The Nuances of the Foreman Frazier I fight

[oogiebe]

I've been reading where Pavlik is considering a comeback at CW. Perhaps the similarities haven't ended.

[gilgamesh]

I've been reading where Pavlik is considering a comeback at CW. Perhaps the similarities haven't ended.

He's still young enough to make a comeback (well sorta). Highly doubtful he wins another title, but he'd be capable of getting some more wins at least at a modestly matched level, and at least one more chance at a title because of what he's accomplished before.

[oogiebe]

I've been reading where Pavlik is considering a comeback at CW. Perhaps the similarities haven't ended.

He's still young enough to make a comeback (well sorta). Highly doubtful he wins another title, but he'd be capable of getting some more wins at least at a modestly matched level, and at least one more chance at a title because of what he's accomplished before.

36/37 isn't really that young, is it? He brings a name and can probably get a decent payday.

[gilgamesh]

I've been reading where Pavlik is considering a comeback at CW. Perhaps the similarities haven't ended.

He's still young enough to make a comeback (well sorta). Highly doubtful he wins another title, but he'd be capable of getting some more wins at least at a modestly matched level, and at least one more chance at a title because of what he's accomplished before.

36/37 isn't really that young, is it? He brings a name and can probably get a decent payday.

Younger than Foreman was when he came back.

[oogiebe]

He's still young enough to make a comeback (well sorta). Highly doubtful he wins another title, but he'd be capable of getting some more wins at least at a modestly matched level, and at least one more chance at a title because of what he's accomplished before.

36/37 isn't really that young, is it? He brings a name and can probably get a decent payday.

Younger than Foreman was when he came back.

By a year or so, maybe, but Foreman was a unique story, and was a different fighter in a weaker era. CW is a very talented division.

[gilgamesh]

36/37 isn't really that young, is it? He brings a name and can probably get a decent payday.

Younger than Foreman was when he came back.

By a year or so, maybe, but Foreman was a unique story, and was a different fighter in a weaker era. CW is a very talented division.

The 90's was certainly not a weak era for Heavyweights. Michael Moorer was one of the weaker Champions of the era, but it wasn't a weak era.

I'm with you that CW is a very deep division, and Pavlik has virtually no shot of beating any of the top guys there, but I would hesitate to say it'd be impossible even though I'd certainly bet against him if he were to be matched against any of the Top 10 or 15 rated Cruiserweights.

[oogiebe]

Younger than Foreman was when he came back.

By a year or so, maybe, but Foreman was a unique story, and was a different fighter in a weaker era. CW is a very talented division.

The 90's was certainly not a weak era for Heavyweights. Michael Moorer was one of the weaker Champions of the era, but it wasn't a weak era.

I'm with you that CW is a very deep division, and Pavlik has virtually no shot of beating any of the top guys there, but I would hesitate to say it'd be impossible even though I'd certainly bet against him if he were to be matched against any of the Top 10 or 15 rated Cruiserweights.

You're right. George's world was weak, except Holyfield. Moorer; Shulz, shot Cooney, etc. I was too fast on the post, and should've known better. Shame on me. Anyway, Pavlik would be up against it at CW.

[gilgamesh]

By a year or so, maybe, but Foreman was a unique story, and was a different fighter in a weaker era. CW is a very talented division.

The 90's was certainly not a weak era for Heavyweights. Michael Moorer was one of the weaker Champions of the era, but it wasn't a weak era.

I'm with you that CW is a very deep division, and Pavlik has virtually no shot of beating any of the top guys there, but I would hesitate to say it'd be impossible even though I'd certainly bet against him if he were to be matched against any of the Top 10 or 15 rated Cruiserweights.

You're right. George's world was weak, except Holyfield. Moorer; Shulz, shot Cooney, etc. I was too fast on the post, and should've known better. Shame on me. Anyway, Pavlik would be up against it at CW.

Oh yeah George was definitely carefully managed no doubt about that. Hell he'd lost his previous fight before beating Moorer so he was basically being brought in with the intention of being a big name for Moorer to defend against. He just shocked the world.

We are also in agreement that Pavlik would be up against it at CW. I can't picture him beating anyone in the Top 15 like I say, but I wouldn't mind seeing him try just for the hell of it.

[oogiebe]

The 90's was certainly not a weak era for Heavyweights. Michael Moorer was one of the weaker Champions of the era, but it wasn't a weak era.

I'm with you that CW is a very deep division, and Pavlik has virtually no shot of beating any of the top guys there, but I would hesitate to say it'd be impossible even though I'd certainly bet against him if he were to be matched against any of the Top 10 or 15 rated Cruiserweights.

You're right. George's world was weak, except Holyfield. Moorer; Shulz, shot Cooney, etc. I was too fast on the post, and should've known better. Shame on me. Anyway, Pavlik would be up against it at CW.

Oh yeah George was definitely carefully managed no doubt about that. Hell he'd lost his previous fight before beating Moorer so he was basically being brought in with the intention of being a big name for Moorer to defend against. He just shocked the world.

We are also in agreement that Pavlik would be up against it at CW. I can't picture him beating anyone in the Top 15 like I say, but I wouldn't mind seeing him try just for the hell of it.

Last "share" on the topic: Foreman's left hook on Rodriguez was one of my favorite memories of George II.

[Tony1244]

I agree on Ali or Holmes. Don't agree on Young.

I would have agreed with you on Young before the Young-Foreman fight.

A Foreman that's not mentally frazzled could beat Jimmy Young.

That is certainly very possible. But the talk at the time was that GF was now with Gil Clancy and after beating Lyle, Frazier, LeDoux, Dennis and Pedro Agosto wasn't mentally frazzled anymore.

[Tony1244]

You're right. George's world was weak, except Holyfield. Moorer; Shulz, shot Cooney, etc. I was too fast on the post, and should've known better. Shame on me. Anyway, Pavlik would be up against it at CW.

Oh yeah George was definitely carefully managed no doubt about that. Hell he'd lost his previous fight before beating Moorer so he was basically being brought in with the intention of being a big name for Moorer to defend against. He just shocked the world.

We are also in agreement that Pavlik would be up against it at CW. I can't picture him beating anyone in the Top 15 like I say, but I wouldn't mind seeing him try just for the hell of it.

Last "share" on the topic: Foreman's left hook on Rodriguez was one of my favorite memories of George II.

I'm not a huge gambler but I was in Vegas at the time and put some bread on George. I was watching closed circuit and a girl in front of me was talking about Foreman will lose. My heart was racing and pounding. I LOVED that Left Hook.

He withstood the sweltering heat against Rodriguez.

[gilgamesh]

I would have agreed with you on Young before the Young-Foreman fight.

A Foreman that's not mentally frazzled could beat Jimmy Young.

That is certainly very possible. But the talk at the time was that GF was now with Gil Clancy and after beating Lyle, Frazier, LeDoux, Dennis and Pedro Agosto wasn't mentally frazzled anymore.

Talk and talk only

[oogiebe]

Oh yeah George was definitely carefully managed no doubt about that. Hell he'd lost his previous fight before beating Moorer so he was basically being brought in with the intention of being a big name for Moorer to defend against. He just shocked the world.

We are also in agreement that Pavlik would be up against it at CW. I can't picture him beating anyone in the Top 15 like I say, but I wouldn't mind seeing him try just for the hell of it.

Last "share" on the topic: Foreman's left hook on Rodriguez was one of my favorite memories of George II.

I'm not a huge gambler but I was in Vegas at the time and put some bread on George. I was watching closed circuit and a girl in front of me was talking about Foreman will lose. My heart was racing and pounding. I LOVED that Left Hook.

He withstood the sweltering heat against Rodriguez.

It's amazing the transformation to that relaxed and patient George. I always wondered how great young George would've been had he had old George's mentality.

[Tony1244]

A Foreman that's not mentally frazzled could beat Jimmy Young.

That is certainly very possible. But the talk at the time was that GF was now with Gil Clancy and after beating Lyle, Frazier, LeDoux, Dennis and Pedro Agosto wasn't mentally frazzled anymore.

Talk and talk only

But you don't know with 100% certainty, and neither does anyone else if Foreman would have beaten Young if Foreman had never defended against Ali and they fought 75-77.

[oogiebe]

That is certainly very possible. But the talk at the time was that GF was now with Gil Clancy and after beating Lyle, Frazier, LeDoux, Dennis and Pedro Agosto wasn't mentally frazzled anymore.

Talk and talk only

But you don't know with 100% certainty, and neither does anyone else if Foreman would have beaten Young if Foreman had never defended against Ali and they fought 75-77.

I remember being "Upbeat" on George with the corner change and all the talk coming from Clancy, but it never translated into the ring. GF was really messed up in the head. His performances in those fights weren't earth shattering. Those fighters would've been dispatched earlier before Zaire. Clancy tried to make George more paced, which I think contributed to his loss to Young. Not the fighter that George was. He was a puncher not a boxer. Thanks for bringing that up, as I had forgotten about that.

[gilgamesh]

That is certainly very possible. But the talk at the time was that GF was now with Gil Clancy and after beating Lyle, Frazier, LeDoux, Dennis and Pedro Agosto wasn't mentally frazzled anymore.

Talk and talk only

But you don't know with 100% certainty, and neither does anyone else if Foreman would have beaten Young if Foreman had never defended against Ali and they fought 75-77.

This is true, but whereas I think Foreman beating Ali or Holmes is a long shot at best every time, I would think Foreman vs Young is 50/50 at worst for George. Meaning if they fought 2 or 3 times, I can't imagine Jimmy beating him every time.

[Tony1244]

Last "share" on the topic: Foreman's left hook on Rodriguez was one of my favorite memories of George II.

I'm not a huge gambler but I was in Vegas at the time and put some bread on George. I was watching closed circuit and a girl in front of me was talking about Foreman will lose. My heart was racing and pounding. I LOVED that Left Hook.

He withstood the sweltering heat against Rodriguez.

It's amazing the transformation to that relaxed and patient George. I always wondered how great young George would've been had he had old George's mentality.

I've wondered that a lot myself too.

All these Nostradamus' call people idiots if they predict a fight that never happened differently than they do.

Take into account -- no one in their right mind in 1980 would have said Foreman will come back and go 10 -12 rounds multiple times. They'd think you were smoking skunk weed.

[gilgamesh]

I'm not a huge gambler but I was in Vegas at the time and put some bread on George. I was watching closed circuit and a girl in front of me was talking about Foreman will lose. My heart was racing and pounding. I LOVED that Left Hook.

He withstood the sweltering heat against Rodriguez.

It's amazing the transformation to that relaxed and patient George. I always wondered how great young George would've been had he had old George's mentality.

I've wondered that a lot myself too.

All these Nostradamus' call people idiots if they predict a fight that never happened differently than they do.

Take into account -- no one in their right mind in 1980 would have said Foreman will come back and go 10 -12 rounds multiple times. They'd think you were smoking skunk weed.

Yes. Foreman's comeback, and success to come was one of the more improbable things that has ever happened in the sport.

[oogiebe]

I'm not a huge gambler but I was in Vegas at the time and put some bread on George. I was watching closed circuit and a girl in front of me was talking about Foreman will lose. My heart was racing and pounding. I LOVED that Left Hook.

He withstood the sweltering heat against Rodriguez.

It's amazing the transformation to that relaxed and patient George. I always wondered how great young George would've been had he had old George's mentality.

I've wondered that a lot myself too.

All these Nostradamus' call people idiots if they predict a fight that never happened differently than they do.

Take into account -- no one in their right mind in 1980 would have said Foreman will come back and go 10 -12 rounds multiple times. They'd think you were smoking skunk weed.

If predicting were accurate, we wouldn't need to have a fight. People sometimes feel that these fights are won/lost on the forum boards. Gets too serious sometimes. It's supposed to be enjoyable. You would think, as you alluded to, that upsets never happen.

[Tony1244]

Talk and talk only

But you don't know with 100% certainty, and neither does anyone else if Foreman would have beaten Young if Foreman had never defended against Ali and they fought 75-77.

I remember being "Upbeat" on George with the corner change and all the talk coming from Clancy, but it never translated into the ring. GF was really messed up in the head. His performances in those fights weren't earth shattering. Those fighters would've been dispatched earlier before Zaire. Clancy tried to make George more paced, which I think contributed to his loss to Young. Not the fighter that George was. He was a puncher not a boxer. Thanks for bringing that up, as I had forgotten about that.

He tried to box Lyle and got hit in the head real hard multiple times for his efforts. True, if he had fought the LeDouxs, Dennis', and Agostos', before Ali he probably would have blitzed them in 1 or 2 in lieu of his 3 to 4 round stoppages.

I was amazed at the time when Young beat Foreman, but perhaps I shouldn't have been. Young shutout Lyle twice and arguably outboxed an uninterested Ali. Young had the style for George. And I agree with you guys that Holmes beating Foreman in the late 70s is almost a foregone conclusion. A Young-Foreman rematch is almost a pickem.

[oogiebe]

But you don't know with 100% certainty, and neither does anyone else if Foreman would have beaten Young if Foreman had never defended against Ali and they fought 75-77.

I remember being "Upbeat" on George with the corner change and all the talk coming from Clancy, but it never translated into the ring. GF was really messed up in the head. His performances in those fights weren't earth shattering. Those fighters would've been dispatched earlier before Zaire. Clancy tried to make George more paced, which I think contributed to his loss to Young. Not the fighter that George was. He was a puncher not a boxer. Thanks for bringing that up, as I had forgotten about that.

He tried to box Lyle and got hit in the head real hard multiple times for his efforts. True, if he had fought the LeDouxs, Dennis', and Agostos', before Ali he probably would have blitzed them in 1 or 2 in lieu of his 3 to 4 round stoppages.

I was amazed at the time when Young beat Foreman, but perhaps I shouldn't have been. Young shutout Lyle twice and arguably outboxed an uninterested Ali. Young had the style for George. And I agree with you guys that Holmes beating Foreman in the late 70s is almost a foregone conclusion. A Young-Foreman rematch is almost a pickem.

For the record. George is one of my five favorite fighters of all time.

[Tony1244]

It's amazing the transformation to that relaxed and patient George. I always wondered how great young George would've been had he had old George's mentality.

I've wondered that a lot myself too.

All these Nostradamus' call people idiots if they predict a fight that never happened differently than they do.

Take into account -- no one in their right mind in 1980 would have said Foreman will come back and go 10 -12 rounds multiple times. They'd think you were smoking skunk weed.

If predicting were accurate, we wouldn't need to have a fight. People sometimes feel that these fights are won/lost on the forum boards. Gets too serious sometimes. It's supposed to be enjoyable. You would think, as you alluded to, that upsets never happen.

It makes me when people say, "You don't know what you're talking about," or "think before you write," if you see a fight that never happened differently than they do. It only makes sense if you've never predicted a fight incorrectly. if you find that person, tell them I'll go to Vegas with them and their room and board are on me.

[oogiebe]

I've wondered that a lot myself too.

All these Nostradamus' call people idiots if they predict a fight that never happened differently than they do.

Take into account -- no one in their right mind in 1980 would have said Foreman will come back and go 10 -12 rounds multiple times. They'd think you were smoking skunk weed.

If predicting were accurate, we wouldn't need to have a fight. People sometimes feel that these fights are won/lost on the forum boards. Gets too serious sometimes. It's supposed to be enjoyable. You would think, as you alluded to, that upsets never happen.

It makes me when people say, "You don't know what you're talking about," or "think before you write," if you see a fight that never happened differently than they do. It only makes sense if you've never predicted a fight incorrectly. if you find that person, tell them I'll go to Vegas with them and their room and board are on me.

It's disingenuous at the least.

[Onetimeonly]

I'd favor Holmes over George at anytime. Holy field too.

Agree with you on Holmes but not Holyfield. My guess is Holy would have fallen to GF like Norton did.

Someone mentioned the Puerto Rican heat. GF was from Houston. He could handle a warm night in March.

Nobody is destroying vander in 2 rounds. No way in hell.

[APerno]

Quibbling tropical and subtropical is a level of pedantry too silly to entertain. It's not something somebody with a sound argument needs to argue. Have you heard Cossell talking about the heat in the arena that night? Also, I don't know whether you know this, but TV spotlights are hellish hot. Perhaps the lighting and the lack of air conditioning could lift a sub-tropical Puerto Rican heat to a tropical Puerto Rican heat? To be honest I can't believe I had to write any of that out. You really have no argument if you are trying to downplay the heat in Foreman/Young. No one else ever has done.

Foreman retired in March 1977--you think he did so because he didn't want to fight Larry Holmes? Who was larry Holmes in March 1977? Holmes wasn't even in the picture. Holmes in 77 was the guy who twice turned down King's offers to fight Foreman.

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

A 70 year old Jewish guy in a tux complaining about the heat. Maybe you an Howard should get an air conditioned condo together in Miami.

If you thought Young-Foreman was close, you are too ignorant on the matter to debate with. I was rooting for Foreman at the time, big time. But I saw GF got his ass kicked.

Foreman was still in a psychological frenzy regarding Ali in 1977. He wanted nothing to do with boxers like Ali, Young, and eventually Holmes after he got his ass kicked by Young. If Mike Weaver had beaten Holmes, God would have told Foreman to come back much earlier than he did. You don't know this, as you seem not to know too much: but Foreman announced his return to the ring after Leon had beaten Ali and then duly retired again. .

Even Foreman never used the heat as an excuse against Young and GF was pretty good at coming up with excuses.

I know so much more than you do about 70s HW boxing that they'd stop the fight very ear;ly.

"Heat" entered the story line (after Foreman ran half naked into the street, or some nonsense to that effect) as 'heat exhaustion' - don't think people were thinking heat during the fight anymore than usual.