Smokin' Joe Frazier vs Iron Mike Tyson in their respective primes

[oogiebe]

Holyfield claimed he couldn't continue due to a cut but the cut wasn't serious. It wasn't stopped by the fight doctor.

True, but the ref is the one who declared it a no-contest, as it hadn't gone the four rounds. Holyfield claimed he couldn't see because of blood dripping into his eye. I didn't see any problematic blood at the time, so you can make whatever assumptions you'd like, but even though the appearance doesn't bode well for the Real Deal, I have a hard time accepting that he would ever quit.

[Ambling Alp II]

I think it comes down to Tyson being able to take Frazier's shots and Frazier not being able to take Tyson's. We saw Frazier dropped and hurt early multiple times. Frazier's only hope would seem to be to take Tyson out before he has a chance to land anything which seems extremely unlikely. Also, I find this notion that Tyson will quit or get discouraged if Frazier keeps fighting back comical. He didn't show a tendency to fold until the last few fights of his career. It's hardly indicative of his mindset in his prime. If Frazier was dropped three times the fight would almost certainly be stopped but if it wasn't Tyson would happily put him down a fourth time and more if needed.

Evander Holyfield quit against Sherman Williams. Does this prove prime Holyfield was a heartless bully who folded whenever anyone fought back?

Tyson would not be able to take Frazier's shots. He couldn't even take Holyfield's and Douglas'; they didn't have the power of Frazier.
Tyson folded in the Holyfield rematch.

[APerno]

I think it comes down to Tyson being able to take Frazier's shots and Frazier not being able to take Tyson's. We saw Frazier dropped and hurt early multiple times. Frazier's only hope would seem to be to take Tyson out before he has a chance to land anything which seems extremely unlikely. Also, I find this notion that Tyson will quit or get discouraged if Frazier keeps fighting back comical. He didn't show a tendency to fold until the last few fights of his career. It's hardly indicative of his mindset in his prime. If Frazier was dropped three times the fight would almost certainly be stopped but if it wasn't Tyson would happily put him down a fourth time and more if needed.

Evander Holyfield quit against Sherman Williams. Does this prove prime Holyfield was a heartless bully who folded whenever anyone fought back?

Don't necessarily know if you were referring to my statement, but I never thought 1988 Tyson had quit in him, only that, by the middle rounds, he seemed to lose that fierce early rounds fire he had, which might have opened the door for a Frazier come back. -- But I repeat myself it's hard to see Frazier survive Tyson early on.

[Cojimar 1946]

Douglas and Holyfield were late stoppages after a huge accumulation of punishment. Frazier would need to pound away round after round to stop Tyson, his punches are unlikely to affect Tyson much until the late rounds but he isn't going to be able to do that if Tyson stops him within 3 rounds which seems like the likely outcome.

[Onetimeonly]

Maybe on fantasy island.

[Onetimeonly]

I would have won a ton of money on this fight.

[APerno]

I would have won a ton of money on this fight.

As I said above I would never bet on this fight, both men were just too dangerous.

[Cojimar 1946]

It doesn't take a genius to see that Frazier's lack of defense and so-so durability could be a big problem against Tyson. The only Tysonesque puncher he fought demolished him.

Frazier isn't difficult to hit, Tyson is likely to land without much difficulty.

I've yet to hear anyone picking Frazier give a good argument as to how he is going to take Tyson's shots given he was demolished by the only big puncher he faced and hurt by lesser punchers. Is Frazier suddenly going to develop amazing defensive skills? Fight on the backfoot?

[Jacopodb]

Frazier had superior footwork to Tyson.

I cannot agree with that at all.

Neither do I: Tyson was quick & lethal.
Not that Frazier was flat footed, but the D'Amato shift was no joke, and Frazier couldn't do that, for example.
As I see it, Tyson's footwork was the cheekiest I've seen in heavyweight boxing.

Seriously, it was better than Alí's flaunted, overrated, showboating dance (fast as you want, but not effective as Tyson's essential footwork), due to which he could barely find a stable position to punch from.

Frazier's trademarks were obviously his torso and head movements: bobbing & weaving, counter left hooks, etc., but not his still-great footwork.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali's foot movement was effective. Just because it's different doesn't mean it isn't.

[Ambling Alp II]

Douglas and Holyfield were late stoppages after a huge accumulation of punishment. Frazier would need to pound away round after round to stop Tyson, his punches are unlikely to affect Tyson much until the late rounds but he isn't going to be able to do that if Tyson stops him within 3 rounds which seems like the likely outcome.

The "huge amount of punishment" that Tyson took against Holyfield and Douglas would not have stopped Frazier.
If anything that speaks to Tyson's defense and lack of a great chin. Plenty of other guys survived against Douglas and Holyfield.

Tyson never survived against anyone who had remotely the power of foreman. No reason to think he could have withstood it.

Frazier could hit a lot harder than Holyfield and Douglas; it's not even close. He would not have to land as often as they did to stop Tyson.

[Cojimar 1946]

A shot Tyson went 8 rounds with Lewis who probably hit harder than Foreman shot for shot. Ruddock was also a massive puncher and Tyson took his punches well.

Frazier was dropped early by Bruce, Bonavena, and Foreman. We never saw Tyson decked early despite facing a much bigger collection of hitters-Bruno, Smith, Ruddock, Lewis, etc. Tyson clearly showed he was more difficult to hurt in the early rounds than Frazier was.

[Onetimeonly]

how many times did Mike get up?

[oogiebe]

We're talking prime Tyson. Pre-Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Later Tyson was no match for prime Frazier.

[APerno]

Douglas and Holyfield were late stoppages after a huge accumulation of punishment. Frazier would need to pound away round after round to stop Tyson, his punches are unlikely to affect Tyson much until the late rounds but he isn't going to be able to do that if Tyson stops him within 3 rounds which seems like the likely outcome.

The "huge amount of punishment" that Tyson took against Holyfield and Douglas would not have stopped Frazier.
If anything that speaks to Tyson's defense and lack of a great chin. Plenty of other guys survived against Douglas and Holyfield.

Tyson never survived against anyone who had remotely the power of foreman. No reason to think he could have withstood it.

Frazier could hit a lot harder than Holyfield and Douglas; it's not even close. He would not have to land as often as they did to stop Tyson.

I agree with/respect much of what you argue except for that Douglas upper cut; that upper cut was perfect and would have set-up just about anyone for a follow up stoppage; Foreman's upper cut against Cooney, same thing. Upper cuts really hurt and seem to cause a temporary disconnect of the brain.

I thought if Foreman had gotten his second shot against Tyson and not Holyfield he would have nailed Tyson with that upper cut before Douglas did.

Funny, I am probably wrong, but I would never have bet on a Frazier-Tyson fight either way, even though I favor Tyson; but I would have bet on Foreman in a Foreman-Tyson fight.

[Onetimeonly]

We're talking prime Tyson. Pre-Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Later Tyson was no match for prime Frazier.

[oogiebe]

We're talking prime Tyson. Pre-Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Later Tyson was no match for prime Frazier.

Not sure why you are laughing. Later Tyson would have been mauled by Frazier. Why is that funny? Or are you drunk again?

[Ambling Alp II]

He probably doesn't buy the BS that Tyson wasn't in his prime vs Douglas.

[APerno]

I think it is fair to argue that Tyson was mentally fatigued by the time he got to the Tokyo fight. That woman and her mother hurt that kid bad. That interview was nothing short of spouse abuse!

[oogiebe]

He probably doesn't buy the BS that Tyson wasn't in his prime vs Douglas.

You actually think Tyson was in his prime when he faced Douglas??!!!

[Ambling Alp II]

My bad. Clearly the aging 23-year old Tyson was shot by the Douglas fight; he had been in so many ring wars. His decline in his last few fights leading up to the Douglas fight was obvious which is why no one gave him any chance.

[Onetimeonly]

We're talking prime Tyson. Pre-Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Later Tyson was no match for prime Frazier.

Not sure why you are laughing. Later Tyson would have been mauled by Frazier. Why is that funny? Or are you drunk again?

I think it's funny that Douglas is post prime Tyson. Mike certainly has a slight punchers chance against Joe

[Jacopodb]

Douglas and Holyfield were late stoppages after a huge accumulation of punishment. Frazier would need to pound away round after round to stop Tyson, his punches are unlikely to affect Tyson much until the late rounds but he isn't going to be able to do that if Tyson stops him within 3 rounds which seems like the likely outcome.

The "huge amount of punishment" that Tyson took against Holyfield and Douglas would not have stopped Frazier.
If anything that speaks to Tyson's defense and lack of a great chin. Plenty of other guys survived against Douglas and Holyfield.

Tyson never survived against anyone who had remotely the power of foreman. No reason to think he could have withstood it.

Frazier could hit a lot harder than Holyfield and Douglas; it's not even close. He would not have to land as often as they did to stop Tyson.

I agree with/respect much of what you argue except for that Douglas upper cut; that upper cut was perfect and would have set-up just about anyone for a follow up stoppage; Foreman's upper cut against Cooney, same thing. Upper cuts really hurt and seem to cause a temporary disconnect of the brain.

I thought if Foreman had gotten his second shot against Tyson and not Holyfield he would have nailed Tyson with that upper cut before Douglas did.

Funny, I am probably wrong, but I would never have bet on a Frazier-Tyson fight either way, even though I favor Tyson; but I would have bet on Foreman in a Foreman-Tyson fight.

Without taking anything from Douglas' uppercuts, obviously, I believe it was mainly Tyson's excess of confidence, which lead to that: he didn't see it coming, and props to Douglas anyway, but that was a huge reality-check for Iron Mike: that's probably what he really meant by his famous motto "BE REAL"...

[oogiebe]

We're talking prime Tyson. Pre-Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Later Tyson was no match for prime Frazier.

Not sure why you are laughing. Later Tyson would have been mauled by Frazier. Why is that funny? Or are you drunk again?

I think it's funny that Douglas is post prime Tyson. Mike certainly has a slight punchers chance against Joe

He no longer had the head movement; footwork; combinations; or discipline. Physically he should have been in his prime, but sadly he was well on the decline skill wise. No Rooney; his street buddies in his corner; Condoms for end swells; Robin Givens and Ruth Roper; etc.

[oogiebe]

My bad. Clearly the aging 23-year old Tyson was shot by the Douglas fight; he had been in so many ring wars. His decline in his last few fights leading up to the Douglas fight was obvious which is why no one gave him any chance.

Sarcasm doesn't win arguments. I'm surprised at this response. You usually make decent arguments.

Getting back on topic, with 24 votes in, Frazier is 11 KO's 1 Dec to Tyson 11 Ko's and one Draw.