to ever lace on a glove having defeated top contenders and champions from 147 to heavyweight for nearly a decade. From 1912 until 1917 there wasnt a single fighter who consistently beat him in any weight class. Tommy Loughran, like the others listed here, went from 1925 to 1929 undefeated while taking the scalps of every top fighter from 160 to heavyweight until he ran into reigning HW champ Jack Sharkey who stopped him yet who Loughran came back to later outpoint and avenge that loss. In fact for a period of 12 years he had at least one victory over every fighter that managed to defeat him except one and that was because the guy would never rematch him. Most of those losses came years and pounds past his prime. So the idea that these guys are being overrated by me can be chalked up to ignorance on the part of those claiming otherwise.

[Ambling Alp II]

Have never heard anyone ever rate any of those guys as the best in their division. Not sure if I have seen Gibbons or Dillon in the top 10.

[klompton]

Have never heard anyone ever rate any of those guys as the best in their division. Not sure if I have seen Gibbons or Dillon in the top 10.

You must not be looking in the right places.

Mike Gibbons was rated #9 at MW by Nat Fleischer. He was rated #17 by IBRO, ahead of Langford btw. In his era was considered by most to be the greatest fighter of the age. Walker was rated #4 by IBRO at MW, #10 at WW. Walker was rated #4 all time MW by Fleischer (he didn't rank him at WW because he didn't rank fighters in two divisions). In 2002 Ring ranked Walker the 28th greatest fighter of the last 80 years. The only fighters anywhere near his weight that they ranked above him were Robinson, Armstrong, Duran, Greb, Whittaker, Monzon, and Hagler. Do the math, that means only three welterweights rated above him (in the previous 80 years) and three MWs. Fleischer ranked Dillon the #3 light heavyweight of all time. IBRO ranked him #16. They ranked Langford #3 which is bizarre considering the only great light heavyweight he ever fought was totally shot when he beat him. We can deep dive further on this. Harry Greb and Langford each defeated one man in IBRO's top 20 HWs. Greb defeated six men in IBRO's top 20 LHWs. Langford defeated one who was totally shot. Greb defeated three men IBROs top 20 MWs. Langford defeated one (unless you count his 6 rounder with Ketchel which was highly disputed and hardly conclusive) that one he managed to beat was Tiger Flowers who Langford had between 20 and 30 pounds on. Greb defeated one man on IBROs top twenty all time welterweights. Langford didn't defeat any. Greb had one win against IBRO's top twenty LW. Langford had two wins against men on IBRO's top twenty lightweight: one of which was Blackburn who he notched one win against in 6 or 7 fights... We can deep dive even further. Just look at their fights and results against HOFers:

Greb fought 15 men in the hall of fame for their fighting career. Langford fought 11 men in HOF for their fighting. We can also compare their records against HOFers:

Greb 33-10-4

Langford 23-18-15

And again, the vast majority of HOFers Greb fought were in their prime and he had a higher winning percentage against them. You cant say that about Langford. In fact the vast majority of fights Langford had against hall of famers came against 3 men: McVey, Jeanette, and Wills. Take those three men off his record and the number of fights he had against hall of famers is anemic compared to Greb who spread his out pretty evenly in multiple series against multiple hall of famers. That says nothing of all of the top contenders and champions he stacked his record up against compared to Langford. If you want we can continue but the fact is that any way you define greatness Greb doesn't bow to anyone.

[oogiebe]

Have never heard anyone ever rate any of those guys as the best in their division. Not sure if I have seen Gibbons or Dillon in the top 10.

You must not be looking in the right places.

Mike Gibbons was rated #9 at MW by Nat Fleischer. He was rated #17 by IBRO, ahead of Langford btw. In his era was considered by most to be the greatest fighter of the age. Walker was rated #4 by IBRO at MW, #10 at WW. Walker was rated #4 all time MW by Fleischer (he didn't rank him at WW because he didn't rank fighters in two divisions). In 2002 Ring ranked Walker the 28th greatest fighter of the last 80 years. The only fighters anywhere near his weight that they ranked above him were Robinson, Armstrong, Duran, Greb, Whittaker, Monzon, and Hagler. Do the math, that means only three welterweights rated above him (in the previous 80 years) and three MWs. Fleischer ranked Dillon the #3 light heavyweight of all time. IBRO ranked him #16. They ranked Langford #3 which is bizarre considering the only great light heavyweight he ever fought was totally shot when he beat him. We can deep dive further on this. Harry Greb and Langford each defeated one man in IBRO's top 20 HWs. Greb defeated six men in IBRO's top 20 LHWs. Langford defeated one who was totally shot. Greb defeated three men IBROs top 20 MWs. Langford defeated one (unless you count his 6 rounder with Ketchel which was highly disputed and hardly conclusive) that one he managed to beat was Tiger Flowers who Langford had between 20 and 30 pounds on. Greb defeated one man on IBROs top twenty all time welterweights. Langford didn't defeat any. Greb had one win against IBRO's top twenty LW. Langford had two wins against men on IBRO's top twenty lightweight: one of which was Blackburn who he notched one win against in 6 or 7 fights... We can deep dive even further. Just look at their fights and results against HOFers:

Greb fought 15 men in the hall of fame for their fighting career. Langford fought 11 men in HOF for their fighting. We can also compare their records against HOFers:

Greb 33-10-4

Langford 23-18-15

And again, the vast majority of HOFers Greb fought were in their prime and he had a higher winning percentage against them. You cant say that about Langford. In fact the vast majority of fights Langford had against hall of famers came against 3 men: McVey, Jeanette, and Wills. Take those three men off his record and the number of fights he had against hall of famers is anemic compared to Greb who spread his out pretty evenly in multiple series against multiple hall of famers. That says nothing of all of the top contenders and champions he stacked his record up against compared to Langford. If you want we can continue but the fact is that any way you define greatness Greb doesn't bow to anyone.

Always loved Greb and can't argue with your numbers! Nice post!

[elmersalsa]

Two phenomenal all-time greats. I give the edge to Sam Langford. What a fighter! He fought anybody, anywhere at any weight class. And he was only 5'7" Welterweight fighting heavyweights that nobody wanted to face. Extraordinary! He could be the greatest pound per pound boxer of all time. I would not even argue it. His accomplishments speak for itself.

I got Langford at #3, and Harry Greb at #6. Greb could also be arguable as a top 5 great fighter. His resume is bezerk! I just can't do with the Non decisions, though.

[Ambling Alp II]

Have never heard anyone ever rate any of those guys as the best in their division. Not sure if I have seen Gibbons or Dillon in the top 10.

You must not be looking in the right places.

Mike Gibbons was rated #9 at MW by Nat Fleischer. He was rated #17 by IBRO, ahead of Langford btw. In his era was considered by most to be the greatest fighter of the age. Walker was rated #4 by IBRO at MW, #10 at WW. Walker was rated #4 all time MW by Fleischer (he didn't rank him at WW because he didn't rank fighters in two divisions). In 2002 Ring ranked Walker the 28th greatest fighter of the last 80 years. The only fighters anywhere near his weight that they ranked above him were Robinson, Armstrong, Duran, Greb, Whittaker, Monzon, and Hagler. Do the math, that means only three welterweights rated above him (in the previous 80 years) and three MWs. Fleischer ranked Dillon the #3 light heavyweight of all time. IBRO ranked him #16. They ranked Langford #3 which is bizarre considering the only great light heavyweight he ever fought was totally shot when he beat him. We can deep dive further on this. Harry Greb and Langford each defeated one man in IBRO's top 20 HWs. Greb defeated six men in IBRO's top 20 LHWs. Langford defeated one who was totally shot. Greb defeated three men IBROs top 20 MWs. Langford defeated one (unless you count his 6 rounder with Ketchel which was highly disputed and hardly conclusive) that one he managed to beat was Tiger Flowers who Langford had between 20 and 30 pounds on. Greb defeated one man on IBROs top twenty all time welterweights. Langford didn't defeat any. Greb had one win against IBRO's top twenty LW. Langford had two wins against men on IBRO's top twenty lightweight: one of which was Blackburn who he notched one win against in 6 or 7 fights... We can deep dive even further. Just look at their fights and results against HOFers:

Greb fought 15 men in the hall of fame for their fighting career. Langford fought 11 men in HOF for their fighting. We can also compare their records against HOFers:

Greb 33-10-4

Langford 23-18-15

And again, the vast majority of HOFers Greb fought were in their prime and he had a higher winning percentage against them. You cant say that about Langford. In fact the vast majority of fights Langford had against hall of famers came against 3 men: McVey, Jeanette, and Wills. Take those three men off his record and the number of fights he had against hall of famers is anemic compared to Greb who spread his out pretty evenly in multiple series against multiple hall of famers. That says nothing of all of the top contenders and champions he stacked his record up against compared to Langford. If you want we can continue but the fact is that any way you define greatness Greb doesn't bow to anyone.

And Fleischer made made this rankings in what year? He's been dead for almost 50 years.
Neither he nor IBRO has any of these guys as the best, (not number 3 4 or in the top 20) which what you were saying.

[Ambling Alp II]

Have never heard anyone ever rate any of those guys as the best in their division. Not sure if I have seen Gibbons or Dillon in the top 10.

You must not be looking in the right places.

Mike Gibbons was rated #9 at MW by Nat Fleischer. He was rated #17 by IBRO, ahead of Langford btw. In his era was considered by most to be the greatest fighter of the age. Walker was rated #4 by IBRO at MW, #10 at WW. Walker was rated #4 all time MW by Fleischer (he didn't rank him at WW because he didn't rank fighters in two divisions). In 2002 Ring ranked Walker the 28th greatest fighter of the last 80 years. The only fighters anywhere near his weight that they ranked above him were Robinson, Armstrong, Duran, Greb, Whittaker, Monzon, and Hagler. Do the math, that means only three welterweights rated above him (in the previous 80 years) and three MWs. Fleischer ranked Dillon the #3 light heavyweight of all time. IBRO ranked him #16. They ranked Langford #3 which is bizarre considering the only great light heavyweight he ever fought was totally shot when he beat him. We can deep dive further on this. Harry Greb and Langford each defeated one man in IBRO's top 20 HWs. Greb defeated six men in IBRO's top 20 LHWs. Langford defeated one who was totally shot. Greb defeated three men IBROs top 20 MWs. Langford defeated one (unless you count his 6 rounder with Ketchel which was highly disputed and hardly conclusive) that one he managed to beat was Tiger Flowers who Langford had between 20 and 30 pounds on. Greb defeated one man on IBROs top twenty all time welterweights. Langford didn't defeat any. Greb had one win against IBRO's top twenty LW. Langford had two wins against men on IBRO's top twenty lightweight: one of which was Blackburn who he notched one win against in 6 or 7 fights... We can deep dive even further. Just look at their fights and results against HOFers:

Greb fought 15 men in the hall of fame for their fighting career. Langford fought 11 men in HOF for their fighting. We can also compare their records against HOFers:

Greb 33-10-4

Langford 23-18-15

And again, the vast majority of HOFers Greb fought were in their prime and he had a higher winning percentage against them. You cant say that about Langford. In fact the vast majority of fights Langford had against hall of famers came against 3 men: McVey, Jeanette, and Wills. Take those three men off his record and the number of fights he had against hall of famers is anemic compared to Greb who spread his out pretty evenly in multiple series against multiple hall of famers. That says nothing of all of the top contenders and champions he stacked his record up against compared to Langford. If you want we can continue but the fact is that any way you define greatness Greb doesn't bow to anyone.

Always loved Greb and can't argue with your numbers! Nice post!

Of course you can argue with the numbers.
Are all of these Hall of Famers exactly even?
He is also counting several losses for Langford late his career when he was on the decline.

Boxing is a sport where you put out statistics that can be very deceiving. If you going to ignore the factors involved, then you can to count Ali's losses to Holmes and Berbik against him. And Holmes and Berbik gets credit for beating a Hall of Famer.
Should we give Camacho credit for beating Hall of Famers Duran and Leonard? We can go on and with this.
Are going to give Duran as much credit for beat Ken Buchanan as we give Leonard for beating Hearns?
We all know that Langford couldn't get fights against Hall of Famers like Burns, Willard and Johnson when he was the champion. Or against white middleweight and lightweight champions and Hall of Famers as well.
You have to look at the circumstances.


Not saying that you can't make a case for Greb. You certainly can. However, you can't just throw out numbers like that and pretend like they are a rock solid case.

[oogiebe]

You're taking this way too seriously. The numbers (and other aspects asserted on this thread) support the opinions of those who say Greb over Langford. You don't have to tear down every post. I mean you can, but why bother? Do you have money on this?

[Ambling Alp II]

Sorry if I came off as too negative. Actually, I think Klompton is very knowledgeable about the sport. I was just pointing out serious flaws to the reasoning.

[oogiebe]

Sorry if I came off as too negative. Actually, I think Klompton is very knowledgeable about the sport. I was just pointing out serious flaws to the reasoning.

No worries mate! Post on!

[Onetimeonly]

Have never seen anyone rank Walker, Gibbons, Dillion or Loughran as the best of their weight class either. The only opponent I ever seen rated #1 one is Tunney, and that has been pretty rare.
It should also be taken into consideration that Langford was greatly outweighed in some of these fights.

You could argue that Walker had not reached his best as a a middleweight when Greb beat him.

No doubt, great fighters but anybody calling them the greatest fighter in a division would be laughable. Klompton is insanely biased. You can't rank those 4 fighters over Greb. These two are my top 2, I go back and forth.

Bullshit. Bias has nothing to do with saying that Walker, Gibbons, Dillon, and Loughran have a claim to being the best fighter in their division. Walker was a pound for pound great fighter who as a welterweight fought and beat some of the best fighters of his era from 135 to 175 and was dominant in his class for nearly five years before going up to take the MW title and then continuing to beat light heavyweights and even heavyweights including a draw with Jack Sharkey while he was the top contender. Mike Gibbons was considered one of the first if not the first pound for pound great in history and remains one of the most influential boxers to ever lace up a glove. He was almost single handedly responsible for the dissemination of a more scientific style and approach to the sport throughout the united states. From 1912 until 1919 he was considered the greatest fighter in the sport and went undefeated in that period barring two fights, one in which he was forced to come in at an unusually low weight for him, and another which he avenged twice. During that period he beat top contenders and champions in three divisions. Jack Dillon likewise was considered one of the greatest light heavyweights to ever lace on a glove having defeated top contenders and champions from 147 to heavyweight for nearly a decade. From 1912 until 1917 there wasnt a single fighter who consistently beat him in any weight class. Tommy Loughran, like the others listed here, went from 1925 to 1929 undefeated while taking the scalps of every top fighter from 160 to heavyweight until he ran into reigning HW champ Jack Sharkey who stopped him yet who Loughran came back to later outpoint and avenge that loss. In fact for a period of 12 years he had at least one victory over every fighter that managed to defeat him except one and that was because the guy would never rematch him. Most of those losses came years and pounds past his prime. So the idea that these guys are being overrated by me can be chalked up to ignorance on the part of those claiming otherwise.

Save the novels for someone that wants to read them.

[BitPlayer]

Mike Gibbons was considered one of the first if not the first pound for pound great in history and remains one of the most influential boxers to ever lace up a glove.

Sorry if this comes across as nitpicky, I agree with you for the most part, but surely McFarland atleast would have to be considered an earlier P4P great.

[APerno]

Does Langford and Greb have any in-common opponents?

[chrisjs1985]

Does Langford and Greb have any in-common opponents?

I know of Blackburn and Flowers off the top of my head.

[oogiebe]

Does Langford and Greb have any in-common opponents?

Kid Norfolk - Light Heavyweight
Greb L-DQ6 1924 and L 10 1921 (nws) no weight available.
Langford (at HW) W-KO2 1917

The only one I eyeballed.

[APerno]

Thanks to both . . . lest see what that got me?

A young Greb overwhelmed an experienced Blackburn in '15; neutralized him. --- Blackburn loses on PTS to Langford over 15 rounds and fights Langford to a draw over 43 rounds (over four fights). [Edge Greb]

Flowers beats Greb twice (SDs 15 rounders); Langford KOs a young Flowers 2/10. [edge Langford]

Greb DQed against Kid Norfolk; Langford by KO in 2 again. [edge Langford]

Well, I got nothing from that. LOL

[chrisjs1985]

Thanks to both . . . lest see what that got me?

A young Greb overwhelmed an experienced Blackburn in '15; neutralized him. --- Blackburn loses on PTS to Langford over 15 rounds and fights Langford to a draw over 43 rounds (over four fights). [Edge Greb]

Flowers beats Greb twice (SDs 15 rounders); Langford KOs a young Flowers 2/10. [edge Langford]

Greb DQed against Kid Norfolk; Langford by KO in 2 again. [edge Langford]

Well, I got nothing from that. LOL

Greb also defeated Flowers on a newspaper decision a little while before he lost his title to him.

[klompton]

And knocked out Gunboat Smith who beat Langford and was later stopped by him. And defeated Ted Jamieson twice who drew with Langford. He defeated Terry Keller twice who Langford defeated once. He defeated Willie Meehan twice who defeated Sam Langford. He has a win and a loss to Kid Norfolk, not just the loss, who Langford stopped.

Their records against common opponents are:

Greb 9-3

Langford 5-2-5 with one no contest

Of course their eras and weight classes don't really overlap so those numbers don't really mean much.