Onetimeonly wrote: ↑04 Jan 2019, 17:12
I don't see how it does. Tommy had plenty of those wins too as well as a great loss to Leonard.
Julio Cesar Chavez had more fights, more longevity and beat more champions. In the biggest fights of their career, in their PRIMES, Chavez won 2 outta 3 (Edwin Rosario, Meldrick Taylor, and Pernell Whitaker), while Thomas Hearns lost the 2 biggest fights of his career (Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvelous).
You can laugh all you want to. The proof is in the pudding. Julio Cesar Chavez was an incredible fighter below 140lbs. Chavez beat more champions, had more longevity, and was champion even longer. He went, what??? 87-0? Fighting the very best from 130 to 140? That's a lot of competition no matter how you look at it.
In the other hand, Thomas Hearns not only lost the two biggest fights of his career, he got knocked out!
Yes elmer, but look who the fights were against. You are comparing beating Edwin Rosario and Meldrick Taylor to Leonard and Hagler. That is simply silly.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 17:46
Yes elmer, but look who the fights were against. You are comparing beating Edwin Rosario and Meldrick Taylor to Leonard and Hagler. That is simply silly.
That's not silly. JCC is fighting the very best of the division. He had to go up in weight to take the title from one of history of boxing greatest punchers in Edwin "Chapo" Rosario, who was a triple world Lightweight Champion and a one-time Jr Welterweight champion. And he had his defining win beating superstar and champion Meldrick Taylor in one of the greatest fights of all time. Chavez was a machine in his prime.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 17:46
Yes elmer, but look who the fights were against. You are comparing beating Edwin Rosario and Meldrick Taylor to Leonard and Hagler. That is simply silly.
I also notice Chavez got his 3 biggest fights. I wonder why Tommy got only two?
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 17:46
Yes elmer, but look who the fights were against. You are comparing beating Edwin Rosario and Meldrick Taylor to Leonard and Hagler. That is simply silly.
I also notice Chavez got his 3 biggest fights. I wonder why Tommy got only two?
Chavez never lost in his prime. Nor even knocked out. He was one of boxing's greatest champions fighting 36 title bouts. Unbeaten in first 87 bouts. Beat the very best that was available between 130-140lbs. Tommy, for all the marbles, got knocked out. Not only once, but twice.
Chavez, in his prime, was considered the best fighter pound per pound for at least 5 years straight. Something that The Hitman did not accomplished.
For all the marbles, Chavez was 2-1.
For all the marbles, Hearns was 0-2.
And as Onetimeonly mentioned, you can't list three for Chavez and just two for Hearns.
Heanrs beat Benitz and duran in his third and fourth biggest fights. Both of those are light years better than beating frikkin Edwin Rosario.
I am kidding about Calzaghe. I was just showing how stupid elmer's logic of just counting the biggest fights of a guys career. Some guys fights are bigger than others.
Hearns biggest fights were bigger than Chavez's. Chavez's were bigger than Calzaghe.
The problem in comparing only ATG wins is that you lose the body of work that some greats had outside those 5 star matchups. Do we not discount Monzon's two wins over Rodrigo Valdes? Or Hagler beating Mugabi? or Bennie Brisco? or Mintor? Or Antaufermo? etc. Just a couple of examples of 'other' parts of a fighters' resumes. The tough and best of THEIR time. To the poster's point on Chavez, to be on top that long, that alone showed his greatness. But to what level on the ATG list that puts him, one must consider his top wins ,but the wealth of that era's top guys that he also beat. It's a exercise in futility sometimes. This may be one of them.
I didn't mean to say that you discount a win over these guys completely. You have to give them some weight. However, beating a Duran for example, is harder to do than beating Mugabi, Brisco,Minter, Antuofermo etc. combined.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 17:08
I didn't mean to say that you discount a win over these guys completely. You have to give them some weight. However, beating a Duran for example, is harder to do than beating Mugabi, Brisco,Minter, Antuofermo etc. combined.
I disagree. To keep that level of performance over time, fight after fight is more difficult than putting it all together for one, two or three fights. That's the best argument for JCC! Look at Monzon's record of fighters and who those fighters fought. Same for Hagler...even Duran; Esteban DeJesus et al...then look at Leonards. Each bout is a bum or the ATG you list. Very few of those 'just tough fighters.'
First of all, take a look at who Leonard beat before he ever fought for the title. He beat 9 top 10 fighters, some above his weight class. That is more than Hagler, Duran, or Monzon. It almost unheard of the since the 1950s. He never gets credit for it.
Sure you have to keep your focus when you are fighting a lot of good fighters in a row. However, that is much easier to do than beating 4 truly great fighters.
The proof is in the pudding. A lot of guys have beaten several good fighters. Only a handful have ever beaten 4 of the top 50.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 17:24
First of all, take a look at who Leonard beat before he ever fought for the title. He beat 9 top 10 fighters, some above his weight class. That is more than Hagler, Duran, or Monzon. It almost unheard of the since the 1950s. He never gets credit for it.
Sure you have to keep your focus when you are fighting a lot of good fighters in a row. However, that is much easier to do than beating 4 truly great fighters.
The proof is in the pudding. A lot of guys have beaten several good fighters. Only a handful have ever beaten 4 of the top 50.
I actually went back and did look. My points are exactly true. His resume of opponents is either the ATG or an also ran. No real fight after fight against the best in the class. Adolfo Viruet; Marcos Geraldo; Tony Chiaverini; Pete Ranzany; Andy Price; Those are the fights leading up to the Benitez fight. Then Davey Green; split with Duran; Larry Bonds; Ayub Kalule; leading up to the first Hearns fight. Bruce Finch; Kevin Howard; Leading up to Hagler fight. Then it's all crap and over the hill from there.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 17:46
Yes elmer, but look who the fights were against. You are comparing beating Edwin Rosario and Meldrick Taylor to Leonard and Hagler. That is simply silly.
I also notice Chavez got his 3 biggest fights. I wonder why Tommy got only two?
Chavez never lost in his prime. Nor even knocked out. He was one of boxing's greatest champions fighting 36 title bouts. Unbeaten in first 87 bouts. Beat the very best that was available between 130-140lbs. Tommy, for all the marbles, got knocked out. Not only once, but twice.
Chavez, in his prime, was considered the best fighter pound per pound for at least 5 years straight. Something that The Hitman did not accomplished.
For all the marbles, Chavez was 2-1.
For all the marbles, Hearns was 0-2.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 17:08
I didn't mean to say that you discount a win over these guys completely. You have to give them some weight. However, beating a Duran for example, is harder to do than beating Mugabi, Brisco,Minter, Antuofermo etc. combined.
I disagree. To keep that level of performance over time, fight after fight is more difficult than putting it all together for one, two or three fights. That's the best argument for JCC! Look at Monzon's record of fighters and who those fighters fought. Same for Hagler...even Duran; Esteban DeJesus et al...then look at Leonards. Each bout is a bum or the ATG you list. Very few of those 'just tough fighters.'
Hearns has plenty of solid wins, he just has great ones too. He also had good losses to Leonard and hagler while Chavez was dominated by whitaker. No contest.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 17:08
I didn't mean to say that you discount a win over these guys completely. You have to give them some weight. However, beating a Duran for example, is harder to do than beating Mugabi, Brisco,Minter, Antuofermo etc. combined.
I disagree. To keep that level of performance over time, fight after fight is more difficult than putting it all together for one, two or three fights. That's the best argument for JCC! Look at Monzon's record of fighters and who those fighters fought. Same for Hagler...even Duran; Esteban DeJesus et al...then look at Leonards. Each bout is a bum or the ATG you list. Very few of those 'just tough fighters.'
Hearns has plenty of solid wins, he just has great ones too. He also had good losses to Leonard and hagler while Chavez was dominated by whitaker. No contest.
Hearns had more than Leonard of those just really tough guys. He was also remarkably the busier and took more risks in his opponents, even later on his career...can you say Iran Barkley? Virgil Hill? Michael Olajide? Juan Domingo Roldan? not to mention a 2 round kayo over Duran whereby Leonard had a two fight split. Hearns had 67 fights vs 40 for SRL.
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:06
Kalule, price, ranzany, Howard, bother, shields, Munoz. He had plenty.
Not in the same league of the kind of fighters I'm talking about. Why don't you put Viruet on the list too. I'll give you Muniz. Look at the opponents I named for Monzon and then look at who they fought and beat.
I did, my phone changed it to bother. The illiteracy of smart phones is enraging. All I see mentioned is Rodrigo. He was great. Don't see your point. Kalule was better than Muniz. Price had wins over both champions. All of them were better than olajide.
Last edited by Onetimeonly on 08 Jan 2019, 18:18, edited 1 time in total.
Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑06 Jan 2019, 17:46
Yes elmer, but look who the fights were against. You are comparing beating Edwin Rosario and Meldrick Taylor to Leonard and Hagler. That is simply silly.
I also notice Chavez got his 3 biggest fights. I wonder why Tommy got only two?
Chavez never lost in his prime. Nor even knocked out. He was one of boxing's greatest champions fighting 36 title bouts. Unbeaten in first 87 bouts. Beat the very best that was available between 130-140lbs. Tommy, for all the marbles, got knocked out. Not only once, but twice.
Chavez, in his prime, was considered the best fighter pound per pound for at least 5 years straight. Something that The Hitman did not accomplished.
For all the marbles, Chavez was 2-1.
For all the marbles, Hearns was 0-2.
See the picture?
Those marbles are considerably better though. If Leonard and Hagler didn't exist like they basically didn't exist in Chavez' prime then Hearns would have been the best in the world for just as long as Chavez with a stronger opponent field.
Throwing the Hagler and Leonard losses at Hearns is overly simplistic. On the flip side once Chavez was defeated he went downhill and became cannon fodder whereas Hearns was always able to bounce back and produce further greatness.
Chavez was never the best in the world. Pea would have owned him at any time. He was certainly great and dominant, just historically overrated and aided by officials
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:16
I did, my phone changed it to bother. The illiteracy of smart phones is enraging. All I see mentioned is Rodrigo. He was great. Don't see your point.
That's hysterical on the spell correct. It may have been on another thread. My issue with SRL, is that he sandwiched ATG fights with less than tough opposition, like Hagler; Monzon; etc. The other poster was counting only like top 50 atg's and my point is that these other guys like Hagler/Monzon had records with a lot of those just very tough opponents one after another. I can't compare those opponents to what Leonard fought. SRL's career was very carefully 'posed.' The Lalonde with the two belts was absurd. So Hearns had more fights and more of those really tough guys then Leonard had. That's the body of work that I look at. Example: Monzon beats Tony Mundine. Not a top 50 ATG, but a lifetime record of 80-15-1, and to look at who HE fought. The likes of: Yaqui Lopez; John Conteh; Jesse Burnett; Bennie Briscoe; Antonio Aquillar, etc. Over and over Monzon's opponents were so very tough as compared.
Onetimeonly wrote: ↑08 Jan 2019, 18:16
I did, my phone changed it to bother. The illiteracy of smart phones is enraging. All I see mentioned is Rodrigo. He was great. Don't see your point.
That's hysterical on the spell correct. It may have been on another thread. My issue with SRL, is that he sandwiched ATG fights with less than tough opposition, like Hagler; Monzon; etc. The other poster was counting only like top 50 atg's and my point is that these other guys like Hagler/Monzon had records with a lot of those just very tough opponents one after another. I can't compare those opponents to what Leonard fought. SRL's career was very carefully 'posed.' The Lalonde with the two belts was absurd. So Hearns had more fights and more of those really tough guys then Leonard had. That's the body of work that I look at. Example: Monzon beats Tony Mundine. Not a top 50 ATG, but a lifetime record of 80-15-1, and to look at who HE fought. The likes of: Yaqui Lopez; John Conteh; Jesse Burnett; Bennie Briscoe; Antonio Aquillar, etc. Over and over Monzon's opponents were so very tough as compared.
Ergo; to put only top 50 atg opponents in a comparison between two fighters is only a part of the overall story. There! That's my point.
