Greatest middleweights of each decade

[taverner]

moore was a very good middleweight, but # 1 of the decade is a joke. he was not a great middleweight. he was a far better 175lb

That's exactly how I see it.

This highlights one problem with doing these rankings that I didn't anticipate when I started out, that is knowing exactly how good a fighter was at a certain weight at a certain time. We all know how good Moore was, but I'm not certain how good he was as a middle in the 1940s. I haven't seen any of his fights from that era so I had to go on his record. To me, this doesn't suggest he deserves a top 6 ranking on a 1940s middleweight list, even though he is overall a better fighter than all those who did make the cut.

Similarly I didn't rate Robinson, who another poster suggested should be top, as he didn't really achieve anything as a middleweight in the period.

[taverner]

Good list, Taverner. Of course there are some close calls in some cases which makes it hard.

Tony Mundine was also the one guy that I would certainly take out. Possibly Bobby Watts (as expug suggested) or maybe Hugo Corro should make the list.

Also think that Bobo Olson at #2 for the 1950's is a bit high.

The 1950's were certainly the best decade for middleweights.
Once again, great list.

Thanks.

As you see above, I am becoming convinced about Mundine.

[Les Darcy]

I think Dave Sands should be included in the 1950s list, he twice beat Bobo Olsen and was ducked by Randy Turpin. Good to see you have Darcy #1 in the 1920s though.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

1940s.
1. Jake LaMotta
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Tony Zale
4. Charley Burley
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Holman Williams

1940s


1. sugar ray robinson
2. charley burley
3. jake lamotta
4. marcel cerdan
5. holman williams
6. lloyd marshall

Marcel Cerdan
Lloyd Marshall
Charley Burley
Tony Zale
Jake LaMotta(maybe)

jake la motta was far better than tony zale.


* lamotta was better than cerdan too!

[jimglen]

Brockton, I'm Italian too, and mostly North American (in years), but you are so far off the mark with LaMotta it's no longer acceptable to listen too!

LaMotta was NOT a KO puncher, nor a stylish classy boxer (though a better boxer than some realise), he was one of those champions who took far more punishment than a champion is suppose too!

It was only because of his amazing "durability" & strength that he won the day in the end and many people say he could have fought a few more 'notable' contenders. He was also suppose to be 'heavier' (naturally) than a lot of the MW's and his status has been substancially revived through the movie...

Is he a boxing legend? Yes!
Is he an all-time great? Yes!
Is he a top 10 all-time great MW? Yes/No depends on the "historian" or researcher!

Was he better than Cerdan? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Cerdan beats Jake EVERYTIME!!!

[Collins2000]

Brockton, I'm Italian too, and mostly North American (in years), but you are so far off the mark with LaMotta it's no longer acceptable to listen too!

LaMotta was NOT a KO puncher, nor a stylish classy boxer (though a better boxer than some realise), he was one of those champions who took far more punishment than a champion is suppose too!

It was only because of his amazing "durability" & strength that he won the day in the end and many people say he could have fought a few more 'notable' contenders. He was also suppose to be 'heavier' (naturally) than a lot of the MW's and his status has been substancially revived through the movie...

Is he a boxing legend? Yes!
Is he an all-time great? Yes!
Is he a top 10 all-time great MW? Yes/No depends on the "historian" or researcher!

Was he better than Cerdan? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Cerdan beats Jake EVERYTIME!!!

Hahahahaha, apart from the one time they did actually met, eh, jimbo?



I thought your stories about the inter-war brit fighters being unbeatable were funny; You are going for gold now

[surf-bat]

Brockton, I'm Italian too, and mostly North American (in years), but you are so far off the mark with LaMotta it's no longer acceptable to listen too!

LaMotta was NOT a KO puncher, nor a stylish classy boxer (though a better boxer than some realise), he was one of those champions who took far more punishment than a champion is suppose too!

It was only because of his amazing "durability" & strength that he won the day in the end and many people say he could have fought a few more 'notable' contenders. He was also suppose to be 'heavier' (naturally) than a lot of the MW's and his status has been substancially revived through the movie...

Is he a boxing legend? Yes!
Is he an all-time great? Yes!
Is he a top 10 all-time great MW? Yes/No depends on the "historian" or researcher!

Was he better than Cerdan? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Cerdan beats Jake EVERYTIME!!!

Hahahahaha, apart from the one time they did actually met, eh, jimbo?



I thought your stories about the inter-war brit fighters being unbeatable were funny; You are going for gold now

I thin he meant a HEALTHY Cerdan with TWO USABLE ARMS.

THAT Cerdan beats LaMotta every time

[surf-bat]

1940s


1. sugar ray robinson
2. charley burley
3. jake lamotta
4. marcel cerdan
5. holman williams
6. lloyd marshall

Marcel Cerdan
Lloyd Marshall
Charley Burley
Tony Zale
Jake LaMotta(maybe)

jake la motta was far better than tony zale.


* lamotta was better than cerdan too!

Nope. Zale has him. So does Marcel.

[surf-bat]

Brockton, I'm Italian too, and mostly North American (in years), but you are so far off the mark with LaMotta it's no longer acceptable to listen too!

LaMotta was NOT a KO puncher, nor a stylish classy boxer (though a better boxer than some realise), he was one of those champions who took far more punishment than a champion is suppose too!

It was only because of his amazing "durability" & strength that he won the day in the end and many people say he could have fought a few more 'notable' contenders. He was also suppose to be 'heavier' (naturally) than a lot of the MW's and his status has been substancially revived through the movie...

Is he a boxing legend? Yes!
Is he an all-time great? Yes!
Is he a top 10 all-time great MW? Yes/No depends on the "historian" or researcher!

Was he better than Cerdan? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Cerdan beats Jake EVERYTIME!!!

Heck, Cerdan almost beat Jake with one arm. Imagine what he could do with two!
Jake was a bum. The Cerdan fight proved it.

[Arbachakov]

Cerdan was really a Welterweight.It's difficult to imagine he would have the beating of lamotta every time when the superior Robinson was run so close in most of their fights.

With some of the hyperbole here you would think Cerdan was light years better than Robinson.

It's likely that if Cerdan and Lamotta engaged in a series of fights that they would all be gruelling and highly competitive.

[Collins2000]

Cerdan was really a Welterweight.It's difficult to imagine he would have the beating of lamotta every time when the superior Robinson was run so close in most of their fights.

With some of the hyperbole here you would think Cerdan was light years better than Robinson.

It's likely that if Cerdan and Lamotta engaged in a series of fights that they would all be gruelling and highly competitive.

Not in here, Arbachakov. This is the twilight zone of boxing. Long held opinions have become fact to many of these punters.

Marcel Cerdan is just the latest to be have undergone a semi-religious transformation from decent champ to immortal and unbeatable divinity.

Hey, and it's not just well-known fighters who get this elevation. Check out some of those posts about the inter-war brit boxers and how, if they'd been given a shot at the US fighters, the record books would look so different. Fantasy, of course, but these fellows believe it.

Then, of course, we come to Klondike. Surely you know of him? Reputed to have been, according to our resident self-proclaimed boxing historian, a better heavyweight than George Foreman and Larry Holmes.

My old dad always use to say that the best comedians were those who keep a straight face when delivering their lines. I often think of that as I chuckle at some of the posts in here.

[silkov]

Cerdan was really a Welterweight.It's difficult to imagine he would have the beating of lamotta every time when the superior Robinson was run so close in most of their fights.

With some of the hyperbole here you would think Cerdan was light years better than Robinson.

It's likely that if Cerdan and Lamotta engaged in a series of fights that they would all be gruelling and highly competitive.

Not in here, Arbachakov. This is the twilight zone of boxing. Long held opinions have become fact to many of these punters.

Marcel Cerdan is just the latest to be have undergone a semi-religious transformation from decent champ to immortal and unbeatable divinity.

Hey, and it's not just well-known fighters who get this elevation. Check out one some of those posts about the inter-war brit boxers and how, if they'd been given a shot at the US fighters, the record books would look so different. Fantasy, of course, but these fellows believe it.

Then, of course, we come to Klondike. Surely you know of him? Reputed to have been, according to our resident self-proclaimed boxing historian, a better heavyweight than George Foreman and Larry Holmes.

My old dad always use to say that the best comedians were those who keep a straight face when delivering their lines. I often think of that as I chuckle at some of the posts in here.

Maybe we should rename this forum 'Saturday night live' ...theres certainly enougth jokers here for it!...

[silkov]

Lamotta gave Cedan a hiding, Jake almost koed Cedan in the first round and Cedan hurt his shoulder after he was pushed away while trying to grab Jake. Its amusing to point out that while the Cedan followers here love to point out that Marcel injured his shoulder, it is completely ignored that Jake broke his left hand in the second round!.
Lamotta was a far better champ than many here want to admit... certainly better than Cedan... who by the way won the title from a battle worn Zale who would have beaten him a year or so before....
I've nothing against Cedan but just stating some fact here...

[Lausse]

In terms of overall ability Marcel Cerdan was superior to Jake,and I do think he is a great fighter,at welter that is.But no matter how good he was,no former welterweight who comes directly to LaMotta looking to fight in close quarters is gonna walk away with a win.

They didn`t call him the Bronx Bull for no reason,although not a hard puncher he was very,very strong physically and was really a lightheavyweight in a middleweights body.The way to beat Jake was to box him and try and keep him at range,not to come right to him looking for a punch out.

Cerdan was an aggressive pressure fighter who always came forward,and was the naturally smaller man,and Jake would have manhandled him on the inside everytime.I like Cerdan and he certainly looks impressive on film,but as they say styles make fights and this is one stylistic matchup that does not bode well for Marcel.

A peak LaMotta would always beat Cerdan in my opinion,but to Marcel`s credit his fighting spirit and pride would guarantee that Jake would have had a real fight on his hands each time out.

[Lausse]

Being new here, I have been reading some of the old posts. In the thread about greatest heavyweights of the decades it was suggested someone tackle the middleweights next. I can't see that anyone ever did it, so I thought I'd give it a try.

I don't claim to be an expert, so any comments are welcome, especially about the earlier periods.

1900s.
1. Stanley Ketchel
2. Tommy Ryan
3. Jack O'Brien
4. Kid McCoy
5. Billy Papke
6. Jack Sullivan

First two are straightforward, bit of a struggle for the rest. McCoy was probably really a Light-Heavy by now.

1910s
1. Les Darcy
2. Harry Greb
3. Mike O'Dowd
4. Frank Klaus
5. Jeff Smith
6. George Chip

Should Greb be number 1? I don't know enough about what he did in this period. Darcy is the only champion of this decade anywhere close to greatness so I put him top.

1920s.
1. Harry Greb
2. Mickey Walker
3. Tiger Flowers
4. Johnny Wilson
5. Dave Shade
6. Maxie Rosenbloom

More straightforward. First three are obvious.

1930s.
1. Freddie Steele
2. Mickey Walker
3. Fred Apostoli
4. Marcel Thil
5. Ceferino Garcia
6. Al Hostak

Walker quit the title in 1931, so I don't think he did enough in this decade to rank ahead of Steele.

1940s.
1. Jake LaMotta
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Tony Zale
4. Charley Burley
5. Rocky Graziano
6. Holman Williams

Definitely the best 6 of any decade, and all very closely matched. You could turn the list upside down and I wouldn't argue.

1950s.
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Carl Bobo Olson
3. Randolph Turpin
4. Gene Fullmer
5. Carmen Basilio
6. Jake LaMotta

Fullmer was better in the 60s, Basilio was better at Welter, which is why I put them below Olson and Turpin.

1960s.
1. Dick Tiger
2. Gene Fullmer
3. Nino Benvenutti
4. Joey Giardello
5. Emile Griffith
6. Paul Pender

Again, Griffith was better at Welter.

1970s.
1. Carlos Monzon
2. Rodrigo Valdez
3. Bennie Briscoe
4. Tony Mundine
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Vito Antuofermo

Numbers 2,3 and 4 might have been champions in another era. Hagler only emerged towards the end of the decade.

1980s.
1. Marvin Hagler
2. Michael Nunn
3. Ray Leonard
4. Mustafa Hamsho
5. Sumbu Kalambay
6. Roberto Duran

Big gap between number 1 and the rest. Leonard makes number 3 due to just one victory. Duran is at 6 because he beat Barkley, who beat Hearns, who beat Schuler, and so on.

1990s.
1. Roy Jones
2. Bernard Hopkins
3. James Toney
4. Mike McCallum
5. Gerald McClellan
6. Julian Jackson

Jones only stayed at middle a short time, but he beat numbers 2 and 3 so has to be top.

2000s.
1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Felix Trinidad
3. William Joppy
4. Jermaine Taylor
5. Oscar De La Hoya
6. Keith Holmes

Obvious number 1, as for the rest, who cares?

That`s a very good and well researched list.I disagree with a few picks here and there,but overall that is quite an impressive list,good job.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Brockton, I'm Italian too, and mostly North American (in years), but you are so far off the mark with LaMotta it's no longer acceptable to listen too!

LaMotta was NOT a KO puncher, nor a stylish classy boxer (though a better boxer than some realise), he was one of those champions who took far more punishment than a champion is suppose too!

It was only because of his amazing "durability" & strength that he won the day in the end and many people say he could have fought a few more 'notable' contenders. He was also suppose to be 'heavier' (naturally) than a lot of the MW's and his status has been substancially revived through the movie...

Is he a boxing legend? Yes!
Is he an all-time great? Yes!
Is he a top 10 all-time great MW? Yes/No depends on the "historian" or researcher!

Was he better than Cerdan? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Cerdan beats Jake EVERYTIME!!!

Heck, Cerdan almost beat Jake with one arm. Imagine what he could do with two!
Jake was a bum. The Cerdan fight proved it.

almost beat him? ha! lamotta beat the shit out of cerdan every round. it wasnt close.


jake a bum? no ur the bum and this post proves it



* jake lamotta was far better than tony "overated" zale who avoided all the black contenders of that era


i might add i have never seen a middleweight champion with a more padded record than marcel cerdan!

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

In terms of overall ability Marcel Cerdan was superior to Jake,and I do think he is a great fighter,at welter that is.But no matter how good he was,no former welterweight who comes directly to LaMotta looking to fight in close quarters is gonna walk away with a win.

They didn`t call him the Bronx Bull for no reason,although not a hard puncher he was very,very strong physically and was really a lightheavyweight in a middleweights body.The way to beat Jake was to box him and try and keep him at range,not to come right to him looking for a punch out.

Cerdan was an aggressive pressure fighter who always came forward,and was the naturally smaller man,and Jake would have manhandled him on the inside everytime.I like Cerdan and he certainly looks impressive on film,but as they say styles make fights and this is one stylistic matchup that does not bode well for Marcel.

A peak LaMotta would always beat Cerdan in my opinion,but to Marcel`s credit his fighting spirit and pride would guarantee that Jake would have had a real fight on his hands each time out.

i agree solid post!

[surf-bat]

Cerdan was really a Welterweight.It's difficult to imagine he would have the beating of lamotta every time when the superior Robinson was run so close in most of their fights.

With some of the hyperbole here you would think Cerdan was light years better than Robinson.

It's likely that if Cerdan and Lamotta engaged in a series of fights that they would all be gruelling and highly competitive.

Not in here, Arbachakov. This is the twilight zone of boxing. Long held opinions have become fact to many of these punters.

Marcel Cerdan is just the latest to be have undergone a semi-religious transformation from decent champ to immortal and unbeatable divinity.

Hey, and it's not just well-known fighters who get this elevation. Check out some of those posts about the inter-war brit boxers and how, if they'd been given a shot at the US fighters, the record books would look so different. Fantasy, of course, but these fellows believe it.

Then, of course, we come to Klondike. Surely you know of him? Reputed to have been, according to our resident self-proclaimed boxing historian, a better heavyweight than George Foreman and Larry Holmes.

My old dad always use to say that the best comedians were those who keep a straight face when delivering their lines. I often think of that as I chuckle at some of the posts in here.

Actually, your semi-religious transformation quote applies to LaMotta far more than Cerdan. And proves how little you know about how Marcel was regarded in his day.

"Decent champ"? *LOL* Now THAT should give you a chuckle after you do your homework.

Ike Williams- a Cerdan contemporary- thought that Marcel would have beaten Robinson at his best.

Ezzard Charles- another Marcel contemporary- called him "The greatest fighter I've ever seen".

Chuckle away....

[surf-bat]

Lamotta gave Cedan a hiding, Jake almost koed Cedan in the first round and Cedan hurt his shoulder after he was pushed away while trying to grab Jake. Its amusing to point out that while the Cedan followers here love to point out that Marcel injured his shoulder, it is completely ignored that Jake broke his left hand in the second round!.
Lamotta was a far better champ than many here want to admit... certainly better than Cedan... who by the way won the title from a battle worn Zale who would have beaten him a year or so before....
I've nothing against Cedan but just stating some fact here...

No dear, Jake didn't break his hand in the second round. It's "ignored" cuz it never happened. Watch the films.

Jake did not almost KO Cerdan in the first round either. Watch the films.

All you are doing is regurgitating discredited myths perpetuated by LaMotta-loonies, many of whom haunt these boards. You might wanna do some research and arm yourself with some "facts" before you state them.

[surf-bat]

In terms of overall ability Marcel Cerdan was superior to Jake,and I do think he is a great fighter,at welter that is.But no matter how good he was,no former welterweight who comes directly to LaMotta looking to fight in close quarters is gonna walk away with a win.

They didn`t call him the Bronx Bull for no reason,although not a hard puncher he was very,very strong physically and was really a lightheavyweight in a middleweights body.The way to beat Jake was to box him and try and keep him at range,not to come right to him looking for a punch out.

Cerdan was an aggressive pressure fighter who always came forward,and was the naturally smaller man,and Jake would have manhandled him on the inside everytime.I like Cerdan and he certainly looks impressive on film,but as they say styles make fights and this is one stylistic matchup that does not bode well for Marcel.

A peak LaMotta would always beat Cerdan in my opinion,but to Marcel`s credit his fighting spirit and pride would guarantee that Jake would have had a real fight on his hands each time out.

Fritzie Zivic, a Welterweight, came right at Jake, slugged with him and beat him(and lost controversially). Then laughed at his punching power.

[surf-bat]

Brockton, I'm Italian too, and mostly North American (in years), but you are so far off the mark with LaMotta it's no longer acceptable to listen too!

LaMotta was NOT a KO puncher, nor a stylish classy boxer (though a better boxer than some realise), he was one of those champions who took far more punishment than a champion is suppose too!

It was only because of his amazing "durability" & strength that he won the day in the end and many people say he could have fought a few more 'notable' contenders. He was also suppose to be 'heavier' (naturally) than a lot of the MW's and his status has been substancially revived through the movie...

Is he a boxing legend? Yes!
Is he an all-time great? Yes!
Is he a top 10 all-time great MW? Yes/No depends on the "historian" or researcher!

Was he better than Cerdan? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
Cerdan beats Jake EVERYTIME!!!

Heck, Cerdan almost beat Jake with one arm. Imagine what he could do with two!
Jake was a bum. The Cerdan fight proved it.

almost beat him? ha! lamotta beat the shit out of cerdan every round. it wasnt close.


jake a bum? no ur the bum and this post proves it



* jake lamotta was far better than tony "overated" zale who avoided all the black contenders of that era


i might add i have never seen a middleweight champion with a more padded record than marcel cerdan!

Actually, the Matchmaker for MSG at the time gave Cerdan several rounds. So much for your "not even close" theory.

If you did half as much honest research on LaMotta as you've done on Marciano we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Your defending of him is understandable(your a fan), but, in this case, sad. Like bailing out the titanic with a dixie cup. I've discredited all of your little sources thoroughly. You're reduced to name-calling("your a bum"). Sad, but it shows I've made my point.

Zale was better than Jake and would have beaten him soundly.

Oh and BTW, beating top contenders like Georgie Abrams, Anton Raadik, Harold Green, Holman Williams(old, but still formidable) and Lavern Roach is not what I would call having a "padded" record.

[surf-bat]

In terms of overall ability Marcel Cerdan was superior to Jake,and I do think he is a great fighter,at welter that is.But no matter how good he was,no former welterweight who comes directly to LaMotta looking to fight in close quarters is gonna walk away with a win.

They didn`t call him the Bronx Bull for no reason,although not a hard puncher he was very,very strong physically and was really a lightheavyweight in a middleweights body.The way to beat Jake was to box him and try and keep him at range,not to come right to him looking for a punch out.

Cerdan was an aggressive pressure fighter who always came forward,and was the naturally smaller man,and Jake would have manhandled him on the inside everytime.I like Cerdan and he certainly looks impressive on film,but as they say styles make fights and this is one stylistic matchup that does not bode well for Marcel.

A peak LaMotta would always beat Cerdan in my opinion,but to Marcel`s credit his fighting spirit and pride would guarantee that Jake would have had a real fight on his hands each time out.

i agree solid post!

Ooh, there's a shocker! He agrees!

But the truth is stubborn and won't go away. Maybe someone, somewhere will provide you with the evidence you so desire that will neutralize all the mountains of evidence I've thrown at you, destroying your cherished beliefs about the LaMotta/Cerdan fight.

Until that day comes, keep grasping those frayed threads of hope.

[surf-bat]

oops, now that I think of it, take Jake off the list entirely and put Eddie Booker in there.

[silkov]

Lamotta gave Cedan a hiding, Jake almost koed Cedan in the first round and Cedan hurt his shoulder after he was pushed away while trying to grab Jake. Its amusing to point out that while the Cedan followers here love to point out that Marcel injured his shoulder, it is completely ignored that Jake broke his left hand in the second round!.
Lamotta was a far better champ than many here want to admit... certainly better than Cedan... who by the way won the title from a battle worn Zale who would have beaten him a year or so before....
I've nothing against Cedan but just stating some fact here...

No dear, Jake didn't break his hand in the second round. It's "ignored" cuz it never happened. Watch the films.

Jake did not almost KO Cerdan in the first round either. Watch the films.

All you are doing is regurgitating discredited myths perpetuated by LaMotta-loonies, many of whom haunt these boards. You might wanna do some research and arm yourself with some "facts" before you state them.

Try the NewYork Times buddy, their reporter saw Jakes hand after the fight, the hand was broken fact, but Jake still pasted Cedan all night fact!... you wouldn't know a fact if you married one!.... and yes I have the films as well...

[surf-bat]

Lamotta gave Cedan a hiding, Jake almost koed Cedan in the first round and Cedan hurt his shoulder after he was pushed away while trying to grab Jake. Its amusing to point out that while the Cedan followers here love to point out that Marcel injured his shoulder, it is completely ignored that Jake broke his left hand in the second round!.
Lamotta was a far better champ than many here want to admit... certainly better than Cedan... who by the way won the title from a battle worn Zale who would have beaten him a year or so before....
I've nothing against Cedan but just stating some fact here...

No dear, Jake didn't break his hand in the second round. It's "ignored" cuz it never happened. Watch the films.

Jake did not almost KO Cerdan in the first round either. Watch the films.

All you are doing is regurgitating discredited myths perpetuated by LaMotta-loonies, many of whom haunt these boards. You might wanna do some research and arm yourself with some "facts" before you state them.

Try the NewYork Times buddy, their reporter saw Jakes hand after the fight, the hand was broken fact, but Jake still pasted Cedan all night fact!... you wouldn't know a fact if you married one!.... and yes I have the films as well...

He goes to the NY Times for an unbiased account of a LaMotta fight. Yer as classic as Brock!*L* That's like going to the Casablanca Times for a report on a Cerdan fight. Show me reports from several papers that support your claims. You can't, because there are none(and before you say it, yes I have posted unbiased accounts. In past posts on this subject. Look 'em up for reference).

Yes, Jake had a swollen knuckle after the fight. How do you know it was broken in round 2?? He's still whacking away with it. Doesn't appear to be in any pain to me. Sure it didn't happen in the later rounds?

If you had the films(which I doubt) you wouldn't be perpetuating these silly myths("LaMotta almost KO'd him in the first!" "Jake broke his hand in round 2!"). There's no evidence of it or anything else you say in the films.