Being new here, I have been reading some of the old posts. In the thread about greatest heavyweights of the decades it was suggested someone tackle the middleweights next. I can't see that anyone ever did it, so I thought I'd give it a try.
I don't claim to be an expert, so any comments are welcome, especially about the earlier periods.
1900s.
1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Tommy Ryan
3. Jack O'Brien
4. Kid McCoy
5. Billy Papke
6. Jack Sullivan
First two are straightforward, bit of a struggle for the rest. McCoy was probably really a Light-Heavy by now.
1910s
1. Les Darcy
2. Harry Greb
3. Mike O'Dowd
4. Frank Klaus
5. Jeff Smith
6. George Chip
Should Greb be number 1? I don't know enough about what he did in this period. Darcy is the only champion of this decade anywhere close to greatness so I put him top.
1920s.
1. Harry Greb
2. Mickey Walker
3. Tiger Flowers
4. Johnny Wilson
5. Dave Shade
6. Maxie Rosenbloom
More straightforward. First three are obvious.
1930s.
1. Freddie Steele
2. Mickey Walker
3. Fred Apostoli
4. Marcel Thil
5. Ceferino Garcia
6. Al Hostak
Walker quit the title in 1931, so I don't think he did enough in this decade to rank ahead of Steele.
1940s.
1. Jake LaMotta
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Tony Zale
4. Charley Burley
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Holman Williams
Definitely the best 6 of any decade, and all very closely matched. You could turn the list upside down and I wouldn't argue.
1950s.
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Carl Bobo Olson
3. Randolph Turpin
4. Gene Fullmer
5. Carmen Basilio
6. Jake LaMotta
Fullmer was better in the 60s, Basilio was better at Welter, which is why I put them below Olson and Turpin.
1960s.
1. Dick Tiger
2. Gene Fullmer
3. Nino Benvenutti
4. Joey Giardello
5. Emile Griffith
6. Paul Pender
Again, Griffith was better at Welter.
1970s.
1. Carlos Monzon
2. Rodrigo Valdez
3. Bennie Briscoe
4. Tony Mundine
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Vito Antuofermo
Numbers 2,3 and 4 might have been champions in another era. Hagler only emerged towards the end of the decade.
1980s.
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Michael Nunn
3. Ray Leonard
4. Mustafa Hamsho
5. Sumbu Kalambay
6. Roberto Duran
Big gap between number 1 and the rest. Leonard makes number 3 due to just one victory. Duran is at 6 because he beat Barkley, who beat Hearns, who beat Schuler, and so on.
1990s.
1. Roy Jones
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. James Toney
4. Mike McCallum
5. Gerald McClellan
6. Julian Jackson
Jones only stayed at middle a short time, but he beat numbers 2 and 3 so has to be top.
2000s.
1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Felix Trinidad
3. William Joppy
4. Jermaine Taylor
5. Oscar De La Hoya
6. Keith Holmes
Obvious number 1, as for the rest, who cares?
Greatest middleweights of each decade
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
Nice work.
One question - Tony Mundine as #4 middleweight of the 70's????
That's a bit flattering. In the 5 years he spent at 160 in the 70's he got blasted out every time he stepped into real world class.
OK, he beat a couple of names who were at the end of their careers and a fringe contender in Sterling but he was blown aways by Rodriguez, Briscoe and, of course, Monzon.
Losing to those fellows might be no disgrace but coming up short against Rudy Robles and James Marshall is gonna take some explaining...
One question - Tony Mundine as #4 middleweight of the 70's????
That's a bit flattering. In the 5 years he spent at 160 in the 70's he got blasted out every time he stepped into real world class.
OK, he beat a couple of names who were at the end of their careers and a fringe contender in Sterling but he was blown aways by Rodriguez, Briscoe and, of course, Monzon.
Losing to those fellows might be no disgrace but coming up short against Rudy Robles and James Marshall is gonna take some explaining...
You may be right. I might be giving Mundine too much credit for beating Bunny Sterling, who was one of my favourites. However, he was a factor in the division for several years, and I'm not sure who you could put in instead.Collins2000 wrote:Nice work.
One question - Tony Mundine as #4 middleweight of the 70's????
That's a bit flattering. In the 5 years he spent at 160 in the 70's he got blasted out every time he stepped into real world class.
OK, he beat a couple of names who were at the end of their careers and a fringe contender in Sterling but he was blown aways by Rodriguez, Briscoe and, of course, Monzon.
Losing to those fellows might be no disgrace but coming up short against Rudy Robles and James Marshall is gonna take some explaining...
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Arbachakov
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 380
- Joined: 15 Apr 2006, 12:35
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
I agree to an extent, taverner, regarding who do you put in at #4 for the 70's middles.
No one leaps out at you do they?
I'd move Hagler up one place over Mundine. And also Antuerfermo come to think of it.
So that puts Mundine Snr at #6. Actually, I think, as Arbachakov mentioned, there are maybe a dozen blokes who are about this level (#6). Minter, Tonna, Finnegan and so on.
Interesting that there are so few outstanding 160 pounders in this decade.
No one leaps out at you do they?
I'd move Hagler up one place over Mundine. And also Antuerfermo come to think of it.
So that puts Mundine Snr at #6. Actually, I think, as Arbachakov mentioned, there are maybe a dozen blokes who are about this level (#6). Minter, Tonna, Finnegan and so on.
Interesting that there are so few outstanding 160 pounders in this decade.
Re: Greatest middleweights of each decade
taverner wrote:Being new here, I have been reading some of the old posts. In the thread about greatest heavyweights of the decades it was suggested someone tackle the middleweights next. I can't see that anyone ever did it, so I thought I'd give it a try.
I don't claim to be an expert, so any comments are welcome, especially about the earlier periods.
1900s.
1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Tommy Ryan
3. Jack O'Brien
4. Kid McCoy
5. Billy Papke
6. Jack Sullivan
First two are straightforward, bit of a struggle for the rest. McCoy was probably really a Light-Heavy by now.
1910s
1. Les Darcy
2. Harry Greb
3. Mike O'Dowd
4. Frank Klaus
5. Jeff Smith
6. George Chip
Should Greb be number 1? I don't know enough about what he did in this period. Darcy is the only champion of this decade anywhere close to greatness so I put him top.
1920s.
1. Harry Greb
2. Mickey Walker
3. Tiger Flowers
4. Johnny Wilson
5. Dave Shade
6. Maxie Rosenbloom
More straightforward. First three are obvious.
1930s.
1. Freddie Steele
2. Mickey Walker
3. Fred Apostoli
4. Marcel Thil
5. Ceferino Garcia
6. Al Hostak
Walker quit the title in 1931, so I don't think he did enough in this decade to rank ahead of Steele.
1940s.
1. Jake LaMotta
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Tony Zale
4. Charley Burley
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Holman Williams
Definitely the best 6 of any decade, and all very closely matched. You could turn the list upside down and I wouldn't argue.
1950s.
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Carl Bobo Olson
3. Randolph Turpin
4. Gene Fullmer
5. Carmen Basilio
6. Jake LaMotta
Fullmer was better in the 60s, Basilio was better at Welter, which is why I put them below Olson and Turpin.
1960s.
1. Dick Tiger
2. Gene Fullmer
3. Nino Benvenutti
4. Joey Giardello
5. Emile Griffith
6. Paul Pender
Again, Griffith was better at Welter.
1970s.
1. Carlos Monzon
2. Rodrigo Valdez
3. Bennie Briscoe
4. Tony Mundine
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Vito Antuofermo
Numbers 2,3 and 4 might have been champions in another era. Hagler only emerged towards the end of the decade.
1980s.
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Michael Nunn
3. Ray Leonard
4. Mustafa Hamsho
5. Sumbu Kalambay
6. Roberto Duran
Big gap between number 1 and the rest. Leonard makes number 3 due to just one victory. Duran is at 6 because he beat Barkley, who beat Hearns, who beat Schuler, and so on.
1990s.
1. Roy Jones
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. James Toney
4. Mike McCallum
5. Gerald McClellan
6. Julian Jackson
Jones only stayed at middle a short time, but he beat numbers 2 and 3 so has to be top.
2000s.
1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Felix Trinidad
3. William Joppy
4. Jermaine Taylor
5. Oscar De La Hoya
6. Keith Holmes
Obvious number 1, as for the rest, who cares?
LaMotta was never the best middleweight in the world.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
How about Alan Minter, Kevin Finnegan, Emile Griffith???... all three deserve to be above Mundine.... as do Antuofermo and Hagler...taverner wrote:You may be right. I might be giving Mundine too much credit for beating Bunny Sterling, who was one of my favourites. However, he was a factor in the division for several years, and I'm not sure who you could put in instead.Collins2000 wrote:Nice work.
One question - Tony Mundine as #4 middleweight of the 70's????
That's a bit flattering. In the 5 years he spent at 160 in the 70's he got blasted out every time he stepped into real world class.
OK, he beat a couple of names who were at the end of their careers and a fringe contender in Sterling but he was blown aways by Rodriguez, Briscoe and, of course, Monzon.
Losing to those fellows might be no disgrace but coming up short against Rudy Robles and James Marshall is gonna take some explaining...
Re: Greatest middleweights of each decade
I considered Moore, Marshall and Charles but ultimately thought they didn't do enough as middles to make the list, particularly when there was such strong competition in this decade. If they had been around in the 30s they would probably have made the list. They would all almost certainly make a light-heavy list for the 40s.Decagon wrote:Why LaMotta over Lloyd Marshall, who completely dominated them in their fight, and beat better fighters on average (Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Holmann Williams, Joey Maxim, Jack Chase, Freddie Mills), and why no fornicating Archie Moore?!??!?! I'd rank the decade like this:taverner wrote:1940s.
1. Jake LaMotta
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Tony Zale
4. Charley Burley
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Holman Williams
1. Archie Moore
2. Lloyd Marshall
3. Charley Burley
4. Marcel Cerdan
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Eddie Booker
7. Jake LaMotta
8. Holmann Williams
9. Tony Zale
10. Jack Chase
silkov wrote:How about Alan Minter, Kevin Finnegan, Emile Griffith???... all three deserve to be above Mundine.... as do Antuofermo and Hagler...taverner wrote:I like Bobby Boogaloo Watts in that 70s group somewhere. Some might disagree. He beat Worm Monroe , Cyclone Hart and of course Hagler in the seventies. Nice list though. Took some work IM sure.Collins2000 wrote:Nice work.
One question - Tony Mundine as #4 middleweight of the 70's????
That's a bit flattering. In the 5 years he spent at 160 in the 70's he got blasted out every time he stepped into real world class.
OK, he beat a couple of names who were at the end of their careers and a fringe contender in Sterling but he was blown aways by Rodriguez, Briscoe and, of course, Monzon.
Losing to those fellows might be no disgrace but coming up short against Rudy Robles and James Marshall is gonna take some explaining...
You may be right. I might be giving Mundine too much credit for beating Bunny Sterling, who was one of my favourites. However, he was a factor in the division for several years, and I'm not sure who you could put in instead.
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sockdolager
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1455
- Joined: 17 Jun 2005, 08:57
Robinson didnt fight for the middleweight title until he faught Lomatta in 1951. He did however fight natural Middleweights like Lomatta and Artie Levine in the mid to late 40s. Id rate him as a Welterweight for the 40s because his weight was consistantly closer to 147 than 160. I rate him as the best middleweight in the 1950s.taverner wrote:Wasn't Robinson a welterweight in the 40s?BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
1940s.
1. Jake LaMotta
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Tony Zale
4. Charley Burley
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Holman Williams
1940s
1. sugar ray robinson
2. charley burley
3. jake lamotta
4. marcel cerdan
5. holman williams
6. lloyd marshall
I actually had Minter on my list originally (instead of Antuofermo), but thought perhaps I was being biased to a UK fighter. I think Griffith was past it by the 70s, and I don't think Finnegan (or Tonna, who someone else mentioned) was better than Mundine. I'm still happy with my list.silkov wrote:How about Alan Minter, Kevin Finnegan, Emile Griffith???... all three deserve to be above Mundine.... as do Antuofermo and Hagler...taverner wrote:You may be right. I might be giving Mundine too much credit for beating Bunny Sterling, who was one of my favourites. However, he was a factor in the division for several years, and I'm not sure who you could put in instead.Collins2000 wrote:Nice work.
One question - Tony Mundine as #4 middleweight of the 70's????
That's a bit flattering. In the 5 years he spent at 160 in the 70's he got blasted out every time he stepped into real world class.
OK, he beat a couple of names who were at the end of their careers and a fringe contender in Sterling but he was blown aways by Rodriguez, Briscoe and, of course, Monzon.
Losing to those fellows might be no disgrace but coming up short against Rudy Robles and James Marshall is gonna take some explaining...
Finnegan gave Hagler 2 very close fights in the late 70s and had 3 thrillers with Minter... Griffith was still one of the top middles in the world up to the mid 70s and pushed Monzon hard in two title bouts while Monzon crushed Mundine when they fought....taverner wrote:I actually had Minter on my list originally (instead of Antuofermo), but thought perhaps I was being biased to a UK fighter. I think Griffith was past it by the 70s, and I don't think Finnegan (or Tonna, who someone else mentioned) was better than Mundine. I'm still happy with my list.silkov wrote:How about Alan Minter, Kevin Finnegan, Emile Griffith???... all three deserve to be above Mundine.... as do Antuofermo and Hagler...taverner wrote: You may be right. I might be giving Mundine too much credit for beating Bunny Sterling, who was one of my favourites. However, he was a factor in the division for several years, and I'm not sure who you could put in instead.
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
Good list, Taverner. Of course there are some close calls in some cases which makes it hard.
Tony Mundine was also the one guy that I would certainly take out. Possibly Bobby Watts (as expug suggested) or maybe Hugo Corro should make the list.
Also think that Bobo Olson at #2 for the 1950's is a bit high.
The 1950's were certainly the best decade for middleweights.
Once again, great list.
Tony Mundine was also the one guy that I would certainly take out. Possibly Bobby Watts (as expug suggested) or maybe Hugo Corro should make the list.
Also think that Bobo Olson at #2 for the 1950's is a bit high.
The 1950's were certainly the best decade for middleweights.
Once again, great list.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4900
- Joined: 29 May 2005, 00:32
Re: Greatest middleweights of each decade
Decagon wrote:Why LaMotta over Lloyd Marshall, who completely dominated them in their fight, and beat better fighters on average (Ezzard Charles, Charley Burley, Holmann Williams, Joey Maxim, Jack Chase, Freddie Mills), and why no fornicating Archie Moore?!??!?! I'd rank the decade like this:taverner wrote:1940s.
1. Jake LaMotta
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Tony Zale
4. Charley Burley
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Holman Williams
1. Archie Moore
2. Lloyd Marshall
3. Charley Burley
4. Marcel Cerdan
5. Ezzard Charles
6. Eddie Booker
7. Jake LaMotta
8. Holmann Williams
9. Tony Zale
10. Jack Chase
archie moore # 1 at 160lb? WTF ARE U SMOKING!
* archie was not the fighter at 160lb he was at 175lb.
archie was completley dominated and shutout by charley burley at 160lb. eddie booker knocked out archie at 160lb and was robbed in there draw, aaron tiger wade beat moore at 160lb, old holman williams beat moore, jack chase beat archie, shorty hogue beat moore 3 fuckin times.........
by the time moore beat holman williams and marshall, both were past there prime.
NO WAY MOORE WAS THE BEST 160LB IN THE 1940S NO WAY! charley burley proved in there fight he was the much better 160lb
* though u disagree with me, moore had not yet reached his peak when he was a middleweight. he was a better fighter in the late 1940s-mid 50s
charley burley, ezzard charles, holman williams, eddie booker were better middleweights than moore
lamotta and cerdan would have killed a 160lb version of moore
- moore was a very good middleweight, but # 1 of the decade is a joke. he was not a great middleweight. he was a far better 175lb
BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
1940s.
1. Jake LaMotta
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Tony Zale
4. Charley Burley
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Holman Williams
1940s
1. sugar ray robinson
2. charley burley
3. jake lamotta
4. marcel cerdan
5. holman williams
6. lloyd marshall
Marcel Cerdan
Lloyd Marshall
Charley Burley
Tony Zale
Jake LaMotta(maybe)
Finnegan had 3 thrillers with Minter, but lost all 3. Maybe I'm unfair on Griffith - he was so good in the 60s that perhaps he was just comparatively not as good in the 70s - although Mundine did beat him!silkov wrote: Finnegan gave Hagler 2 very close fights in the late 70s and had 3 thrillers with Minter... Griffith was still one of the top middles in the world up to the mid 70s and pushed Monzon hard in two title bouts while Monzon crushed Mundine when they fought....
Having said all that, it does seems clear from all the posts that I have over estimated Mundine, and maybe Minter should be in instead.