Are you willing to admit that most top boxers are on PEDs?

[Dixonian]

I'm curious about Usain Bolt however as I can't recall much suspicion during his career and rumours usually abound when someone performs like he did

You and others may find this interesting reading then:

While it's an interesting read there are no great revelations here. And some of the reasoning behind his arguments are pretty tenuous. I mean to make the point he was a gifted sprinter as a youngster is somehow part of the proof of his possible guilt is just bizarre. So if he hadn't have shown talent as a youngster what would that mean?

In relation to being gifted, the author clearly states that it is "a precursor rather than an indicator" so I'm not clear why you're so confused.

Far more importantly, he summarizes and contextualizes a lot of disparate information to create a very compelling case.

I find it more interesting that someone who is aware of the fact that sprinting is notoriously full of drugs cheats (Bolt is the only one of the athletes who have recorded the top 20 times ever that hasn't failed a test), who trained with a team that was full of drugs cheats in a country that didn't test its athletes properly, can somehow still believe he is likely to be clean,. Add in facts such as 'in less that 12 months between 2007 and 2008, Bolt moved from a promising sprinter, to the fastest man alive" and the odds of him being clean diminish even further.
To be clear, either way Bolt is still an exceptional athlete, but you really would have to be close to a 'flat Earther' to believe that he was clean when literally everyone around him was using performance enhancing drugs yet he was still outperforming all of them by such a margin.

So why mention it? What relevance does it have to his case? As I asked you before: what if he hadn't been gifted and then gone on to become the world's best - would that distance him from the Lance comparison?

Like I've said in the Jesse Owens comparison, Bolt's times - considering his physique and the advancement of diet, nutrition and training know-how - are really not superhuman.

With regards to the sudden improvement, that could come down to a number of things. The clearing of niggling injuries providing a rare opportunity to train at maximum over a period of time; increased dedication; different training methods etc. I've knocked shitloads off my PB's over a short period of time as a result of doing these things (at a much lower level obviously).

My main argument is that naiveity works both ways...

[Deserter]

So why mention it? What relevance does it have to his case? As I asked you before: what if he hadn't been gifted and then gone on to become the world's best - would that distance him from the Lance comparison?

Like I've said in the Jesse Owens comparison, Bolt's times - considering his physique and the advancement of diet, nutrition and training know-how - are really not superhuman.

With regards to the sudden improvement, that could come down to a number of things. The clearing of niggling injuries providing a rare opportunity to train at maximum over a period of time; increased dedication; different training methods etc. I've knocked shitloads off my PB's over a short period of time as a result of doing these things (at a much lower level obviously).

My main argument is that naiveity works both ways...

I clearly need to break it down for you again, despite it being very clear to everyone else on this thread:

1) The relevance is that the author is clearly addressing the frequent misconception that because an athlete was a prodigy, this can explain their exceptional performance as an adult i.e. the belief that "athlete x isn't on drugs as they've always been exceptional since they were a kid". He's tackling a myth head-on to get it out of the way before getting into the detail.

2) With your reference to Owens you are willfully missing the point, which is that by far the more relevant data set is the performances of those athletes around him with access to the same training camps, same nutrition, same track conditions etc. He did nothing radically different from them regarding all those variables and they were all using performance-enhancing drugs, yet he still achieved radically better times than them. Please try to grasp the fact that the percentage chance of him being able to do this while being clean is infinitesimal.

3) I think it's fair to say that those involved in professional athletics across the globe will be LOL'ing at your naivety in thinking that 'increased dedication' and being free from 'niggling injuries' could in isolation somehow have allowed him to go from promising sprinter to fastest man alive in less than a year. You don't seem to realize how incredibly difficult it is to achieve any marginal increase in performance at elite level. Your reference to your own PB's as being relevant to performances on this level just reinforces the perception that you're very naive.

As for your main argument, you haven't actually got one.

[Bard of Boxrec]

For me the most interesting thing is , surely there should be more talk/hints from retired athletes about what goes on, even in vague terms, or at least more interviewers digging for stuff .

[Deserter]

For me the most interesting thing is , surely there should be more talk/hints from retired athletes about what goes on, even in vague terms, or at least more interviewers digging for stuff .

I think there are a number of things at play that affect that fella:
1) Threat of legal action - clearly the most powerful deterrent, especially when the stars have access to far stronger legal teams than those who are retired etc.
2) The 'omerta' among many professional sportsmen, cycling being a prime example - the 'civvies' don't understand what we do' mentality etc.
3) There's a similar 'social contract' between the press pack and the athletes - for example, David Walsh of The Sunday Times was one of the few brave enough to raise concerns and investigate Armstrong, but you can see from this article how he had to handle everything from legal threats through to being shunned by other members of the cycling media (even though they all had the same suspicions!):
https://www.theguardian.com/media/green ... undaytimes

I've worked with a number of journalists from national papers in the UK and there's a similar level of silence over certain celebrities e..g. those who are gay in their private life, but the tabloids cover their hetrosexual 'relationship' as if it's genuine as it suits everyone in on the game - right for the celeb's profile, shifts copy sales on an ongoing basis etc. Exposing them would lead to one big 'splash', but would ruin the relationship with the star and their publicity team, so the paper would be cut off from future 'exclusives' etc, so it just doesn't make sense for them.
Imagine if one of the biggest stars in football was gay and The Sun ran a front page exclusive on it. After that one-off 'bombshell', the paper would have all access blocked to that star and probably to any other star represented by the same publicity/PR firm, so the damage far outweighs the benefit.

[jameswilson]

For me the most interesting thing is , surely there should be more talk/hints from retired athletes about what goes on, even in vague terms, or at least more interviewers digging for stuff .

Ken Shamrock dug at Brock Lesnar a little while back.


While we’re on the subject Connor Benn’s been out for a while hasn’t he? Let me guess? An injury? Yeah ok.

[Onetimeonly]

For me the most interesting thing is , surely there should be more talk/hints from retired athletes about what goes on, even in vague terms, or at least more interviewers digging for stuff .

Ken Shamrock dug at Brock Lesnar a little while back.


While we’re on the subject Connor Benn’s been out for a while hasn’t he? Let me guess? An injury? Yeah ok.

Shamrock? They've both tested positive.

[Counter-puncher]

At world level almost without question, and same for e.g. the UFC and most top spots.

Many will be on Clenbuterol/Winstrol especially.

Maybe 30 years ago. Epo and hgh are probably the top along with some not yet named.

i was thinking about this, i know we've discussed before that EPO would be my go-to as a dirty boxer

it does beg the question though- how come so many boxers seem to struggle with stamina for a 12 round fight? i wonder if it's an erosion of skills outweighing any gains from PED's, not being able to relax and be fluid in the ring/etc.

[kbackup408]

I reckon those darts lads are taking beta blockers too, can't imagine they are getting blood and urine tested !

[jtourettes]

So true mate. When I was working in the UK just over a decade ago one of my roles was publisher of some cycling magazines and it's safe to say that everyone in that world knew he was on the gear and laughed at the 'casuals' who were either naive to it or in some cases even defended him against accusations.

It's sad when people can't have a word said against their heroes that may tarnish them somehow. Also see, the legions of idiots sticking up for Jacko.

[bripez]

At world level almost without question, and same for e.g. the UFC and most top spots.

Many will be on Clenbuterol/Winstrol especially.

Maybe 30 years ago. Epo and hgh are probably the top along with some not yet named.

i was thinking about this, i know we've discussed before that EPO would be my go-to as a dirty boxer

it does beg the question though- how come so many boxers seem to struggle with stamina for a 12 round fight? i wonder if it's an erosion of skills outweighing any gains from PED's, not being able to relax and be fluid in the ring/etc.

I reckon it is linked to weight making (and they may use diuretics for that) - when you see some boxers at weigh-ins they don't have an ounce on them, cannot be good for their health never mind a 12 round gruelling fight

[Onetimeonly]

At world level almost without question, and same for e.g. the UFC and most top spots.

Many will be on Clenbuterol/Winstrol especially.

Maybe 30 years ago. Epo and hgh are probably the top along with some not yet named.

i was thinking about this, i know we've discussed before that EPO would be my go-to as a dirty boxer

it does beg the question though- how come so many boxers seem to struggle with stamina for a 12 round fight? i wonder if it's an erosion of skills outweighing any gains from PED's, not being able to relax and be fluid in the ring/etc.

I imagine many can't afford the top gear. You make a fine point about composure and frankly it will 9nly take you as far as your effort. Manny is the poster child, poor cotto.

[Counter-puncher]

At world level almost without question, and same for e.g. the UFC and most top spots.

Many will be on Clenbuterol/Winstrol especially.

Maybe 30 years ago. Epo and hgh are probably the top along with some not yet named.

i was thinking about this, i know we've discussed before that EPO would be my go-to as a dirty boxer

it does beg the question though- how come so many boxers seem to struggle with stamina for a 12 round fight? i wonder if it's an erosion of skills outweighing any gains from PED's, not being able to relax and be fluid in the ring/etc.

I reckon it is linked to weight making (and they may use diuretics for that) - when you see some boxers at weigh-ins they don't have an ounce on them, cannot be good for their health never mind a 12 round gruelling fight

mmm definitely true as well.

also i guess if boxers are 'just' cheating by way of PED's that build muscle (and not with EPO), i would imagine from a non-scientist's viewpoint that can't neccessarily help stamina, IE those big oxygen-drinking muscles?

[Counter-puncher]

At world level almost without question, and same for e.g. the UFC and most top spots.

Many will be on Clenbuterol/Winstrol especially.

Maybe 30 years ago. Epo and hgh are probably the top along with some not yet named.

i was thinking about this, i know we've discussed before that EPO would be my go-to as a dirty boxer

it does beg the question though- how come so many boxers seem to struggle with stamina for a 12 round fight? i wonder if it's an erosion of skills outweighing any gains from PED's, not being able to relax and be fluid in the ring/etc.

I imagine many can't afford the top gear. You make a fine point about composure and frankly it will 9nly take you as far as your effort. Manny is the poster child, poor cotto.

Heavyweights threw more punches even 30 years ago than welterweights do now.

always worth mentioning when people talk about how modern science and blah blah blah means modern boxers must be better than guys from the 70s and before

[Onetimeonly]

At world level almost without question, and same for e.g. the UFC and most top spots.

Many will be on Clenbuterol/Winstrol especially.

Maybe 30 years ago. Epo and hgh are probably the top along with some not yet named.

i was thinking about this, i know we've discussed before that EPO would be my go-to as a dirty boxer

it does beg the question though- how come so many boxers seem to struggle with stamina for a 12 round fight? i wonder if it's an erosion of skills outweighing any gains from PED's, not being able to relax and be fluid in the ring/etc.

I imagine many can't afford the top gear. You make a fine point about composure and frankly it will 9nly take you as far as your effort. Manny is the poster child, poor cotto.

Heavyweights threw more punches even 30 years ago than welterweights do now.

always worth mentioning when people talk about how modern science and blah blah blah means modern boxers must be better than guys from the 70s and before

No shit, Vargas/miura was tame compared to bowe/holyfield.

[bripez]

So true mate. When I was working in the UK just over a decade ago one of my roles was publisher of some cycling magazines and it's safe to say that everyone in that world knew he was on the gear and laughed at the 'casuals' who were either naive to it or in some cases even defended him against accusations.

It's sad when people can't have a word said against their heroes that may tarnish them somehow. Also see, the legions of idiots sticking up for Jacko.

If I want to start a row with my missus I just start a conversation about Jacko or Barrymore, works every time.

[stujones]

I did watch last night's Albert hall bill and thought how many on this left hand side of the card have assistance.