HW Champs hitting the deck

SteveO · Post by **SteveO** » 13 Feb 2019, 15:39

oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 11:54 Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.

No it wasn't.

Onetimeonly · Post by **Onetimeonly** » 13 Feb 2019, 17:00

Cooper gets credit for a holy kd even though Cooper took a frightful beating that round.

oogiebe · Post by **oogiebe** » 13 Feb 2019, 17:23

SteveO wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 15:39
oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 11:54 Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.
No it wasn't.

Yeah, ,I already fell on my sword on this thread.

APerno · Post by **APerno** » 14 Feb 2019, 15:23

Charles- Marshall I 8x, Walcott III, Marciano II 3x, Holman I 3x, Andrews, Matthews, Fleeman, 2x, Logan 3x. 22 times in 8 fights.

Boxrec has Charles going down three (3) times against Fleeman: "Charles was down twice in the 5th."

I am assuming there has to be a third knockdown because it is then records a clean KO in the 6th.

Any thoughts?

Marshall (8)
Walcott III (1)
Marciano II (3)
Holamn I (3)
Andrews (1)
Matthews (1)
Fleeman (3)
Logan (3)
__________

23 times in eight fights

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 15 Feb 2019, 11:48

oogiebe wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 17:23
SteveO wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 15:39
oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 11:54 Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.
No it wasn't.
Yeah, ,I already fell on my sword on this thread.

Norton found that belt in a packet of Corn Flakes he opened one morning.

There was nothing lineal about.

Ken Norton would make a great trivial pursuit question; 'Which heavyweight champion of the world never won a heavyweight title fight?'

That would make trivial pursuitists heads spin, that's for sure.

APerno · Post by **APerno** » 15 Feb 2019, 12:58

Syntax Error wrote: ↑15 Feb 2019, 11:48
oogiebe wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 17:23
SteveO wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 15:39
oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 11:54 Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.
No it wasn't.
Yeah, ,I already fell on my sword on this thread.
Norton found that belt in a packet of Corn Flakes he opened one morning.

There was nothing lineal about.

Ken Norton would make a great trivial pursuit question; 'Which heavyweight champion of the world never won a heavyweight title fight?'

That would make trivial pursuitists heads spin, that's for sure.

Max Schmeling ! And he is considered lineal no less.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 15 Feb 2019, 13:51

APerno wrote: ↑15 Feb 2019, 12:58
Syntax Error wrote: ↑15 Feb 2019, 11:48
oogiebe wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 17:23
SteveO wrote: ↑13 Feb 2019, 15:39
oogiebe wrote: ↑08 Feb 2019, 11:54 Norton should be included merely because he had the WBC title when he lost it to Holmes. That was considered lineal at the time.
No it wasn't.
Yeah, ,I already fell on my sword on this thread.
Norton found that belt in a packet of Corn Flakes he opened one morning.

There was nothing lineal about.

Ken Norton would make a great trivial pursuit question; 'Which heavyweight champion of the world never won a heavyweight title fight?'

That would make trivial pursuitists heads spin, that's for sure.
Max Schmeling ! And he is considered lineal no less.

Good call.

SteveO · Post by **SteveO** » 15 Feb 2019, 15:52

Max Schmeling won the vacant/lineal title against Jack Sharkey, albeit on a disqualification - nevertheless it was a win!

APerno · Post by **APerno** » 15 Feb 2019, 16:48

SteveO wrote: ↑15 Feb 2019, 15:52 Max Schmeling won the vacant/lineal title against Jack Sharkey, albeit on a disqualification - nevertheless it was a win!

How much difference is there between a Mexican bandit (Suliaman) pointing at Norton and saying you're the champion and a zebra pointing at Schmeling sitting on his ass, holding his balls, saying you're the champion. That's not 'winning a title fight'

But I am just screwing around I recognize the difference.

Two weeks after Schmeling-Sharkey in a title elimination bout Primo Carnera got disqualified for a low blow and the NYSAC finally took action and announced it would allow fighters to wear protective belts. Up until that time fighters wore nothing under their trunks except a jock strap and a cup. The belief was that if you allowed fighters to were protection it would encourage low blows and unsportsmanlike behavior. But having two major fights, back to back, go sour they finally changed the rules.

Then the purists complained because the rule was odd: If you got hit with a low blow and went down the ref was to start counting, but when you got up you were then allowed to take a five minute rest if you wanted it, and you opponent lost the round on the score cards. But you had to get up or you were counted out. (There had been too many fakers about.) -- The purists howled at the bizarre rule: "Foul lightly and lose the round, foul hard and win the fight."

It took years to get to the rules we have today.

And speaking of trivia, fighters in New York did not wear mouth guards until 1927.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 16 Feb 2019, 22:28

I made a few adjustments from my last post. Added Charles getting knockdown against Fleeman 3x, Liston against Marshall II, and Holyfield against Cooper. I'm sure we will find more. Let's keep digging. This is fun.

APerno · Post by **APerno** » 17 Feb 2019, 00:42

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑16 Feb 2019, 22:28 I made a few adjustments from my last post. Added Charles getting knockdown against Fleeman 3x, Liston against Marshall II, and Holyfield against Cooper. I'm sure we will find more. Let's keep digging. This is fun.

That adds a third round KD to Holyfield; ref says he was held up by the ropes; probably why it didn't get much press

That adds a sixth round KD to Charles

Can't find any info on Sonny going down; have you got a round for Liston - Marshall II ?

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 17 Feb 2019, 17:25

It happened in the fourth round. Liston's people claimed he tripped or something. Apparently the official did start a count, so technically it should count. Not to say there isn't some evidence out there that contradicts it.

APerno · Post by **APerno** » 17 Feb 2019, 23:49

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 20 Feb 2019, 12:03

OK, I added the last 6, (Moorer to Fury) so we are have all 37.

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, O'Brien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson - Choynski, Ketchel, Willard, Lawson, Wright. 5 times in 5 fights
Willard - Dempsey 7x, Firpo. 8 times in 2 fights
Dempsey - Flynn, Firpo 2x, Tunney II. 4 times in 3 fights
Tunney - Dempsey II. 1 time in 1 fight
Schmeling - Gains, Daniels, Baer, Louis II 3x. 6 times in 4 fights

Sharkey – Rojas 2x, Maloney II 5x, Dempsey, Carnera, Levinsky, Loughran II, Brubaker, Louis 4x. 16 times in 8 fights.
Carnera – Stribling I, Sharkey I, Baer 11x, Louis 3x, Haynes I. 17 times in 5 fights.
Baer – Louis 3x, Nova II, 2x. 5 times in two fights.
Braddock – Stone, Kelly, Griffin, Louis. 4 times in 4 fights.
Louis – Schmeling I 2x,, Braddock, Galento, B. Baer I, Walcott I 2x, Walcott II, Marciano 2x. 10 times in 7 fights.

Charles- Marshall I 8x, Walcott III, Marciano II 3x, Holman I 3x, Andrews, Matthews, Fleeman, 3x, Logan 3x. 23 times in 8 fights.
Walcott – Allen, Ettore, Sheppard, Fox, Simon, Louis, Charles II, Marciano I, Marciano II. 9 times in 9 fights.
Marciano – Walcott I and Moore. 2 times in 2 fights.
Patterson – Crecy, Radamacher, Harris, Johansson I 7x, Johansson III 2x, Liston I, Liston II 3x, Ali I, Quarry I 2x, Quarry II 2x, Bonavena. 22 times in 11 fights.
Johansson – Pellegrini, Patterson II 2x, Patterson III 2x, Snoek, London. 7 times in 5 fights.

Liston – Marshall II, Ali II, Martin. 3 times in 3 fights.
Ali – Banks, Cooper, Frazier I, Wepner. 4 times in 4 fights.
Frazier – Bonavena I 2x, Foreman I 6x, Foreman II 2x. 10 times in 3 fights.
Foreman – Ali, Lyle 2x, Young. 4 times in 3 fights.
Leon Spinks – Coetzee 3x, Holmes 2x, Ribalta 3x, Musone, Carlo. 10 times in 5 fights.

Holmes – Isaac, Shavers II, Snipes, Tyson 3x, Esch. 7 times in 5 fights.
Michael Spinks - Qawi, Tyson 2x. 3 times in 2 fights.
Tyson – Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis, Williams, McBride. 5 times in 5 fights.
Douglas – Tyson, Holyfield, Savarese 3x. 5 times in 3 fights.
Holyfield – Cooper, Bowe I, Bowe III 2x, Ruiz II, Toney. 6 times in 5 fights.
Bowe – Holyfield III, Golota I 2x, Golota II 2x. 5 times in 3 fights.

Moorer – Martin, Cooper 2x, Holyfield I, Foreman, Holyfield II 5x, Tua, Jirov. 12 times in 5 fights.
Briggs – Wilson, Lewis 3x, McCline. 5 times in 3 fights.
Rahman – Maskeav I, Lewis II, Maskeav II, 2x, W. Klitschko, Povetkin. 6 times in 5 fights.
Lewis – McCall I, Rahman I. 2 times in 2 fights.
Klitschko - Pannell, Puritty, Sanders 4x, Williamson, Brewster, Peter I 3x, Joshua 3x. 14 times in 6 fights.
Fury - Cunningham, Wilder 2x. 3 times in 2 fights.

Realized that I missed Michael Spinks earlier. He has now been added.

Duran1970 · Post by **Duran1970** » 20 Feb 2019, 13:27

Fury was down vs pacjik? I believe

Tuan_Jim · Post by **Tuan_Jim** » 20 Feb 2019, 14:17

Alp, Tyson was down twice versus Lewis. Once in the 4th, and for the count in the 8th.

You're also missing some for Leon Spinks. Tony Morrison KOd him in 1, in about 30 seconds, a few weeks before Tyson/Spinks.

Speaking of Michael Spinks, he never went down versus Qawi. Tyson was the first man to knock him down.

Shannon Briggs went down versus Ibragimov.

Also, why have you given Golota knockdowns over Bowe in their first fight? Golota didn't score any KDs. Bowe went down from illegal shots to the balls, which the ref did not score as KDs, for obvious reasons. Bowe was only down in Holyfield III and Golota II.

gregor · Post by **gregor** » 20 Feb 2019, 14:51

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 Feb 2019, 12:03 Rahman – Maskeav I, Lewis II, Maskeav II, 2x, W. Klitschko, Povetkin. 6 times in 5 fights.

7 times in 6 fights. He was counted against Sanders as well.

APerno · Post by **APerno** » 20 Feb 2019, 19:24

Here is a bit of a technicality, Klitschko goes down in the fifth and gets up, the bell sounds and Klitschko goes down again after the bell, but the ref wavs off the fight based on Klitschko going down the second time after the bell. Right now we have it as 1 KD, should it b two?

From AP Report

Midway through the fifth round, Brewster landed the left hooks that changed the fight. Klitschko was hurt and went into the ropes, where Byrd ruled a knockdown. (KD 1) Brewster went back after him and had him hurt when the bell sounded, and then Klitschko went down again. (KD ?)

Klitschko, though, had trouble getting up, getting to his knees and then haltingly to his feet. Byrd stopped the fight as Klitschko stumbled to his corner, giving Brewster the win by TKO at 3:00 of the fifth round.

APerno · Post by **APerno** » 20 Feb 2019, 19:54

Are we not going to include Oliver McCall - Is that because it was pre-Briggs for Lewis? (I guess I just answered my own question, lineal.) Kind of a shame it was such an exciting upset for McCall.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 21 Feb 2019, 11:41

Thanks for all of these additions guys; I know there are several more. Let's keep looking.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 28 Feb 2019, 11:52

Made the additions that people mentioned. This is what we have as of right now:

Corbett - Sullivan, Fitzsimmons, Sharkey, Jeffries I, Jeffries II (2x). total of being knocked down 5 times in 6 fights.
Fitzsimmons - Corbett, Hall, Choynski, Jeffries I (4x) Jeffries II, Johnson, Lang. 10 times in 7 fights.
Jeffries - Johnson (3x) 3 times in 1 fight.
Hart - Hanarahan, Carter I, Carter II, Root I, Root II, O'Brien, Ferguson, Willie (3x) Ross, Morris (3x). 14 times in 9 fights
Burns - Sholtreau, Schreck, McCune, Johnson, Pelkey, Beckett (2x). 7 times in 6 fights

Johnson - Choynski, Ketchel, Willard, Lawson, Wright. 5 times in 5 fights
Willard - Dempsey 7x, Firpo. 8 times in 2 fights
Dempsey - Flynn, Firpo 2x, Tunney II. 4 times in 3 fights
Tunney - Dempsey II. 1 time in 1 fight
Schmeling - Gains, Daniels, Baer, Louis II 3x. 6 times in 4 fights

Sharkey – Rojas 2x, Maloney II 5x, Dempsey, Carnera, Levinsky, Loughran II, Brubaker, Louis 4x. 16 times in 8 fights.
Carnera – Stribling I, Sharkey I, Baer 11x, Louis 3x, Haynes I. 17 times in 5 fights.
Baer – Louis 3x, Nova II, 2x. 5 times in two fights.
Braddock – Stone, Kelly, Griffin, Louis. 4 times in 4 fights.
Louis – Schmeling I 2x,, Braddock, Galento, B. Baer I, Walcott I 2x, Walcott II, Marciano 2x. 10 times in 7 fights.

Charles- Marshall I 8x, Walcott III, Marciano II 3x, Holman I 3x, Andrews, Matthews, Fleeman, 3x, Logan 3x. 23 times in 8 fights.
Walcott – Allen, Ettore, Sheppard, Fox, Simon, Louis, Charles II, Marciano I, Marciano II. 9 times in 9 fights.
Marciano – Walcott I and Moore. 2 times in 2 fights.
Patterson – Crecy, Radamacher, Harris, Johansson I 7x, Johansson III 2x, Liston I, Liston II 3x, Ali I, Quarry I 2x, Quarry II 2x, Bonavena. 22 times in 11 fights.
Johansson – Pellegrini, Patterson II 2x, Patterson III 2x, Snoek, London. 7 times in 5 fights.

Liston – Marshall II, Ali II, Martin. 3 times in 3 fights.
Ali – Banks, Cooper, Frazier I, Wepner. 4 times in 4 fights.
Frazier – Bonavena I 2x, Foreman I 6x, Foreman II 2x. 10 times in 3 fights.
Foreman – Ali, Lyle 2x, Young. 4 times in 3 fights.
Leon Spinks – Coetzee 3x, Holmes 2x, Ribalta 3x, Tony Morrison, Musone, Carlo. 11 times in 6 fights.

Holmes – Isaac, Shavers II, Snipes, Tyson 3x, Esch. 7 times in 5 fights.
Michael Spinks - Qawi, Tyson 2x. 3 times in 2 fights.
Tyson – Douglas, Holyfield, Lewis 2x, Williams, McBride. 6 times in 5 fights.
Douglas – Tyson, Holyfield, Savarese 3x. 5 times in 3 fights.
Holyfield – Cooper, Bowe I, Bowe III 2x, Ruiz II, Toney. 6 times in 5 fights.
Bowe – Holyfield III, Golota II 2x. 3 times in 2 fights.

Moorer – Martin, Cooper 2x, Holyfield I, Foreman, Holyfield II 5x, Tua, Jirov. 12 times in 5 fights.
Briggs – Wilson, Lewis 3x, McCline, Ibrigimov. 6 times in 4 fights.
Rahman – SAnders, Maskeav I, Lewis II, Maskeav II, 2x, W. Klitschko, Povetkin. 7 times in 6 fights.
Lewis – McCall I, Rahman I. 2 times in 2 fights.
Klitschko - Pannell, Puritty, Sanders 4x, Williamson, Brewster, Peter I 3x, Joshua 3x. 14 times in 6 fights.
Fury - Cunningham, Pajkic, Wilder 2x. 4 times in 3 fights.

* I think only one knockdown against Klitschko officially counts.

Hopefully people can come up with more; I;m sure we are missing some.
Also think I will start looking into knockdowns that should have counted but weren't.

APerno · Post by **APerno** » 07 Mar 2019, 20:04

http://www.perno.com/lists/HWCKD.html

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 20 Mar 2019, 10:55

In their second fight, Shavers actually knocked Holmes down twice, but the one in the 9th round was not counted. It looked legit.
Someone else mentioned that Lewis was knocked down against Akinwande. What round was that?

Contendeh · Post by **Contendeh** » 20 Mar 2019, 22:59

Great thread!

Is there any documentation/what’s the story behind ezzard’s 8 kds to Marshall?

Obviously, a bad hip injury would postpone a fight nowadays.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 21 Mar 2019, 13:18

Ambling Alp II wrote: ↑20 Mar 2019, 10:55 In their second fight, Shavers actually knocked Holmes down twice, but the one in the 9th round was not counted. It looked legit.
Someone else mentioned that Lewis was knocked down against Akinwande. What round was that?

Akinwande knocked down Lewis half way through round 3.

It was strange because Lewis hardly touched down and was back up in the blink of an eye.

HW Champs hitting the deck

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