HW Champs hitting the deck

[Caractacus]

Also maybe rate the knockdowns from 1 to 10 as some knockdowns appear debateable.
This looks more like a. foot trip/entaglment and then pushed off balance move .

[Tuan_Jim]

Tyson before the Douglas fight (Greg Page); everyone said it was a bogus set-up, trying to build the PPV buys by pretending Tyson was beatable. Oops!

But truth is we can't really go there, like said above they would normally keep that quiet, and beside it probably shouldn't count anyway.

You think Tyson/Douglas was ppv?

[APerno]

Tyson before the Douglas fight (Greg Page); everyone said it was a bogus set-up, trying to build the PPV buys by pretending Tyson was beatable. Oops!

But truth is we can't really go there, like said above they would normally keep that quiet, and beside it probably shouldn't count anyway.

You think Tyson/Douglas was ppv?

NO maybe you are right, it might have just been HBO, I m not sure. I remember we had to use a 'cheater box' at the time (had to go over my future mother-in-law's to watch it) but exactly who we was stealing it from I really can't remember.

Either way, we were calling it BS, claiming it was a promotional trick, and we were wrong.

[Caractacus]

yeah, I remember watching it live and it was on HBO because I would't have been able to afford Pay per view.
anyways back then to watch Pay per view events ,you had to actually physically go down to the cable company store in town and rent a "converter box" for 24 hours to run your home cable TV cable through to watch it.

[APerno]

Yes probably correct; back then you also needed a box just to watch normal cable. My father in-law was a Latino cab drive in Miami, which for the most part meant he consorted with thieves. He (and eventually we) always had a cheater box to steal cable with it, it usually cost about $125 and you hoped you could get enough use out of it to warrant the expense, then the cable company would rescramble the signal and you would have to buy another cheater box. (It got both standard cable and the PPV events; great deal.)

Remember the cable commercials? "Stealing cable isn't just wrong, it's illegal." -- That was me, for years. I still won't buy cable, too hard to steal now, but I got Netflix and my daughter has HBO Go, so that's enough, I'm not paying $140 a month for CNN or Fox News, screw that. If there is a nuclear holocaust, all I'm going to see is the flash, but miss out on all the pre-panic.

Xfinity is a dinosaur and streaming is the asteroid.

[Onetimeonly]

The spinks fight was cc. Everything before that was HBO and a few on ABC. Ruddock was his first ppv on TV.

[Ambling Alp II]

OK, I added 5 more, (Liston to Spinks) so we are now up to 25.

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, OBrien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson - Choynski, Ketchel, Willard, Lawson, Wright. 5 times in 5 fights
Willard - Dempsey 7x, Firpo. 8 times in 2 fights
Dempsey - Flynn, Firpo 2x, Tunney II. 4 times in 3 fights
Tunney - Demspey II. 1 time in 1 fight
Schmeling - Gains, Daniels, Baer, Louis II 3x. 6 times in 4 fights

Sharkey – Rojas 2x, Maloney II 5x, Dempsey, Carnera, Levinsky, Loughran II, Brubaker, Louis 4x. 16 times in 8 fights.
Carnera – Stribling I, Sharkey I, Baer 11x, Louis 3x, Haynes I. 17 times in 5 fights.
Baer – Louis 3x, Nova II, 2x. 5 times in two fights.
Braddock – Stone, Kelly, Griffin, Louis. 4 times in 4 fights.
Louis – Schmeling I 2x,, Braddock, Galento, B. Baer I, Walcott I 2x, Walcott II, Marciano 2x. 10 times in 7 fights.

Charles- Marshall I 8x, Walcott III, Marciano II 3x, Holman I 3x, Andrews, Matthews, Fleeman, 2x, Logan 3x. 22 times in 8 fights.
Walcott – Allen, Ettore, Sheppard, Fox, Simon, Louis, Charles II, Marciano I, Marciano II. 9 times in 9 fights.
Marciano – Walcott I and Moore. 2 times in 2 fights.
Patterson – Crecy, Radamacher, Harris, Johansson I 7x, Johansson III 2x, Liston I, Liston II 3x, Ali I, Quarry I 2x, Quarry II 2x, Bonavena. 22 times in 11 fights.
Johansson – Pellegrini, Patterson II 2x, Patterson III 2x, Snoek, London. 7 times in 5 fights.

Liston – Ali II, Martin. 2 times in 2 fights.
Ali – Banks, Cooper, Frazier I, Wepner. 4 times in 4 fights.
Frazier – Bonavena I 2x, Foreman I 6x, Foreman II 2x. 10 times in 3 fights.
Foreman – Ali, Lyle 2x, Young. 4 times in 3 fights.
Leon Spinks – Coetzee 3x, Holmes 2x, Ribalta 3x, Musone, Carlo. 10 times in 5 fights.

Ali, Frazier, and Foreman should be right. Not sure about Liston's early career. Probably missing some with Spinks. For example, did he get knocked down against DeLeon and against Qawi? I was thinking he did but can't find anything to supports that.

[Duran1970]

Don't think he was down vs qawi

[oogiebe]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

[APerno]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

Boo! Sanctioning body appointed champions should never be included. But on the serious side you think people saw Norton as lineal at that point? I am not sure if I am remembering this correctly but wasn't that a WBC reaction, stripping Spinks for ducking the WBC #1 contender (Norton) so he could take the rematch with Ali? Or did something else occur that I am missing?

[APerno]

Official Protests:

Sullivan fell Corbett with a low blow.

Wepner stepped on Ali's foot . . . push-down!

(I know, the Wepner-Ali knockdown was official, but Ali's not here to bitch at you so I'm taking up his side. I want an *)

[oogiebe]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

Boo! Sanctioning body appointed champions should never be included. But on the serious side you think people saw Norton as lineal at that point? I am not sure if I am remembering this correctly but wasn't that a WBC reaction, stripping Spinks for ducking the WBC #1 contender (Norton) so he could take the rematch with Ali? Or did something else occur that I am missing?

So you can't use Holmes then.

[APerno]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

Boo! Sanctioning body appointed champions should never be included. But on the serious side you think people saw Norton as lineal at that point? I am not sure if I am remembering this correctly but wasn't that a WBC reaction, stripping Spinks for ducking the WBC #1 contender (Norton) so he could take the rematch with Ali? Or did something else occur that I am missing?

So you can't use Holmes then.

Ah! Ali did us a lineal favor by returning to face Holmes, just as Jeffries (vs Johnson) and Louis did (vs. Charles)! "See I run rings around logically; intercourse the penguin!" (Monty Python)

[oogiebe]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

Boo! Sanctioning body appointed champions should never be included. But on the serious side you think people saw Norton as lineal at that point? I am not sure if I am remembering this correctly but wasn't that a WBC reaction, stripping Spinks for ducking the WBC #1 contender (Norton) so he could take the rematch with Ali? Or did something else occur that I am missing?

So you can't use Holmes then.

Ah! Ali did us a lineal favor by returning to face Holmes, just as Jeffries (vs Johnson) and Louis did (vs. Charles)! "See I run rings around logically; intercourse the penguin!" (Monty Python)

LOL! Of course, Ali was no longer champ, having retired. So MPFC it is.

[APerno]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

Boo! Sanctioning body appointed champions should never be included. But on the serious side you think people saw Norton as lineal at that point? I am not sure if I am remembering this correctly but wasn't that a WBC reaction, stripping Spinks for ducking the WBC #1 contender (Norton) so he could take the rematch with Ali? Or did something else occur that I am missing?

So you can't use Holmes then.

Ah! Ali did us a lineal favor by returning to face Holmes, just as Jeffries (vs Johnson) and Louis did (vs. Charles)! "See I run rings around logically; intercourse the penguin!" (Monty Python)

LOL! Of course, Ali was no longer champ, having retired. So MPFC it is.

MPFC?

Of course my logic is no good either. Tommy Burns; Schmeling; Patterson as well! -- And if we include Tommy Burns should we then not include Marvin Hart? -- Even the lineal championship is mess, all open to debate.

[oogiebe]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

Boo! Sanctioning body appointed champions should never be included. But on the serious side you think people saw Norton as lineal at that point? I am not sure if I am remembering this correctly but wasn't that a WBC reaction, stripping Spinks for ducking the WBC #1 contender (Norton) so he could take the rematch with Ali? Or did something else occur that I am missing?

So you can't use Holmes then.

Ah! Ali did us a lineal favor by returning to face Holmes, just as Jeffries (vs Johnson) and Louis did (vs. Charles)! "See I run rings around logically; intercourse the penguin!" (Monty Python)

LOL! Of course, Ali was no longer champ, having retired. So MPFC it is.

MPFC?

Of course my logic is no good either. Tommy Burns; Schmeling; Patterson as well! -- And if we include Tommy Burns should we then not include Marvin Hart? -- Even the lineal championship is mess, all open to debate.

Monty Python's Flying Circus. LOL! Yes, it's all a mess. Kidding aside, I think Norton belongs on the list.

[Caractacus]

what about HW Champions having been knocked down in sparring sessions ?
( particularly when they were still the HW Champ).
Joe Louis was knocked down by Eddie Malcolm in a sparring session when Louis was training for the Bob Pastor fight in 1937
( first fight)..

[gregor]

Michael Moorer was dropped for numerous amount of times. At least by Cooper, Foreman, Tua, a lot of times by Holyfield. Someone, count them all.

11 times - Foreman (x1), Tua (x1), Bert Cooper (x2), Holyfield (x1, x5), Everett Martin (x1)

[DrDuke]

Michael Moorer was dropped for numerous amount of times. At least by Cooper, Foreman, Tua, a lot of times by Holyfield. Someone, count them all.

11 times - Foreman (x1), Tua (x1), Bert Cooper (x2), Holyfield (x1, x5), Everett Martin (x1)

[Tuan_Jim]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

News to me. Who said that at the time?

[Onetimeonly]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

News to me. Who said that at the time?

Nobody on earth

[Tuan_Jim]

Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

News to me. Who said that at the time?

Nobody on earth

That's what I was thinking.

[Ambling Alp II]

Wanted to comment on a few things:
Sullivan-Corbett - The description of the punch that put Corbett on the canvas was a low punch to the body. I don't take that to mean that it was a low blow. For now, I am counting it.

Liston-Marshall- Just flipped through a biography of Liston. Marshal;l claimed the punch (4th round of their second fight) was a legitimate knockdown. Liston's people claim it was more of a trip. Apparently, the referee did start a count. So for now I am counting that as an official knockdown.

Ali-Wepner - I suspect that it was not legitimate knockdown. I can't tell form the video evidence that I have seen. With video evidence, or a picture, or Wepner himself saying it was not really a knockdown, I am counting it for now.

[APerno]

Wanted to comment on a few things:
Sullivan-Corbett - The description of the punch that put Corbett on the canvas was a low punch to the body. I don't take that to mean that it was a low blow. For now, I am counting it.

Liston-Marshall- Just flipped through a biography of Liston. Marshal;l claimed the punch (4th round of their second fight) was a legitimate knockdown. Liston's people claim it was more of a trip. Apparently, the referee did start a count. So for now I am counting that as an official knockdown.

Ali-Wepner - I suspect that it was not legitimate knockdown. I can't tell form the video evidence that I have seen. With video evidence, or a picture, or Wepner himself saying it was not really a knockdown, I am counting it for now.

Ah! the wording is: by a low body blow that can be taken either way, and since I am the one who posted the Sullivan-Corbett account and it is the only one I could find anywhere, I guess I got to stop complaining, but I'll keep looking.

Re Ali-Wepner, since Muhammad is gone I guess when I see you, I'll have to be the one who steps on your foot and pushes you to the ground. My last complaint about that too.

Great job!

[Ambling Alp II]

OK, I added 5 more, (Holmes to Bowe) so we are now up to 30.

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, OBrien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson - Choynski, Ketchel, Willard, Lawson, Wright. 5 times in 5 fights
Willard - Dempsey 7x, Firpo. 8 times in 2 fights
Dempsey - Flynn, Firpo 2x, Tunney II. 4 times in 3 fights
Tunney - Dempsey II. 1 time in 1 fight
Schmeling - Gains, Daniels, Baer, Louis II 3x. 6 times in 4 fights

Sharkey – Rojas 2x, Maloney II 5x, Dempsey, Carnera, Levinsky, Loughran II, Brubaker, Louis 4x. 16 times in 8 fights.
Carnera – Stribling I, Sharkey I, Baer 11x, Louis 3x, Haynes I. 17 times in 5 fights.
Baer – Louis 3x, Nova II, 2x. 5 times in two fights.
Braddock – Stone, Kelly, Griffin, Louis. 4 times in 4 fights.
Louis – Schmeling I 2x,, Braddock, Galento, B. Baer I, Walcott I 2x, Walcott II, Marciano 2x. 10 times in 7 fights.

Charles- Marshall I 8x, Walcott III, Marciano II 3x, Holman I 3x, Andrews, Matthews, Fleeman, 3x, Logan 3x. 23 times in 8 fights.
Walcott – Allen, Ettore, Sheppard, Fox, Simon, Louis, Charles II, Marciano I, Marciano II. 9 times in 9 fights.
Marciano – Walcott I and Moore. 2 times in 2 fights.
Patterson – Crecy, Radamacher, Harris, Johansson I 7x, Johansson III 2x, Liston I, Liston II 3x, Ali I, Quarry I 2x, Quarry II 2x, Bonavena. 22 times in 11 fights.
Johansson – Pellegrini, Patterson II 2x, Patterson III 2x, Snoek, London. 7 times in 5 fights.

Liston – Marshall II, Ali II, Martin. 3 times in 3 fights.
Ali – Banks, Cooper, Frazier I, Wepner. 4 times in 4 fights.
Frazier – Bonavena I 2x, Foreman I 6x, Foreman II 2x. 10 times in 3 fights.
Foreman – Ali, Lyle 2x, Young. 4 times in 3 fights.
Leon Spinks – Coetzee 3x, Holmes 2x, Ribalta 3x, Musone, Carlo. 10 times in 5 fights.

Holmes – Isaac, Shavers II, Snipes, Tyson 3x, Esch. 7 times in 5 fights.
Tyson – Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Williams, McBride. 5 times in 5 fights.
Douglas – Tyson, Holyfield, Savarese 3x. 5 times in 3 fights.
Holyfield – Cooper, Bowe I, Bowe III 2x, Ruiz II, Toney. 6 times in 5 fights.
Bowe – Holyfield III, Golota I 2x, Golota II 2x. 5 times in 3 fights.

Keep thinking Holmes got decked in an early fight besides Isaac, maybe not. Douglas may have more as well.