HW Champs hitting the deck

[Duran1970]

Good work...minor correction on schmeling.. should read the second fight down 3x...sorry to be a stickler......and Ive read somewhere that the only knockdown that counted against Dempsey vs Firpo was the one where he goes through the ropes...but is this a tally of official knockdowns or ones opinion?

[Ambling Alp II]

I guess we are getting to gray areas with Dempsey-Firpo. I am rethinking how we should do this.
I think for now, lets just count official knockdowns. When we are all done, we can go back and change it. Lets not get bogged down by specific cases for now.

In this fight, it's hard to say what the referee was counting as a knockdown. The referee didn't seem to have any control of the this match the entire way. Once he went down on his knees. Another time, his glove hit the ground. In the newspaper article. both time he got up immediately and started fighting.

In the newspaper article in boxrec, it states that Dempsey was down twice.
Until we get solid evidence otherwise, I think we should count the one where his glove hit the ground,, but not the one where his knees hit. It's a judgement call.

Good catch on Schmeling-Louis. I went back and edited it.

[Onetimeonly]

I had always thought it was once, but I've never dug deep into that fight.

[APerno]

Good work...minor correction on schmeling.. should read the second fight down 3x...sorry to be a stickler......and Ive read somewhere that the only knockdown that counted against Dempsey vs Firpo was the one where he goes through the ropes...but is this a tally of official knockdowns or ones opinion?

First off I think The Ambling Alp wants us to be sticklers. He is putting together a collection of information that I believe doesn't actually exist anywhere (in one place).

This is from Boxrec's page: "Firpo was down seven times in the first round and Dempsey was down twice. Firpo went down twice in the second before being counted out."

In an earlier post I commented that this is usually the info you run into, 11 total knockdowns with Fipro going down a record nine times (in two rounds) and Dempsey twice (in the first), for a recording setting 11 knockdowns.

Boxrec's narrative claims that Dempsey went down during the opening exchange:

" . . . The champion was partially stunned, but he blocked the next blow, a right swing that caught him on the forearm. Firpo quickly whipped over a right to the body and Dempsey’s knees sagged. It appeared he was ready to sink to the floor, but he saved himself by grasping Firpo’s body and pulling himself to his feet. Dempsey’s knees touched the canvas".

This is the knockdown I believe most historians count, but later on in the round Dempsey looks to slip and jumps right back up again, this (possible) slip seems to be the one that is causing our doubt. In the video below around the 2:15 mark you can see Dempsey's glove hit the canvas.

To be honest I think the second 'slip' may have been a knockdown as well but no one seems to record it as such. It looks as though Firpo may have caught him with a right hand but it is hard to tell. If you reduce the speed of the video down to .75 instead of normal you can get a better look at it.



I would like to take a moment and share (what I think is) an amusing anecdote. There has always been much controversy regarding how long it took Dempsey to get back into the ring but I ran across a New York Times article where Firpo complains that he was cheated. But Firpo doesn't mention the first round knockdown (out of the ring) instead complains that the final count was "quick" and that he would have continued fighting but the ref screwed him over with a quick count. Firpo never complains about the 'out of the ring' knockdown, nor does he complain about the neutral corner rule, he only complains that he got a "quick count." Go figure!

[APerno]

I guess we are getting to gray areas with Dempsey-Firpo. I am rethinking how we should do this.
I think for now, lets just count official knockdowns. When we are all done, we can go back and change it. Lets not get bogged down by specific cases for now.

In this fight, it's hard to say what the referee was counting as a knockdown. The referee didn't seem to have any control of the this match the entire way. Once he went down on his knees. Another time, his glove hit the ground. In the newspaper article. both time he got up immediately and started fighting.

In the newspaper article in boxrec, it states that Dempsey was down twice.
Until we get solid evidence otherwise, I think we should count the one where his glove hit the ground,, but not the one where his knees hit. It's a judgement call.

Good catch on Schmeling-Louis. I went back and edited it.

Sorry I was in the middle of posting and didn't see your last post.

[Caractacus]

I think the first time that Ken Norton was knocked downas a professional (and also out)
was his 17th pro fight against Jose Luis Garcia in September 1970.
I saw a newspaper photograph of it years ago and he was out cold,
completely flattened. ( Garcia at the time was a sparring partner to Sonny Liston).

[Ambling Alp II]

OK, I added 5 more, (Sharkey to Louis) so we are now up to 15.

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, OBrien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson - Choynski, Ketchel, Willard, Lawson, Wright. 5 times in 5 fights
Willard - Dempsey 7x, Firpo. 8 times in 2 fights
Dempsey - Flynn, Firpo 2x, Tunney II. 4 times in 3 fights
Tunney - Demspey II. 1 time in 1 fight
Schmeling - Gains, Daniels, Baer, Louis II 3x. 6 times in 4 fights

Sharkey – Rojas 2x, Maloney II 5x, Dempsey, Carnera, Levinsky, Loughran II, Brubaker, Louis 4x. 16 times in 8 fights.
Carnera – Stribling I, Sharkey I, Baer 11x, Louis 3x, Haynes I. 17 times in 5 fights.
Baer – Louis 3x, Nova II, 2x. 5 times in two fights.
Braddock – Stone, Kelly, Griffin, Louis. 4 times in 4 fights.
Louis – Schmeling I, Braddock, Galento, B. Baer I, Walcott I 2x, Walcott II, Marciano 2x. 10 times in 7 fights.

Positive I have all for Joe Louis. Almost sure I am missing some for Sharkey and Carnera.

[Duran1970]

louis down twice vs schmeling

[dalcumly]

Can anyone beat 21 times for Floyd Patterson?
I can tell you right now - no other lineal heavyweight champion has been knocked down more often.

[APerno]

louis down twice vs schmeling

what round was the first KD in?

[APerno]

OK, I added 5 more, (Sharkey to Louis) so we are now up to 15.

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, OBrien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson - Choynski, Ketchel, Willard, Lawson, Wright. 5 times in 5 fights
Willard - Dempsey 7x, Firpo. 8 times in 2 fights
Dempsey - Flynn, Firpo 2x, Tunney II. 4 times in 3 fights
Tunney - Demspey II. 1 time in 1 fight
Schmeling - Gains, Daniels, Baer, Louis II 3x. 6 times in 4 fights

Sharkey – Rojas 2x, Maloney II 5x, Dempsey, Carnera, Levinsky, Loughran II, Brubaker, Louis 4x. 16 times in 8 fights.
Carnera – Stribling I, Sharkey I, Baer 11x, Louis 3x, Haynes I. 17 times in 5 fights.
Baer – Louis 3x, Nova II, 2x. 5 times in two fights.
Braddock – Stone, Kelly, Griffin, Louis. 4 times in 4 fights.
Louis – Schmeling I, Braddock, Galento, B. Baer I, Walcott I 2x, Walcott II, Marciano 2x. 10 times in 7 fights.

Positive I have all for Joe Louis. Almost sure I am missing some for Sharkey and Carnera.

I want to go on record that I believe Sullivan KD Corbett with a low blow in the 17th or at least that is the best evidence so far.

[Duran1970]

louis down twice vs schmeling

what round was the first KD in?

fourth

[APerno]

louis down twice vs schmeling

what round was the first KD in?

fourth

Yep, just watched it, down in the fourth, Schmeling hurt him good too. Louis made the classic mistake by getting up too quick, but was smart enough (clear headed enough) to hold on and then the bell came.

Digression: Anyone know why this non title fight was scheduled for 15 rounds? Was this common for the 1930s, to schedule big (but not title) fights for 15?

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes, he was indeed knocked down twice in the first Schemling fight. I had counted it among the 10 career knockdowns against him, but neglected to put in "2x" by the fight. He was hurt badly by the first knockdown.

Not sure why it was scheduled for 15. Occasionally they did stuff like that back then. Louis had other fights scheduled for 15 before he fought for the title. Max Baer fought some 20-round fights even. Louis had some title fights scheduled for 20. Occasionally you will see some for 12 as well.

[APerno]

Back in the 1920s I believe New Jersey wouldn't allow anything longer than 12 rounds (Willard and Carpentier). Dempsey tried to petition the Illinois commission for 15 rounds (Tunney II) but they refused him.** Whereas all his New York fights were scheduled for 15 (including the non title go with Sharkey at Yankee Stadium). So I guess there really wasn't any set standard until the 1950s. I remember growing up (in the 60s) the rule of thumb seemed to be 15 for the world title, 12 for the NA title, and 10 for the eliminators.

** He probably wouldn't have done himself any favor.

[Duran1970]

I think in new York at the time they applied 15 round fights for bouts that determined a number 1 contender and the winner Gotta shot in the next fight.....
I think this applied to Jimmy Braddock before he got his shot against Baer , squared off against Lasky? I believe in a fifteen rounder...
Must've just been a new York thing ..Joe Louis had a few 15 rounders scheduled before his shot so not sure if it just applied to number 1 contenders...maybe certain main events?

[Duran1970]

After flippin through some books wasn't just a new York thing.... various states held 15 rounders that weren't for the major title for many years

[Ambling Alp II]

OK, I added 5 more, (Charles to Johannson) so we are now up to 20.

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, OBrien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson - Choynski, Ketchel, Willard, Lawson, Wright. 5 times in 5 fights
Willard - Dempsey 7x, Firpo. 8 times in 2 fights
Dempsey - Flynn, Firpo 2x, Tunney II. 4 times in 3 fights
Tunney - Demspey II. 1 time in 1 fight
Schmeling - Gains, Daniels, Baer, Louis II 3x. 6 times in 4 fights

Sharkey – Rojas 2x, Maloney II 5x, Dempsey, Carnera, Levinsky, Loughran II, Brubaker, Louis 4x. 16 times in 8 fights.
Carnera – Stribling I, Sharkey I, Baer 11x, Louis 3x, Haynes I. 17 times in 5 fights.
Baer – Louis 3x, Nova II, 2x. 5 times in two fights.
Braddock – Stone, Kelly, Griffin, Louis. 4 times in 4 fights.
Louis – Schmeling I 2x,, Braddock, Galento, B. Baer I, Walcott I 2x, Walcott II, Marciano 2x. 10 times in 7 fights.

Charles- Marshall I 8x, Walcott III, Marciano II 3x, Holman I 3x, Andrews, Matthews, Fleeman, 2x, Logan 3x. 22 times in 8 fights.
Walcott – Allen, Ettore, Sheppard, Fox, Simon, Louis, Charles II, Marciano I, Marciano II. 9 times in 9 fights.
Marciano – Walcott I and Moore. 2 times in 2 fights.
Patterson – Crecy, Radamacher, Harris, Johansson I 7x, Johansson III 2x, Liston I, Liston II 3x, Ali I, Quarry I 2x, Quarry II 2x, Bonavena. 22 times in 11 fights.
Johansson – Pellegrini, Patterson II 2x, Patterson III 2x, Snoek, London. 7 times in 5 fights.

Positive I have all for Rocky Marciano. Probably missing some for Charles, Patterson, and Walcott. Maybe Johansson.

[APerno]

John Holman knocking down Charles three times; where did he come from? That must have been a faded Charles in '55. He has some names on his record but he lost all of them save the one big victory over Charles, (except also the third Satterfield fight; which has the stink of fix attached to it).

[Tuan_Jim]

Can anyone beat 21 times for Floyd Patterson?
I can tell you right now - no other lineal heavyweight champion has been knocked down more often.

I guess you have your answer: Ezzard!

[Caractacus]

what about HW Champions having been knocked down in sparring sessions ?
( particularly when they were still the HW Champ).
Joe Louis was knocked down by Eddie Malcolm in a sparring session when Louis was training for the Bob Pastor fight in 1937.

[gilgamesh]

what about HW Champions having been knocked down in sparring sessions ?
( particularly when they were still the HW Champ).
Joe Louis was knocked down by Eddie Malcolm in a sparring session when Louis was training for the Bob Pastor fight in 1939.

I'm sure there would've been tons of examples of that that would've went unreported. Maybe where the manager of the Champ even went so far as to pay somebody hush money to keep it to themselves.

[Caractacus]

well Joe Louis mentioned it in his 1978 autobiography, otherwise I don't think would have heard about it.

[APerno]

Tyson before the Douglas fight (Greg Page); everyone said it was a bogus set-up, trying to build the PPV buys by pretending Tyson was beatable. Oops!

But truth is we can't really go there, like said above they would normally keep that quiet, and beside it probably shouldn't count anyway.

[Caractacus]

Wonder how many times Floyd Patterson was knocked down in sparring (if any).