The Nuances of the Foreman Frazier I fight

[Tony1244]

I'd favor Holmes over George at anytime. Holy field too.

Agree with you on Holmes but not Holyfield. My guess is Holy would have fallen to GF like Norton did.

Someone mentioned the Puerto Rican heat. GF was from Houston. He could handle a warm night in March.

Nobody is destroying vander in 2 rounds. No way in hell.

Holydeal as my late Dad used to call him was a great and crowd pleasing fighter. But he was stopped and hurt in the ring. Foreman KOd a few great fighters like Norton and Frazier. Perhaps it would be a bit longer than 2 rounds, but both in their primes, I would pick GF by KO.

[Tony1244]

A 70 year old Jewish guy in a tux complaining about the heat. Maybe you an Howard should get an air conditioned condo together in Miami.

If you thought Young-Foreman was close, you are too ignorant on the matter to debate with. I was rooting for Foreman at the time, big time. But I saw GF got his ass kicked.

Foreman was still in a psychological frenzy regarding Ali in 1977. He wanted nothing to do with boxers like Ali, Young, and eventually Holmes after he got his ass kicked by Young. If Mike Weaver had beaten Holmes, God would have told Foreman to come back much earlier than he did. You don't know this, as you seem not to know too much: but Foreman announced his return to the ring after Leon had beaten Ali and then duly retired again. .

Even Foreman never used the heat as an excuse against Young and GF was pretty good at coming up with excuses.

I know so much more than you do about 70s HW boxing that they'd stop the fight very ear;ly.

"Heat" entered the story line (after Foreman ran half naked into the street, or some nonsense to that effect) as 'heat exhaustion' - don't think people were thinking heat during the fight anymore than usual.

He was dehydrated. If it was true what Foreman said about abstaining from water in training, that's the dumbest training method I've ever heard of. Of course, heat doesn't effect 2 people exactly the same way, but Young had to deal with whatever temperature the heat was too. Evading Foreman's punches would cause anyone to perspire and Jimmy was moving around some.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think a prime foreman would have beaten a prime Holyfield. Look at how much trouble an ancient Foreman gave him. Holyfield did not have a good defense at all. Foreman would have had him in trouble early. Holyfield had a good chin and a lot of heart., so he probably survives for a bit after first getting nailed, but Foreman was just relentless. This probably doesn't go past 5 rounds.

[oogiebe]

I think a prime foreman would have beaten a prime Holyfield. Look at how much trouble an ancient Foreman gave him. Holyfield did not have a good defense at all. Foreman would have had him in trouble early. Holyfield had a good chin and a lot of heart., so he probably survives for a bit after first getting nailed, but Foreman was just relentless. This probably doesn't go past 5 rounds.

I remember people talking like that before Holy/Mike Tyson I.

[Ambling Alp II]

That because people thought Holyfield was shot, and of course others overrated Tyson. Foreman was better than Tyson.

[oogiebe]

That because people thought Holyfield was shot, and of course others overrated Tyson. Foreman was better than Tyson.

I think prime Holyfield gives any Foreman all kinds of problems.

[APerno]

A 70 year old Jewish guy in a tux complaining about the heat. Maybe you an Howard should get an air conditioned condo together in Miami.

If you thought Young-Foreman was close, you are too ignorant on the matter to debate with. I was rooting for Foreman at the time, big time. But I saw GF got his ass kicked.

Foreman was still in a psychological frenzy regarding Ali in 1977. He wanted nothing to do with boxers like Ali, Young, and eventually Holmes after he got his ass kicked by Young. If Mike Weaver had beaten Holmes, God would have told Foreman to come back much earlier than he did. You don't know this, as you seem not to know too much: but Foreman announced his return to the ring after Leon had beaten Ali and then duly retired again. .

Even Foreman never used the heat as an excuse against Young and GF was pretty good at coming up with excuses.

I know so much more than you do about 70s HW boxing that they'd stop the fight very ear;ly.

"Heat" entered the story line (after Foreman ran half naked into the street, or some nonsense to that effect) as 'heat exhaustion' - don't think people were thinking heat during the fight anymore than usual.

He was dehydrated. If it was true what Foreman said about abstaining from water in training, that's the dumbest training method I've ever heard of. Of course, heat doesn't effect 2 people exactly the same way, but Young had to deal with whatever temperature the heat was too. Evading Foreman's punches would cause anyone to perspire and Jimmy was moving around some.

Maybe I was too cryptic in my wording, I was suggesting that the heat wasn't really an issue at all, only when they (Foreman's people) found themselves trying to explain his bizarre post fight behavior did the heat suddenly become an issue. I don't think there was any heat exhaustion in play, just emotional collapse. --- But this thing you say about not drinking water is pretty screwed up.

I too am a big Big George fan; was the only kid on my block to call the win over Frazier (and boy did I give everyone what for that night) but then I lost it all back on the Ali fight. LOL

[oogiebe]

Maybe we should've started a new thread for Foreman/ Young?

[Onetimeonly]

Agree with you on Holmes but not Holyfield. My guess is Holy would have fallen to GF like Norton did.

Someone mentioned the Puerto Rican heat. GF was from Houston. He could handle a warm night in March.

Nobody is destroying vander in 2 rounds. No way in hell.

Holydeal as my late Dad used to call him was a great and crowd pleasing fighter. But he was stopped and hurt in the ring. Foreman KOd a few great fighters like Norton and Frazier. Perhaps it would be a bit longer than 2 rounds, but both in their primes, I would pick GF by KO.

He was never stopped near his prime. George could definitely hurt him. No way he's running him over.

[Ambling Alp II]

Then again, no one else came close to running over Joe Frazier. And Holyfield never fought anyone like Foreman. Bert Cooper had him in trouble. Old foreman had him in some trouble. This is not far fetched to think a prime, relentless foreman could stop him.
Not saying that this is a slam dunk. These are two of the greatest heavyweights of all time. If they fought 10 times, there would be different results. However, Foreman wins this more often than not.

[Onetimeonly]

That's true, but evander was fleeter of foot than Joe and a better counter puncher. Not far fetched for George to stop him but it would be after drawing him into a slugfest. Can't see anyone running him over.

[Ambling Alp II]

Holyfield was fleeter of foot, but he was easier to to hit. I can see a prime Foreman running over Holyfield. Not saying it would happen every time, but certainly could happen. I don't think foreman would run over Frazier every time either. If Frazier lands something big early, that could change things. Or conceivably if he could manage to survive the early rounds, Foreman could get tired and Frazier could take over in the late rounds.

Holyfield, Frazier, Foreman (as well as a few others like Holmes, Lewis, Johnson etc.) were great fighters and would always have a chance against each other. I'm just going on who I feel would win the majority of the time.

[APerno]

My two cents

On the one side:

Holyfield could trade with just about anyone, and often did. Both Cooper and Bowe were able to hurt him but for the most part he could stand in front of his opponents and win out in most exchanges. There lies the rub with Foreman 1, no one could stand in front of Foreman 1 and trade (for very long). Holyfield was the type of warrior that would want to trade with Foreman 1, not outbox him; Hoyfield is the type of fighter Foreman 1 can beat.

On the other side:

Foreman 2 got his shot at Holyfield and he couldn't deliver the big blow, and granted while he had lost much as Foreman 2 he did have a better defense than he did as Foreman 1. (Not that Foreman 1 had bad defensive skills, just not as good.) But one has to wonder if Foreman 1 would not have found himself with Holyfield, tangling with a tougher, stronger, better boxer than Ron Lyle. Holyfield may have been able to finish what Lyle was able to start.

[Ambling Alp II]

That's the thing, any of these you can take a few of their fights and they look very beatable.
Foreman did come close to losing to Lyle (though I don't know if Holyfield was stronger and tougher than Lyle). He did lose to Young.
Holyfield came was hurt vs Cooper and Bowe. And Michael Dokes gave him trouble, as did Alex Stewart. Michael Moorer actually beat him. Holyfield wasn't exactly impressive in the 2nd Stewart fight or the Holmes fight.

We have to take it all together and guess the most likely scenario.