Does Chris Eubank have the potential to be world class?

[oogiebe]

No.

He's a fit lad but doesn't have the boxing ability to be world class

I disagree.
He's got all the stuff, "you can't teach" in spades, so - if you teach him - he should be very good indeed.
The problem for me is - is there enough time for him to learn to become world class?

First he has to start listening, and at age 30 I don't think he will magically become a good student and maximize his natural gifts.

[ewenhay]

No.

He's a fit lad but doesn't have the boxing ability to be world class

I disagree.
He's got all the stuff, "you can't teach" in spades, so - if you teach him - he should be very good indeed.
The problem for me is - is there enough time for him to learn to become world class?

He's not a young lad anymore though. Guys with skills have learned them over many years

[skanksta]

No.

He's a fit lad but doesn't have the boxing ability to be world class

I disagree.
He's got all the stuff, "you can't teach" in spades, so - if you teach him - he should be very good indeed.
The problem for me is - is there enough time for him to learn to become world class?

First he has to start listening, and at age 30 I don't think he will magically become a good student and maximize his natural gifts.

Yeah that.
Time is not on his side, but he DOES have the potential. He's very athletic - IF he listens and learns and improves quickly - he could be a dominant World No.1 from (say) age 35-37.

[verlichte]

Chris Eubank Jr. is already world-class....

Nate Vasquez's brutal honesty to Eubank Jr: ‘Your defence is s***, your footwork’s horrible and you’ve got a lot to work on.’

yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?

Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...

all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.

now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'

You’ve moved your stance.

You originally quoted two separate sentences that appeared to suggest that having very little boxing skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive.

So, I listed several world-renowned sluggers who didn’t have great jabs, good footwork or could possibly be considered as being defensively sound but were still world-class fighters in they heyday.

Now you’ve moved your argument to claim that a fighter can only be world-class if they have beaten a world-rated opponent.

So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words? It seems a bit silly to do that if it doesn’t actually relate to your original argument, now does it?

I usually refrain from this type of post, but you really are an annoying pudendum!

I don't mind being called an "annoying pudendum" by people that are frustrated about being regularly proven wrong.

In fact, I might even own the phrase and create a BoxRec account going by that name.

Insults are a badge of honour, since they're usually an admission of defeat.

[oogiebe]

No.

He's a fit lad but doesn't have the boxing ability to be world class

I disagree.
He's got all the stuff, "you can't teach" in spades, so - if you teach him - he should be very good indeed.
The problem for me is - is there enough time for him to learn to become world class?

First he has to start listening, and at age 30 I don't think he will magically become a good student and maximize his natural gifts.

Yeah that.
Time is not on his side, but he DOES have the potential. He's very athletic - IF he listens and learns and improves quickly - he could be a dominant World No.1 from (say) age 35-37.

He's always had the potential. But unfortunately not the intestinal fortitude to do the proper work. History is littered with unfulfilled potential.

[oogiebe]

Chris Eubank Jr. is already world-class....

Nate Vasquez's brutal honesty to Eubank Jr: ‘Your defence is s***, your footwork’s horrible and you’ve got a lot to work on.’

yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?

Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...

all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.

now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'

You’ve moved your stance.

You originally quoted two separate sentences that appeared to suggest that having very little boxing skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive.

So, I listed several world-renowned sluggers who didn’t have great jabs, good footwork or could possibly be considered as being defensively sound but were still world-class fighters in they heyday.

Now you’ve moved your argument to claim that a fighter can only be world-class if they have beaten a world-rated opponent.

So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words? It seems a bit silly to do that if it doesn’t actually relate to your original argument, now does it?

I usually refrain from this type of post, but you really are an annoying pudendum!

I don't mind being called an "annoying pudendum" by people that are frustrated about being regularly proven wrong.

In fact, I might even own the phrase and create a BoxRec account going by that name.

Insults are a badge of honour, since they're usually an admission of defeat.

If you stop posting then people will only THINK you are an idiot.

[m1kee50]

Eubank Jr is clearly massively talented but I think the epitaph on his career will be 'lost his biggest fights', and I think this will be no exception.

You don't become world-class by losing to world-class fighters.

When Eubank lost to BJS for European/British titles, no-one at all took seriously that his next fight got him the interim WBA title. He quietly dropped it and went back to British title level for the fight with Blackwell, because that was the level he had reached at that point. Similarly, from Quinlan onwards, no-one regarded him as a world champion, his fight against Groves was a shot at world class which he fell short in.

The fight against DeGale, IMO, is another step up. DeGale has avenged his loss, and while he hasn't been as busy in the last four years, I think on the whole, his opposition has been of a higher standard.

DeGale is still just about world class, Eubank Jr beating DeGale convincingly will make Eubank Jr a world class fighter. Losing to him will confirm that he is not.

[oogiebe]

Eubank Jr is clearly massively talented but I think the epitaph on his career will be 'lost his biggest fights', and I think this will be no exception.

You don't become world-class by losing to world-class fighters.

When Eubank lost to BJS for European/British titles, no-one at all took seriously that his next fight got him the interim WBA title. He quietly dropped it and went back to British title level for the fight with Blackwell, because that was the level he had reached at that point. Similarly, from Quinlan onwards, no-one regarded him as a world champion, his fight against Groves was a shot at world class which he fell short in.

The fight against DeGale, IMO, is another step up. DeGale has avenged his loss, and while he hasn't been as busy in the last four years, I think on the whole, his opposition has been of a higher standard.

DeGale is still just about world class, Eubank Jr beating DeGale convincingly will make Eubank Jr a world class fighter. Losing to him will confirm that he is not.

And there you have it. End of thread! lol!

[m1kee50]

Eubank Jr is clearly massively talented but I think the epitaph on his career will be 'lost his biggest fights', and I think this will be no exception.

You don't become world-class by losing to world-class fighters.

When Eubank lost to BJS for European/British titles, no-one at all took seriously that his next fight got him the interim WBA title. He quietly dropped it and went back to British title level for the fight with Blackwell, because that was the level he had reached at that point. Similarly, from Quinlan onwards, no-one regarded him as a world champion, his fight against Groves was a shot at world class which he fell short in.

The fight against DeGale, IMO, is another step up. DeGale has avenged his loss, and while he hasn't been as busy in the last four years, I think on the whole, his opposition has been of a higher standard.

DeGale is still just about world class, Eubank Jr beating DeGale convincingly will make Eubank Jr a world class fighter. Losing to him will confirm that he is not.

And there you have it. End of thread! lol!

to chime in on the discussion you were having above... theres almost no such thing as a perfect fighter, if you went by 'on their best day', Lennox Lewis would beat Rocky Marciano every time... but Marciano retired undefeated and Lewis had 2 KO losses... as I like to say 'thats why we have the fights', because thats the only way to settle it, and sometimes it doesnt actually go the way the form guide says it should.

To go by his demonstrated skillset Eubank Jr is a phenomenal talent... but he's failed to overcome his two biggest hurdles. Results trump perceived ability, and rightly so IMO

[oogiebe]

Agreed. As I said earlier, history is littered with unfulfilled potential.

[Counter-puncher]

Chris Eubank Jr. is already world-class....

Nate Vasquez's brutal honesty to Eubank Jr: ‘Your defence is s***, your footwork’s horrible and you’ve got a lot to work on.’

yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?

Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...

all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.

now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'

You’ve moved your stance.


So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words?

god, you're dumb

okay, lets take the fighters you mentioned, who had some technical definiciencies

they did, at least, have wins over world class opponents

then you have Eubank jr

who has technical definiciences, lots of them

and NO wins over world class opponents

so, the 'saving grace' or the likes of say Marciano, would be despite his deficiencies, he at least beat someone worth beating

Eubank jr doesn't have that so say in his favour, either

so he has sub-par skills

and a sub-par resume

making my point that he isn't world class- not contradicting it as you suggest, but underscoring and supporting my point

what do you call a man without world class skills, and without world class wins, fugmo?

here's a clue- NOT a 'world class fighter'.

[verlichte]

Chris Eubank Jr. is already world-class....

Nate Vasquez's brutal honesty to Eubank Jr: ‘Your defence is s***, your footwork’s horrible and you’ve got a lot to work on.’

yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?

Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...

all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.

now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'

You’ve moved your stance.


So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words?

god, you're dumb

okay, lets take the fighters you mentioned, who had some technical definiciencies

they did, at least, have wins over world class opponents

then you have Eubank jr

who has technical definiciences, lots of them

and NO wins over world class opponents

so, the 'saving grace' or the likes of say Marciano, would be despite his deficiencies, he at least beat someone worth beating

Eubank jr doesn't have that so say in his favour, either

so he has sub-par skills

and a sub-par resume

making my point that he isn't world class- not contradicting it as you suggest, but underscoring and supporting my point

what do you call a man without world class skills, and without world class wins, fugmo?

here's a clue- NOT a 'world class fighter'.

You didn't answer my question, did you? You've blatantly avoided it, because I've already debunked it.

Why did you go out of your way to specifically quote Nate Vasquez's words if it doesn't actually relate to your argument.

If you’d originally said that Eubank Jr. can’t be considered world-class, because he’s never beaten a world-class fighter – I wouldn’t have challenged you, since that's a reasonable stance to take.

Instead you claimed that lacking skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive, when we all know this to be blatantly wrong.

You're just back-tracking, clutching at straws and moving the goalposts to strengthen your stance.

[oogiebe]

Chris Eubank Jr. is already world-class....

Nate Vasquez's brutal honesty to Eubank Jr: ‘Your defence is s***, your footwork’s horrible and you’ve got a lot to work on.’

yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?

Was Rocky Marciano world-class? Was Jack Dempsey world-class? Was Arturo Gatti world-class? Was Stanley Ketchel world-class? Was the early version of Nigel Benn world-class? Was David Tua world-class? Was David Lemieux world-class? Was Ernie SHavers world-class? The list goes on-and-on...

all these people you quote who have world class wins, that prove them to be world classyou mean? some of them world champions for several years.

now, very slowly, why don't you name me the world class wins that might make CEJ world class himself? I'll give you a clue- it isn't a 'list that goes on and on'

You’ve moved your stance.


So why did you even bother to quote Nate Vasquez's words?

god, you're dumb

okay, lets take the fighters you mentioned, who had some technical definiciencies

they did, at least, have wins over world class opponents

then you have Eubank jr

who has technical definiciences, lots of them

and NO wins over world class opponents

so, the 'saving grace' or the likes of say Marciano, would be despite his deficiencies, he at least beat someone worth beating

Eubank jr doesn't have that so say in his favour, either

so he has sub-par skills

and a sub-par resume

making my point that he isn't world class- not contradicting it as you suggest, but underscoring and supporting my point

what do you call a man without world class skills, and without world class wins, fugmo?

here's a clue- NOT a 'world class fighter'.

You didn't answer my question, did you? You've blatantly avoided it, because I've already debunked it.

Why did you go out of your way to specifically quote Nate Vasquez's words if it doesn't actually relate to your argument.

If you’d originally said that Eubank Jr. can’t be considered world-class, because he’s never beaten a world-class fighter – I wouldn’t have challenged you, since that's a reasonable stance to take.

Instead you claimed that lacking skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive, when we all know this to be blatantly wrong.

Sheesh! This is like Enlightened One meets Kalan!

[dickbelden]

chris eubank IS world class.

[Thomastearns]

I can't remember too many fighters who successfully managed to change their style late in their careers. The only obvious ones are Wladimir Klitschko and Bernhard Hopkins who were both able to tighten up their defences considerably.

Can Eubank do the same? I don't know, but I'd love to see it. He often talks about 'living the life', well come on Chris, let's see you do this. Footwork, footwork, footwork...

[patrickrogan]

Does a duck have the potential to be a pony? Some of the ridiculous questions on this board are hilarious

I'd say it's a perfectly sound question for someone whose still learning about the sport and was curious to get other people's opinions

[verlichte]

I can't remember too many fighters who successfully managed to change their style late in their careers. The only obvious ones are Wladimir Klitschko and Bernhard Hopkins who were both able to tighten up their defences considerably.

Could we include Johnny Nelson amongst that list of names?

Johnny Nelson is almost certainly one of the all-time-great cruiserweights, because he almost continuously showed signs of improvement and he was also unbeaten for the final decade (21 bouts) of his career, with 14 of them being world championship fights, which I believe is a record that has never been surpassed.

Johnny Nelson’s resume seems poor, because he failed to win 24% of his 59 bouts and also suffered a dozen losses (three of these defeats were suffered during the first three bouts of his career).

[verlichte]

Chris Eubank Jr. is already world-class....

Nate Vasquez's brutal honesty to Eubank Jr: ‘Your defence is s***, your footwork’s horrible and you’ve got a lot to work on.’

yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?

It’s clear that you originally claimed that lacking skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive, when we all know this to be blatantly untrue.

You then moved the goalposts of your argument to include quality of resume within the scope of your “world-class” criteria, simply because it was a debating tactic to strengthen your stance, since it’s clear you’ve already abandoned your original claim.

So it seems you’ve already conceded defeat, due to your selective amnesia, and there is nothing else to discuss.

[oogiebe]

Chris Eubank Jr. is already world-class....

Nate Vasquez's brutal honesty to Eubank Jr: ‘Your defence is s***, your footwork’s horrible and you’ve got a lot to work on.’

yeah, so apart from his s*** defence and horrible footwork, and an inability to throw a jab, and sundry other technical deficiencies, he's world class, yeah?

It’s clear that you originally claimed that lacking skill and being world-class were mutually exclusive, when we all know this to be blatantly untrue.

You then moved the goalposts of your argument to include quality of resume within the scope of your “world-class” criteria, simply because it was a debating tactic to strengthen your stance, since it’s clear you’ve already abandoned your original claim.

So it seems you’ve already conceded defeat, due to your selective amnesia, and there is nothing else to discuss.

Somewhere a village is missing their idiot...

[Eolaithe]

Chris Eubank Jr. is already world class. He hasn't beaten anyone of note though and he'll never become a world champion. He just happens to be one of the top ten 168lb-ers on the planet.

[oogiebe]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that a boxer can be world class one fight and not world class the next, or fall from world class with losses and no significant wins after being world class before. So right now, no...Eubank isn't world class.

[JxhDel.]

If DeGale outboxes him (as probably could happen), he is almost never going to be truly world-class.

[gilgamesh]

Depending on how you view World Class I'd say he's already there. He can certainly be competitive with most anybody in the world at Boxing, but the guys at the very top are better than him. So when you take into account how many people he's better than I'd say he's world class, but it's all a matter of perspective.

I think he'll beat Degale, but then again I've thought he'd win fights in the past that he wound up not winning so who knows. If he can't beat Degale though I don't see him ever getting a particularly noteworthy win.

[Cent0089]

I dont know if anybody agrees with me but i think he IS world class.

[Thomastearns]

In his own mind he's already been world class for many years now, its was just the judges who didn't see it that way.

I'd love to see Chris try to take on board suggestions from his new coach, Nate Vasquez. No one likes facing opponents who don't have any obvious weakness. They can often end up imagining there's one there and then usually come unstuck spectacularly as a result.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indepe ... html%3famp

His previous trainer/mascot Ronnie Davis, meanwhile had to struggle for years with the standard dilemma of whether to keep collecting the cheque, or telling his employer what he could do with his overinflated ego.

I don't blame Chris Jr for this, or his famous rich father. Eubank Sr probably felt that blooding his son through fire would be enough without too much concern for technique. It worked for him, sort of, with his counter punching strategy.

You could also argue that Jr is already better than his dad, but that's not enough now for the ambitions both men have.